jon@brahms.udel.edu (Jon Deutsch) (04/23/91)
About amiga demos:
There are a lot of them. They have been getting more and more complex.
They are becomming competitive! And *most* of the solid-vector/wild copper/
blitter-mania demos are all coming from EUROPE!
Why is this? Is this a cultural thing? Demos from the States tend to be
of the 'movie' genre or 'showanim's. This type of demo is entertaining,
but (hopefully) doesn't display the talent and mathematical ingenuity that
Americans like to claim they possess.
It just seems to me that from the evidence I've been shown,
-- Europeans tend to walk on the wild side of coding,
while Americans are happy making their nifty utilities and short movies.
-- Europeans tend to display more graphic, production, and music
talent than Americans do in their code.
-- Europeans seem to get the 'head start' on computing, seeing that the
average demo-writer in Europe is still in his teens.
-- European demos are very creative. Some demos are very entertaining.
-- European groups are competing -- who can make the coolest demo!?
This is not to say that America is a lame provider of software
for the Amiga. Far from it. Practically every productivity/
utility/system software package was developed in the States.
And, even a few very nice demos as well.
So, I'm not trying to start a flame war about which side of the
world is better in terms of the Amiga (sounds like a good TIME
headline!). Rather, I'm curious about the differences in types
and quality of software from each region and why such a difference
exists.
Sociologically yours,
Jon Deutsch
X-------------------+--------------+-----------------------X
| | |\ |>jon@brahms.udel.edu<| "For my 2 cents, |
| \|on |/eutsch |>>-----------------<<| I'd pay a dollar" |
X------+--------------------+--------------------+---------Xes1@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Ethan Solomita) (04/23/91)
In article <20691@brahms.udel.edu> jon@brahms.udel.edu (Jon Deutsch) writes: > >About amiga demos: > >There are a lot of them. They have been getting more and more complex. >They are becomming competitive! And *most* of the solid-vector/wild copper/ >blitter-mania demos are all coming from EUROPE! > >Why is this? Is this a cultural thing? Demos from the States tend to be >of the 'movie' genre or 'showanim's. This type of demo is entertaining, >but (hopefully) doesn't display the talent and mathematical ingenuity that >Americans like to claim they possess. > >It just seems to me that from the evidence I've been shown, > >-- Europeans tend to walk on the wild side of coding, > while Americans are happy making their nifty utilities and short movies. >-- Europeans tend to display more graphic, production, and music > talent than Americans do in their code. >-- Europeans seem to get the 'head start' on computing, seeing that the > average demo-writer in Europe is still in his teens. >-- European demos are very creative. Some demos are very entertaining. >-- European groups are competing -- who can make the coolest demo!? > Part of it is that Amigas aren't as big in America as in Europe, but I think the difference is as you say. In general, American demos have some focus, some storyline, and the computer's graphics work around that. The European demos are usually more kickass demos that use copper list tricks to get mindboggling graphics and animation. The American style is more 'creative' I think and the European is more technical know-how and hacking. It doesn't seem that the two can be merged easily, at least not if Europeans keep coding for 512K Amigas with one drive. I mean, how much data can be stored in a boot-block. 8-) That seems to be the main limitation at this point. American demos are often 1-2MB, or more, that were created on 8MB systems using hours and hours of ray-tracing or cartooning. It also seems that digitized graphics are bigger in the US, where as rock-music is bigger in Europe. -- Ethan Q: How many Comp Sci majors does it take to change a lightbulb A: None. It's a hardware problem.
kent@swrinde.nde.swri.edu (Kent D. Polk) (04/23/91)
In article <20691@brahms.udel.edu> jon@brahms.udel.edu (Jon Deutsch) writes: > >About amiga demos: > >It just seems to me that from the evidence I've been shown, > >-- Europeans seem to get the 'head start' on computing, seeing that the > average demo-writer in Europe is still in his teens. > > This is not to say that America is a lame provider of software > for the Amiga. Far from it. Practically every productivity/ > utility/system software package was developed in the States. > And, even a few very nice demos as well. I think you have hit on something here. I wonder if it isn't that comparatively few U.S. teenagers are developing software on any platform. I personally only know of a couple who do. Most are too busy going to the mall, etc. on weekends. Those who are older, with jobs, are writing the productivity software. I know I certainly have no time to even THINK of anything other that what I absolutely have to create. Sure wish we could harness all that European creativity and free time into better productivity software... ===================================================================== Kent Polk - Southwest Research Institute - kent@swrinde.nde.swri.edu "Duct Tape is like the Force... It has a Light Side, a Dark Side, and it holds the Universe together" =====================================================================
rjc@wookumz.gnu.ai.mit.edu (Ray Cromwell) (04/23/91)
In article <2491@swrinde.nde.swri.edu> kent@swrinde.nde.swri.edu (Kent D. Polk) writes: >In article <20691@brahms.udel.edu> jon@brahms.udel.edu (Jon Deutsch) writes: >> >>About amiga demos: >> >>It just seems to me that from the evidence I've been shown, >> >>-- Europeans seem to get the 'head start' on computing, seeing that the >> average demo-writer in Europe is still in his teens. >> >> This is not to say that America is a lame provider of software >> for the Amiga. Far from it. Practically every productivity/ >> utility/system software package was developed in the States. >> And, even a few very nice demos as well. > >I think you have hit on something here. I wonder if it isn't that >comparatively few U.S. teenagers are developing software on any >platform. I personally only know of a couple who do. Most are too busy >going to the mall, etc. on weekends. No, I don't think this is it. I hate to mention it, but take the C64 as an example, a huge amount of demos, bbs/telecom, and utility software was written by US teenagers. I'm willing to bet that there are more US teenagers using computers too. Compare the number of teen run BBS's vs the # in Europe. I think the programming ability is distributed about equally on both sides of the atlantic, it's the mere fact that in Europe, the Amiga is much more abundant than it is here. There are a number of US demo programmers who do it European style, I know 2 personally myself who live local to me. I'll try to upload some of their work to ab20, if I can find it on my disks. I noticed one thing about US programmers however, most of them prefer to program the OS and do high level programming. Check out the demo called 'solar.lzh' on abcfd20.larc.nasa.gov, it was programmed by an old friend of mine called "The Changeling." It's an old demo, but I think it's the first thing he did when he got his Amiga. >Sure wish we could harness all that European creativity and free time >into better productivity software... Most of the demo coders have a total disrespect for the operating system. The better and more ambitious ones usually go on to program games. Not meant as an insult. The number of code hackers on each side seems to be the same, take the # of programmers of PD type fish stuff, the Euro's and Yanks are about equal. I sure hope this doesn't start a America vs Euro flame war. One reason I replied, is because I know alot of people who do/did this kind of programming, and there isn't a dichotomy between the # and quality of teen "hackers" in he US and Europe. >===================================================================== >Kent Polk - Southwest Research Institute - kent@swrinde.nde.swri.edu > "Duct Tape is like the Force... >It has a Light Side, a Dark Side, and it holds the Universe together" >===================================================================== BTW, I've been programming since the age of 13, and I used to code demos on the C64. When I got an Amiga, is was time for college and without a monitor/debugger/freezer cartridge like I had on the C64, it is a little harder to bash the hardware because of GURU/Lockups and the long time it takes to reboot the whole environment. Also, my grades suffered during high school because of my fascination with programming and telecomputing. If the Amiga sales pick up in the US, perhaps some more demo coders may arise, but most of the new programmers I see arive on the Amiga are "looking for a good C compiler" so I guess assembly language hacking is losing it's popularity. -- / INET:rjc@gnu.ai.mit.edu * // The opinions expressed here do not \ | INET:r_cromwe@upr2.clu.net | \X/ in any way reflect the views of my self.| \ UUCP:uunet!tnc!m0023 * /
jlehmann@wpi.WPI.EDU (Jonas A. Lehmann) (04/23/91)
In article <20691@brahms.udel.edu> jon@brahms.udel.edu (Jon Deutsch) writes: > >About amiga demos: > >There are a lot of them. They have been getting more and more complex. >They are becomming competitive! And *most* of the solid-vector/wild copper/ >blitter-mania demos are all coming from EUROPE! > > > Sociologically yours, > > Jon Deutsch > > X-------------------+--------------+-----------------------X > | | |\ |>jon@brahms.udel.edu<| "For my 2 cents, | > | \|on |/eutsch |>>-----------------<<| I'd pay a dollar" | > X------+--------------------+--------------------+---------X First of all lets emphasize MOST demos come from europe ... NOT ALL!!! Here is a small continuation of this continuous demo talk...... No flame intended here either ...... I like bad programming :-) I don't know if people are actually as ignorant on this Net as they sometimes appear to be or if everyone is just too scared to admit that they do know some things about piracy, thinking that it might be illegal to know about it. Well, I know about drugs (at least a little) but I don't use them and I know a little about the piracy scene but don't belong to it. This is not the piracy scene where Mr. X. in Taiwan sells copies of WordPerfect for $10 in the back of his shop (no racism intended) but the kiddie scene which is probably as bad sometimes. Why does it seem that demo coding is more popular and advanced in Europe. Well, I think it all leads back to the early days of kid's computing in the early 80s. I think this is a brief and general overview of some of the development that took place although I am sure others remember better. In Germany where I lived at that time, we were all switching from Atari game console type devices to the C64. Why?! Well definetely not because we were interested in BASIC programming and we thought the C64 was such a great machine .... most switched because they had friends who had one. When I was in 7th grade, I think 40-60% of my class owned a C64 with at least a tape recorder and 50-60% of those had a floppy drive. Kids don't have too much money and mom and dad sure didn't wan't to buy these little casettes every month for big $$$! Kids got together at school and in their neighborhood and started sharing what they had. This sharing got tougher however as software companies didn't like this criminal behavior. But in 7th grade, who was really informed?! I remember reading some computer magazines at that time (M&T) that surely in the early days mentioned NOTHING about this being illegal. Copy protection grew tougher and tougher and the removing of protection in order to share with your friends became tougher and tougher. Kids of course were proud to have been able to remove the protection and be able to "give" it to others. Kids formed groups (like small companies). Some would provide originals (who knows how), some would remove protection and some would spread software around. These groups gave themselves names exotic ones (RadWar?! GCS?!). Demos, well .... when a group in Bavaria released a program unprotected first, they wanted to make sure that everyone knew that they had a copy so fast only thanks to this group. People from each group sat down and wrote simple programs or edited games to display their names. Often, other groups they were friends with were greeted, lame groups were attacked, members listed and rumors spread in these small programs. Yet, each group wanted to have their small program look better and better. Soon there was some competition in who could write the coolest programs to spread news (demos/intros or "standalone" vs "with a program"). People who were talented would spend their entire time coding such cool programs. Soon the trivial stage of programming the C64 had been exceeded and only a few top programmers could bring out the extreme and close to impossible stuff on their machines. Demo writing had become nearly as important as cracking. Funny was to see demo routines used by software companies in their game intros! And even funnier was to see a demo by a pirate saying that he was going to release this new product for the C64 and a couple of weeks later it was released officially and commercially. Naturally, the scene had a un-protected copy faster than the commercial world. Well, hardware advanced and soon the amiga was released. Groups started switching to the amiga and the same trends as were seen on the C64 started appearing on the Amiga. I remember some early demos were even written in C and said clearly in the scrollers that C was much better for demo-writing than assembler .. they lost that one after some weeks :-) Some people accelled a lot faster than others in programming the hardware of the amiga. Some of you must remember Sodan & Magician 42 and their demos like "Tech Tech" "CopperShock" etc etc ... truly amazing demos for that time. Funny to see Sodan announce a game with big characters and cool graphics and then see "Sword of Sodan" exactly match his description and see many nifty routines from his demo in the game itself. Many others have gone the same way. Although there are many amiga users in America as well, I don't think the interaction between the users is as great here as there. The scene is just much different in europe and doesn't just evolve around BBSing like it does here in the USA. I mean I have heard about TONS of copy parties and legal programming parties in Europe just since Christmas but I have yet to hear of one big one here in the USA. Anyway .... PIRACY IS DEFINETLY WRONG AND ILLEGAL, MOST demo coders PROGRAM WITH NO OR POOR STYLE, AMERICANS do know how to program (not better or worse), EUROPEANS, AUSTRALIANS, etc also know how to program, SOME IBM people actually program DEMOS as well. I am sure some people from Europe have more exact memories of those old days. ADDENDUM: Pretty sad observations Some things are really sad to see. In the early days pirates used to rely on information from magazines such as C64 and Happy Computer (M&T) for reviews and stuff and to post adds. In the early days the permitted close to ANYTHING to be written there .. I still have OLD copies and can prove that (well they are in Switzerland and I am in USA). Today these magazines have become stricter and do not allow direct stuff relating to piracy ... yet they know that is what sells. I picked up a copy of "Amiga" by M&T I think this christmas in switzerland and saw a routine for rotating brushes using the blitter and it was written using SEKA!!! This is a MAGAZINE. SEKA is fine .. but they were using a modified version ... I think it was MasterSEKA which is NOT LEGAL ... that is easy to see since the legal old version (1.5?) does not support commands like INCBIN or >EXTERN etc ...... Furthermore, companies like Data Becker who at a time used to bust a lot of pirates for pirating their products, are not that innocent themselves. Don't they know (YES THEY DO) that many buy their books to use as manuals for pirated compilers, assemblers. I have their machine language book and it has a whole section on how to use SEKA with all commands and options. Furthermore their C book is the same way .... introductory course to Lattice and Manx! They know what sells!!! Also, Red Sector Inc. is a pirate group although they do a lot of legal stuff as well. They programmed a utility called RSI DemoMaker or something like that which is used to make Amiga Demos without coding. This product by a pirate group was RELEASED and DISTRIBUTED by Data Becker as far as I know..........get real.....anything for money it seems! No offense to RSI at all! Enough said ... we are all dirty some how. nobody is perfect. My high school used to copy MS-DOS! Jonas - jlehmann@wpi.wpi.edu
wright@etsuv2.etsu.edu (BRIAN WRIGHT) (04/23/91)
In article <2491@swrinde.nde.swri.edu>, kent@swrinde.nde.swri.edu (Kent D. Polk) writes... >In article <20691@brahms.udel.edu> jon@brahms.udel.edu (Jon Deutsch) writes: >> >>About amiga demos: >> >>It just seems to me that from the evidence I've been shown, >> >>-- Europeans seem to get the 'head start' on computing, seeing that the >> average demo-writer in Europe is still in his teens. > >I think you have hit on something here. I wonder if it isn't that >comparatively few U.S. teenagers are developing software on any >platform. I personally only know of a couple who do. Most are too busy >going to the mall, etc. on weekends. I may be flamed for what I am about to say, but here it is anyway. :-) I think this comes to the difference between Europe and the US. Teens in America are very short on attention span. I think this comes from watching television too much. I mean, the commercials are so fast, the shows are so fast it teaches the teens to have a short attention span. Programming something like a demo takes patience and perserverance that only limited numbers of teens here actually have. I know my attention span as a teen was very limited and I didn't feel like I want to spend my free time learning a computer. I think it also comes to computer literacy too. A lot of teens are afraid of learning the computer as being branded a nerd or something. Peer pressure is always a factor as to what teens will and won't do. Obviously, in Europe it is 'COOL' to code demos. Here you'd be branded a computer nerd or a brain if you coded demos, no matter how cool they were. Teens don't like to be branded, they want to be one of the crowd. >Those who are older, with jobs, are writing the productivity software. >I know I certainly have no time to even THINK of anything other that >what I absolutely have to create. Cash is always on everyone's mind. That is how to get cash. I think (and I may be flamed for generalizations) that teens here are pushed by their parents to be bread winners early on. As well as teens want to 'go to the movies' 'mall' 'have a car' 'eat out' 'buy clothes' etc etc. So they need cash. To get cash they have to get a job. Hence, less time for coding. This isn't to say the European teens don't want this too, but more European teens choose to do computer coding than do American teens. I think it partly because of the peer and parent pressures here and probably several other factors as well that keep teens from learning to code. >Sure wish we could harness all that European creativity and free time >into better productivity software... Yes, they could make some awesome productivity software with all of their coding ability. I know that some really awesome Multimedia software could come from them. Unfortunately, most coders do not like the multitasking part of the Amiga. They prefer to hit the hardware and by pass the slow multitasking. Just to think, having some of the vectorgraphic, vectorball, plasma, copper tricks at your disposal along with IFF images and sounds all rolled into a productivity multimedia package. I can't imagine. >===================================================================== >Kent Polk - Southwest Research Institute - kent@swrinde.nde.swri.edu > "Duct Tape is like the Force... >It has a Light Side, a Dark Side, and it holds the Universe together" >===================================================================== -------------------------------------------------------------- Brian Wright wright%etsuvax2@ricevm1.rice.edu or wright@etsuvax2.bitnet --------------------------------------------------------------
kudla@rpi.edu (Robert J. Kudla) (04/23/91)
You forgot:
-- European groups tend to bag the operating system and often the
filesystem as well.
Myself, I got bored by the rotating text/symbol demos with
metamorphosing and Eurodisco as background muzak about 3 weeks after
getting my Amiga. I still like the Eurodisco, but sometimes wish it
would get a little more creative (like the people who've sampled
Zoolook and Boing Boom Tschaak and made them sound like remixes of the
actual tunes) and seeing the same twisty turny things on my screen for
ten minutes just doesn't do anything for me. Gimme an Eric Schwartz
cartoon *any* day.
Robert Jude Kudla <kudla@rpi.edu>
No more bars! No more cages! Just rollerskating, disco music, and
the occasional light show....rjc@geech.gnu.ai.mit.edu (Ray Cromwell) (04/23/91)
In article <1991Apr23.071311.46295@vaxb.acs.unt.edu> wright@etsuv2.etsu.edu writes: >>I think you have hit on something here. I wonder if it isn't that >>comparatively few U.S. teenagers are developing software on any >>platform. I personally only know of a couple who do. Most are too busy >>going to the mall, etc. on weekends. > >I may be flamed for what I am about to say, but here it is anyway. :-) > >I think this comes to the difference between Europe and the US. Teens in >America are very short on attention span. I think this comes from watching >television too much. I mean, the commercials are so fast, the shows are so fast >it teaches the teens to have a short attention span. Programming something >like a demo takes patience and perserverance that only limited numbers of teens >here actually have. I know my attention span as a teen was very limited and I >didn't feel like I want to spend my free time learning a computer. I think it >also comes to computer literacy too. A lot of teens are afraid of learning the >computer as being branded a nerd or something. Peer pressure is always a >factor as to what teens will and won't do. Obviously, in Europe it is 'COOL' >to code demos. Here you'd be branded a computer nerd or a brain if you coded >demos, no matter how cool they were. Teens don't like to be branded, they want >to be one of the crowd. This is not a flame, but this simply is not the case. The C64 proved this. For instance, a personal friend of mine "Wanderer" has programmed over 100 demos on the C64, yes 100. He runs a bbs now with a 80 meg harddrive full of his demos from 1985-1990. On the C64, there were many American teen coders (in the hundreds). For instance the group I was in had 4 programmers, all age 15-18. Personally, I have about 50 disks full of American C64 demos. Yes, in the US you are branded a "nerd" for being smart, but most of us didn't care, it was the competition and "fame" of writing demos/intros that fueled our desire. The computer was a seperate world. In fact, the Computer Underground is very much a totally different world with different moral and social values. What stopped my coding, was flunking the 12th grade and having to make classes up. I was more enthusiastic about finishing a demo/intro than doing my term paper. The Amiga is not as popular in the US as it is in Europe, but try looking at the number of software done on the C64 and IBM by teens. >>Those who are older, with jobs, are writing the productivity software. >>I know I certainly have no time to even THINK of anything other that >>what I absolutely have to create. > >Cash is always on everyone's mind. That is how to get cash. I think (and I >may be flamed for generalizations) that teens here are pushed by their >parents to be bread winners early on. As well as teens want to 'go to the >movies' 'mall' 'have a car' 'eat out' 'buy clothes' etc etc. So they need >cash. To get cash they have to get a job. Hence, less time for coding. This >isn't to say the European teens don't want this too, but more European teens >choose to do computer coding than do American teens. I think it partly because >of the peer and parent pressures here and probably several other factors as >well that keep teens from learning to code. No, more European teens don't choose to code compared to Americans. Perhaps on the Amiga they do, but not on the C64/IBM. For instance, the sheer number of cracking groups in Europe outnumber the US not because of the # of programmers, but because the US crackers had better distribution. In Europe (on the C64) most crack groups duplicated each others releases because cracks were sent by mail(usually only one member of the group had a modem, 300 baud usually, and the cracks had to be mailed to him for uploading to the US). In America, mostly every member of the group had a 1200/2400 baud modem, and every group had about 2-3 bbses where their cracks could be downloaded from. Any duplicate releases were frowned upon. New US crack groups would pop up every month but they could never compete with the "big three" since the big groups had better connections and usually got new software the very day it hit the shelves. Dispite this, there were still hundreds of US coders (probably an underestimate) dating all the way back to the C64's release. Also, DEMOS aren't the only kind of coding you can do, there were literally tens of thousands of other kinds of programs done, just check out QuantumLink. And concerning demos, they are not the most difficult kind of programming on the Amiga, they are the easiest. Spend about an hour in the hardware manual once and if your good at algorithms, in a few days you'll have yourself a library of routines for drawinbg lines and moving bobs. The OS by volume, is much harder to learn because there are so many structures and functions to know. When your programming asm on the Amiga, all you need to know are the hardware registers, any structures you use are yours so you already know what they contain. >>Sure wish we could harness all that European creativity and free time >>into better productivity software... > >Yes, they could make some awesome productivity software with all of their >coding ability. I know that some really awesome Multimedia software could >come from them. Unfortunately, most coders do not like the multitasking part >of the Amiga. They prefer to hit the hardware and by pass the slow >multitasking. Just to think, having some of the vectorgraphic, vectorball, >plasma, copper tricks at your disposal along with IFF images and sounds all >rolled into a productivity multimedia package. I can't imagine. There is nothing "awesome" about copper tricks and vectorballs. They are easy once you shut the OS down. Multitasking on the Amiga is not slow, graphics.library has just too much overhead. Eurocoders don't hit the hardware because its faster, they do it because it's easier. How many teens can afford to become a developer, purchase the autodocs, rkms, devcon notes, and the AmigaDOS manual? Do you think those teens purchase Devpac or Seka? I doubt most European or American teens could write a program like AmigaVision, it's too much work. Most demo coding is done is a week, usually less, with the majority of time taken up programming tools you need and waiting for the graphics/music to get done. >-------------------------------------------------------------- >Brian Wright >wright%etsuvax2@ricevm1.rice.edu or wright@etsuvax2.bitnet >-------------------------------------------------------------- One thing I am sick of in the US is the way intelligence and creativity are put down. Why does being a "nerd" have bad connotations? If anything, it should be encouraged. I wonder how it is in Europe and Japan? -- / INET:rjc@gnu.ai.mit.edu * // The opinions expressed here do not \ | INET:r_cromwe@upr2.clu.net | \X/ in any way reflect the views of my self.| \ UUCP:uunet!tnc!m0023 * /
jlehmann@wpi.WPI.EDU (Jonas A. Lehmann) (04/24/91)
>----------------------------------------------------------------------- >his demos from 1985-1990. On the C64, there were many American teen >coders (in the hundreds). For instance the group I was in had 4 programmers, >all age 15-18. Personally, I have about 50 disks full of American >C64 demos. Yes, in the US you are branded a "nerd" for being smart, but >most of us didn't care, it was the competition and "fame" of writing >demos/intros that fueled our desire. The computer was a seperate world. >In fact, the Computer Underground is very much a totally different >world with different moral and social values. What stopped my coding, >was flunking the 12th grade and having to make classes up. I was >more enthusiastic about finishing a demo/intro than doing my term paper. >The Amiga is not as popular in the US as it is in Europe, but try looking >at the number of software done on the C64 and IBM by teens. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- I have seen some pretty well written American Demos as well for the C64. Although I dare to say that even on the C64, although a lot of Americans were coding, the europeans still did more. On nerd: I think ALL of us care when people throw negative words at us. Nerd just doesn't happen to be a nice word to be labeled with. However, some people (especially the smarter ones) know how to live with the ignorance of others and learn to live with the name. I must admit, I was never called NERD in German high school because I programmed ... but then I didnt spend ALL my time doing that .... but when I switched to the American International School in Zurich, I did hear that word once in a while. > No, more European teens don't choose to code compared to Americans. Perhaps >on the Amiga they do, but not on the C64/IBM. For instance, the sheer >number of cracking groups in Europe outnumber the US not because of >the # of programmers, but because the US crackers had better distribution. >In Europe (on the C64) most crack groups duplicated each others releases >because cracks were sent by mail(usually only one member of the group had >a modem, 300 baud usually, and the cracks had to be mailed to him for >uploading to the US). In America, mostly every member of the group had >a 1200/2400 baud modem, and every group had about 2-3 bbses where their >cracks could be downloaded from. Any duplicate releases were frowned >upon. New US crack groups would pop up every month but they could never >compete with the "big three" since the big groups had better connections and >usually got new software the very day it hit the shelves. Dispite this, >there were still hundreds of US coders (probably an underestimate) dating >all the way back to the C64's release. Also, DEMOS aren't the only >kind of coding you can do, there were literally tens of thousands of >other kinds of programs done, just check out QuantumLink. This BBSing really shocked me. I used to live in Switzerland until 3 years ago when I came here to study. People in Zurich used to meet in the local software stores to copy programs (even long before the titles were in the shop). Mailing was popular and BBSing was just too expensive, they said. This still allowed for titles to be hot for at least a few weeks. A one-two week old release, people were still bragging about. When I came to USA, I bought a modem since people told me that LOCAL PHONECALLS WERE FREE! WOW! I soon started to explore the local BBS scene. The few BBSs in Switzerland had been all PD or run by companies. Here, I would log on as a new user on most local BBSs and after a quick call-back by the sysop, I would be allowed to see all these commercial files. ?!?! I was shocked to some extent. I have now been here 3 years and know now that the pirate BBS system is very sophisticated here in USA. I have even heard rumors of international pirate email. But, just pick up a copy of some pirate PD diskmagazines and you will find tons of european BBS, especially in countries like Germany, Sweden and Holland. Things are changing and although the Americans clearly were far ahead in distribution due to their advancement in BBSing, I think the Europeans are catching up now. > There is nothing "awesome" about copper tricks and vectorballs. They are >easy once you shut the OS down. Multitasking on the Amiga is not slow, >graphics.library has just too much overhead. Eurocoders don't hit the >hardware because its faster, they do it because it's easier. How many >teens can afford to become a developer, purchase the autodocs, rkms, devcon >notes, and the AmigaDOS manual? Do you think those teens purchase >Devpac or Seka? I doubt most European or American teens could write >a program like AmigaVision, it's too much work. Most demo coding is done is >a week, usually less, with the majority of time taken up programming >tools you need and waiting for the graphics/music to get done. NOTHING AWESOME about copper tricks and vectorballs ... well ... I am sorry ... IT IS NOT trivial to code some of the stuff that new demos present. I think this is TOTALLY unfair and not giving any credit. I admit these features may be "hacks" but it just is not nice to give no credit. Some features of the new demos are just amazing and the fact that some of them have never been implemented before shows some sign of creativity and the ability to program the AMIGA not AMIGADOS and should definetly receive some respect. NOBODY is perfect. > >>-------------------------------------------------------------- >>Brian Wright >>wright%etsuvax2@ricevm1.rice.edu or wright@etsuvax2.bitnet >>-------------------------------------------------------------- > > One thing I am sick of in the US is the way intelligence and creativity >are put down. Why does being a "nerd" have bad connotations? If anything, >it should be encouraged. I wonder how it is in Europe and Japan? > Being called NERD aint nice in Europe either and I am sure in Japan it is the same thing. But I think in the US, you are faster categorized as a NERD than elsewhere. >-- >/ INET:rjc@gnu.ai.mit.edu * // The opinions expressed here do not \ >| INET:r_cromwe@upr2.clu.net | \X/ in any way reflect the views of my self.| >\ UUCP:uunet!tnc!m0023 * / FLAMES - nah - Jonas - jlehmann@wpi.wpi.edu
greg@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Greg Harp) (04/24/91)
In article <20691@brahms.udel.edu> jon@brahms.udel.edu (Jon Deutsch) writes: > >-- Europeans tend to walk on the wild side of coding, > while Americans are happy making their nifty utilities and short movies. This is one I've never been able to figure out. It seems that Europeans and Americans have always been at odds about whether one should stick to the rules. In the States we tend to scorn breaking the rules, and in Europe they think we're crazy. Maybe it's a cultural thing. The same goes for software piracy. Most Americans look down on it (some do while quietly playing their pirated games :) while Europeans tend to think nothing of it. Please note that I'm not saying that Europeans are horrible people or anything. I'm just noting differences in our societies. >-- Europeans tend to display more graphic, production, and music > talent than Americans do in their code. I agree that Europeans tend to put more flash and music into their demos, but most of it seems to be techinical skill. At least as MHO, much of it isn't very original, though. I've heard about a dozen original-sounding songs in demos, and all the rest are kind of same-old, same-old. Also, the rotating shapes and ga-zill-o-bob demos are getting pretty old. >-- Europeans seem to get the 'head start' on computing, seeing that the > average demo-writer in Europe is still in his teens. I'm not sure that's much different than over here in the States, though. Eric Schwartz is still in his teens, I believe. Ben Owen (many of you may not recognize the name, but check out his two animations "Flyer" and "Flyer II" at the ab20 archive in /amiga/graphics/anims/BenOwen -- more to come) is still in high school. One of the reasons I think more productivity software comes out of the US and more demos/games come out of Europe is that over here we're all trying to make a buck. We're greedy. :) -- Greg Harp |"I was there to match my intellect on national TV, | against a plumber and an architect, both with a PhD." greg@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu| -- "I Lost on Jeopardy," Weird Al Yankovic
jon@chopin.udel.edu (Jon Deutsch) (04/24/91)
In article <1991Apr23.164302.6289@mintaka.lcs.mit.edu> rjc@geech.gnu.ai.mit.edu (Ray Cromwell) writes: >In article <1991Apr23.071311.46295@vaxb.acs.unt.edu> wright@etsuv2.etsu.edu writes: > And concerning demos, they are not the most difficult kind of programming >on the Amiga, they are the easiest. Spend about an hour in the hardware >manual once and if your good at algorithms, in a few days you'll have >yourself a library of routines for drawinbg lines and moving bobs. >The OS by volume, is much harder to learn because there are so many >structures and functions to know. When your programming asm on the Amiga, >all you need to know are the hardware registers, any structures you >use are yours so you already know what they contain. > >>>Sure wish we could harness all that European creativity and free time >>>into better productivity software... >> > There is nothing "awesome" about copper tricks and vectorballs. They are >easy once you shut the OS down. Multitasking on the Amiga is not slow, >graphics.library has just too much overhead. Eurocoders don't hit the >hardware because its faster, they do it because it's easier. How many >teens can afford to become a developer, purchase the autodocs, rkms, devcon >notes, and the AmigaDOS manual? Do you think those teens purchase >Devpac or Seka? I doubt most European or American teens could write >a program like AmigaVision, it's too much work. Most demo coding is done is >a week, usually less, with the majority of time taken up programming >tools you need and waiting for the graphics/music to get done. > (wow -- a follow-up to my own original post -- ) OK, maybe there isn't anything AWESOME about copper tricks and vectorballs... BUT what is awesome is what these "Euro-kids" actually *DO* with these tricks!! To get the speed and smoothness of such complex animations without system bogging *is* very difficult programming -- EFFICIENCY! There are many many demos (euro and us) that will slow down and speed up do to system overhead. The *good* demos won't do this - no matter what they are doing. You can't just say these kids are taking the easy way out by writing demos. Another *big* thing that is being overlooked is the amazing artistry that is involved with many of these productions! It some, the graphics are superior to things I've seen as sporting event intros! These kids could make a lot of money if they knew how to channel their talents! Artistry doesn't stop at graphics, either -- I CANNOT believe what these kids are doing with a measely 4 voices of sound!!! WOW- for instance, Cryptoburner's demo ("crb1.exe" on xanth) has a soundtrack that rivals anything that *I'VE* written or produced on my multi-thousand dollar MIDI setup in my room (for what they're working on, at least). There are some beautiful/funky/creative/awesome scorers out there. It's amazing. It seems as though quite a lot of talented musicians are spending a lot of time scoring these demos, and I send kudos out to them -- hopefully they will take it one step further and actually do something financially constructive with these amazing talents. > > One thing I am sick of in the US is the way intelligence and creativity >are put down. Why does being a "nerd" have bad connotations? If anything, >it should be encouraged. I wonder how it is in Europe and Japan? Intelligence and creativity are NOT put down in this country. What is put down are people who focus their entire lives on subject, and don't care to spread themselves out personally or socially. Someone who spends their entire childhood coding is considered a freak (or "nerd") because man is a social beast: It is not socially acceptable to concentrate 100% of your time and energy into such an abstract and antisocial hobbie. There are many intelligent and creative people who learn how to manage their time. These people are able to function normally in our current society, but are still able to code to their heart's content - it just means you have to find a *balance*. That's the key word -- balance. Pseudosociologically yours, Jon Deutsch X-------------------+--------------+-----------------------X | | |\ |>jon@brahms.udel.edu<| "For my 2 cents, | | \|on |/eutsch |>>-----------------<<| I'd pay a dollar" | X------+--------------------+--------------------+---------X
c506634@UMCVMB.missouri.edu (Eric Edwards) (04/24/91)
In article <20691@brahms.udel.edu> jon@brahms.udel.edu (Jon Deutsch) writes: > > > About amiga demos: > -- European demos are very creative. Some demos are very entertaining. Oh, I really should know better than to respond to this but what the heck. I strongly disagree that European demos are more creative. In fact the problem with a good number of European demos is that they are NOT creative. If I see another block of smooth scrolling text or another star field I'm going to scream! American demos tend to be people who are primariliy artists. Long on creativity and interesting subject matter. They use primarily canned annimation systems. Becuase of the limitations of such systems the implimentation comes up short. There just aren't enough frames, there just isn't enough memory to do everything. You get the feeling like: Wow! This is cool but it would sooooo much better if it were done on amiga 4000 with 32 meg of ram. Most European demos are done by people who are primarily programmers. Using tightly optimized assembler and going directly to the hardware they achieve truly amazing implimentions. Everything is very smooth and fast. The trouble is not nearly enough effort is put into chosing the subject matter and the imagary. Too many have a very "flat" look and use the same, simplistic plan. A single view point view point where stuff moves arround gets old after awhile. The really good demos achieve a ballance between these aproaches. I happen to like Walker II. Lots of good imagary. Fairly smooth action. All this comes with the penalty that you need 3 meg to run it. Eric Edwards: c506634 @ "I say we take off and nuke the entire site Inet: umcvmb.missouri.edu from orbit. It's the only way to be sure." Bitnet: umcvmb.bitnet -- Sigourney Weaver, _Aliens_
rjc@geech.gnu.ai.mit.edu (Ray Cromwell) (04/24/91)
In article <16972@chopin.udel.edu> jon@chopin.udel.edu (Jon Deutsch) writes: >In article <1991Apr23.164302.6289@mintaka.lcs.mit.edu> rjc@geech.gnu.ai.mit.edu (Ray Cromwell) writes: >>In article <1991Apr23.071311.46295@vaxb.acs.unt.edu> wright@etsuv2.etsu.edu writes: >(wow -- a follow-up to my own original post -- ) > > OK, maybe there isn't anything AWESOME about copper tricks and > vectorballs... BUT what is awesome is what these "Euro-kids" > actually *DO* with these tricks!! To get the speed and smoothness > of such complex animations without system bogging *is* very > difficult programming -- EFFICIENCY! There are many many demos > (euro and us) that will slow down and speed up do to system overhead. > The *good* demos won't do this - no matter what they are doing. > You can't just say these kids are taking the easy way out by writing > demos. Almost none of the Euro demos I've seen use the OS. They completely disable everything and perform a take over. As for programming style, take a look at "sinscroll.lzh" in amiga/demos/euro on ab20. This is the most sloppy poorly coded thing I have ever seen yet it is smooth as hell (in PAL mode). I don't think it will run on >68000's either since I'm sure I saw a few "move sr,<ea>"'s in there. > Another *big* thing that is being overlooked is the amazing > artistry that is involved with many of these productions! > It some, the graphics are superior to things I've seen > as sporting event intros! These kids could make a lot of money > if they knew how to channel their talents! No arguement there, however the art is not "lightyears" ahead of what is done by professionals, or Eric Schwartz. > Artistry doesn't stop at graphics, either -- > I CANNOT believe what these kids are doing with a measely 4 > voices of sound!!! WOW- for instance, Cryptoburner's demo > ("crb1.exe" on xanth) has a soundtrack that rivals anything > that *I'VE* written or produced on my multi-thousand dollar > MIDI setup in my room (for what they're working on, at least). > There are some beautiful/funky/creative/awesome scorers out there. > It's amazing. It seems as though quite a lot of talented musicians > are spending a lot of time scoring these demos, > and I send kudos out to them -- hopefully they will > take it one step further and actually do something financially > constructive with these amazing talents. Some of the music is good, however alot of it just the same old rhythms with different samples. Some of the old Rob Hubbard, Martin Galaway, and Ben Daglish music from the C64 sounds better. >> >> One thing I am sick of in the US is the way intelligence and creativity >>are put down. Why does being a "nerd" have bad connotations? If anything, >>it should be encouraged. I wonder how it is in Europe and Japan? > > Intelligence and creativity are NOT put down in this country. > What is put down are people who focus their entire lives on > subject, and don't care to spread themselves out personally > or socially. Someone who spends their entire childhood coding > is considered a freak (or "nerd") because man is a social beast: > It is not socially acceptable to concentrate 100% of your time > and energy into such an abstract and antisocial hobbie. I am not talking 100%, I am talking about excelling at certain things. Perhaps you haven't been in highschool for awhile, but basically anyone in the computer or chess club was _automatically_ a nerd no matter what his social habits were. If you did too well in your classes (like having >3.8 GPA) you were probably a nerd. The old stereotypical bifocal geek with pocket protector and pants that were too small is a myth. Care to explain why your "cool" it you spent 95-100% of your time taking drugs and hanging onthe street corner? > There are many intelligent and creative people who learn how > to manage their time. These people are able to function normally > in our current society, but are still able to code to their heart's > content - it just means you have to find a *balance*. > > That's the key word -- balance. Yea, it sounds like a nice plan, but it has nothing to do with how people choose to label you. Try getting a date by telling a woman your a physicist, there was a big thread about this in sci.physics and alt.sex a while ago. -- / INET:rjc@gnu.ai.mit.edu * // The opinions expressed here do not \ | INET:r_cromwe@upr2.clu.net | \X/ in any way reflect the views of my self.| \ UUCP:uunet!tnc!m0023 * /
wright@etsuv2.etsu.edu (BRIAN WRIGHT) (04/24/91)
In article <1991Apr23.164302.6289@mintaka.lcs.mit.edu>, rjc@geech.gnu.ai.mit.edu (Ray Cromwell) writes... >In article <1991Apr23.071311.46295@vaxb.acs.unt.edu> wright@etsuv2.etsu.edu writes: [My stuff deleted] > This is not a flame, but this simply is not the case. The C64 proved this. The C64 isn't the Amiga and the Amiga isn't the C64. My observations are based on the Amiga coders, not C64 coders. As such, your observations may be valid for the C64, but not necessarily for the Amiga. The C64 cannot prove anything for the Amiga market, the markets are not the same. >For instance, a personal friend of mine "Wanderer" has programmed over 100 >demos on the C64, yes 100. He runs a bbs now with a 80 meg harddrive full of >his demos from 1985-1990. On the C64, there were many American teen >coders (in the hundreds). For instance the group I was in had 4 programmers, >all age 15-18. Personally, I have about 50 disks full of American >C64 demos. Yes, in the US you are branded a "nerd" for being smart, but >most of us didn't care, it was the competition and "fame" of writing >demos/intros that fueled our desire. The computer was a seperate world. >In fact, the Computer Underground is very much a totally different >world with different moral and social values. What stopped my coding, >was flunking the 12th grade and having to make classes up. I was >more enthusiastic about finishing a demo/intro than doing my term paper. >The Amiga is not as popular in the US as it is in Europe, but try looking >at the number of software done on the C64 and IBM by teens. The number of software produced by teens on the C64 hardly justifies what motivates the Amiga coders. >>cash. To get cash they have to get a job. Hence, less time for coding. This >>isn't to say the European teens don't want this too, but more European teens >>choose to do computer coding than do American teens. I think it partly because >>of the peer and parent pressures here and probably several other factors as >>well that keep teens from learning to code. > > No, more European teens don't choose to code compared to Americans. Perhaps >on the Amiga they do, but not on the C64/IBM. For instance, the sheer Well, since I know absolutely nothing of the IBM coders, I can't make ANY observations there. As I stated at the top, however, my observations are meant for the Amiga (since this *IS* an Amiga group--Read the subject). >number of cracking groups in Europe outnumber the US not because of >the # of programmers, but because the US crackers had better distribution How does US distribution affect the number of USCoders to EuroCoders? Not sure what you are trying to say. Is it that because modems aren't readily available in Europe that more people were having to code their own stuff where almost everyone in the US had a modem, they just spread what was already coded so that US coders had no need to code? That's how I interpreted this. >In Europe (on the C64) most crack groups duplicated each others releases >because cracks were sent by mail(usually only one member of the group had >a modem, 300 baud usually, and the cracks had to be mailed to him for >uploading to the US). In America, mostly every member of the group had >a 1200/2400 baud modem, and every group had about 2-3 bbses where their >cracks could be downloaded from. Any duplicate releases were frowned >upon. New US crack groups would pop up every month but they could never >compete with the "big three" since the big groups had better connections and >usually got new software the very day it hit the shelves. Dispite this, >there were still hundreds of US coders (probably an underestimate) dating >all the way back to the C64's release. Also, DEMOS aren't the only >kind of coding you can do, there were literally tens of thousands of >other kinds of programs done, just check out QuantumLink. Yes, I realize that demos aren't the only type of coding. But since, my observations are limited to only the Amiga coders and not necessarily C64 or IBM coders, DEMOS are a *BIG* part of the coding that is being done on Amiga. Isn't QuantumLink for C64 users only? If so, how do you expect me to check it out with my Amiga. > And concerning demos, they are not the most difficult kind of programming >on the Amiga, they are the easiest. Spend about an hour in the hardware >manual once and if your good at algorithms, in a few days you'll have >yourself a library of routines for drawinbg lines and moving bobs. Easy to someone who may already know 68000 assembly backwards and forwards. For someone who doesn't know assembly at all, it *IS* a bit harder than that. Yes, you don't have OS overhead and OS structures to contend with, but the fact is that you STILL must know assembly to code a demo. > There is nothing "awesome" about copper tricks and vectorballs. They are >easy once you shut the OS down. Multitasking on the Amiga is not slow, Again, easy to someone who knows 68000 assembly. >graphics.library has just too much overhead. Eurocoders don't hit the >hardware because its faster, they do it because it's easier. How many >teens can afford to become a developer, purchase the autodocs, rkms, devcon >notes, and the AmigaDOS manual? Do you think those teens purchase >Devpac or Seka? I doubt most European or American teens could write >a program like AmigaVision, it's too much work. Most demo coding is done is >a week, usually less, with the majority of time taken up programming >tools you need and waiting for the graphics/music to get done. Very few teens can become developers, but that doesn't mean that they can't use their coding ability to produce useable software beyond just a demo or a command line utility. In the PD area there are lots of really good software packages, but if you notice (on the Amiga anyway) most are written in 'C', not assembly (probably not coder written). There are some that written in assembly, but very few. Some coders have gone onto produce games. Games are fine, but what about productivity software. Yes, AmigaVision would take a lot of work, but it is possible. And probably a lot faster in assembly. AmigaVision was probably written in C. > One thing I am sick of in the US is the way intelligence and creativity >are put down. Why does being a "nerd" have bad connotations? If anything, >it should be encouraged. I wonder how it is in Europe and Japan? A 'nerd' is just something that you don't want to be. Not to your friends. It isn't cool, hip, happening or anything else. Like I said before, teens do not like to be branded anything, but cool. Being a 'nerd' isn't. As for creativity, I'd say it is equal across the fence. US and Europe are equally creative, but in different ways. Here the demos tend to be short movies and anims which are as equally creative as the Eurodemos. Anti-Lemmings anim, Walker anim and all of those are very creative, but then so are the Eurodemos. It's the difference between having 512k and 6 megs. Once enough Eurocoders have 500/2000/3000's with 1 or 2 megs chipram, some even more incredible demos will come out. To you the coding may be easy, but for those of use who don't know assembly, it's going to be HARD. One thing I must state, MOST, if not 98%, of your argument was with C64 coders. Please make note that *MY* observations are for the Amiga community as this (I thought) was obvious, since we are in an Amiga group and the subject is AMIGA DEMOS: Europe VS. USA. >-- >/ INET:rjc@gnu.ai.mit.edu * // The opinions expressed here do not \ >| INET:r_cromwe@upr2.clu.net | \X/ in any way reflect the views of my self.| >\ UUCP:uunet!tnc!m0023 * / -------------------------------------------------------------- Brian Wright wright%etsuvax2@ricevm1.rice.edu or wright@etsuvax2.bitnet -------------------------------------------------------------- Standard Disclaimer.... not my words and all that jazz.
WRW105@psuvm.psu.edu (Bill Wilkinson) (04/25/91)
A friend and I just had a similar conversation last weekend. He seems to
think that it's due to the saturation of programmers who "grew up" on other
systems (read IBM's), and programming for the Amiga's multitasking environment
is sufficiently different that they just haven't mastered it yet.
Or maybe not...
The Infamous Double W
_______________________________________________________________________________
"Blasting, Billowing, Bursting forth
With the power of ten billion butterfly sneezes"
-- The Moody Blues
"Higher and Higher" from "To Our Children's Children's Children"
_______________________________________________________________________________rjc@geech.gnu.ai.mit.edu (Ray Cromwell) (04/25/91)
In article <1991Apr24.014841.46303@vaxb.acs.unt.edu> wright%etsuv2.etsu.edu@ricevm1.rice.edu writes: >One thing I must state, MOST, if not 98%, of your argument was with C64 coders. That's because the arguemnent degenerated into "American teens have little attention span, can't program, etc" If American teens program on other platforms it provides eveidence to contradict this statement. The Amiga issue is illrelevant. It's equivelent to asking, "Why are there no American teens who program the Spectrum ZX?" The Amiga may not be as popular in the US as it is in Europe. >Please make note that *MY* observations are for the Amiga community as this (I >thought) was obvious, since we are in an Amiga group and the subject is AMIGA >DEMOS: Europe VS. USA. You are correct here. The arguement is not "American teens have less ability." So why the differing between US and Euro demos? I think it is this. 1)Amiga's are less popular in the US. 2)Programmers know where the money is, IBM. 3)Amiga owners in the US tend to have lots of ram, an HD, and an accleratoror, perfect for Animation. I don't know what the real reason is, but I tend to like American demos because I like art and ray-tracing. Things like Luxo Jr from Pixar are amazing. Euro Vectors were cool the first time I saw them but now they are getting old since almost every group uses them. >Brian Wright >wright%etsuvax2@ricevm1.rice.edu or wright@etsuvax2.bitnet >-------------------------------------------------------------- >Standard Disclaimer.... not my words and all that jazz. -- / INET:rjc@gnu.ai.mit.edu * // The opinions expressed here do not \ | INET:r_cromwe@upr2.clu.net | \X/ in any way reflect the views of my self.| \ UUCP:uunet!tnc!m0023 * /
davidc@contact.uucp (Ice Weasel) (04/25/91)
In article <1991Apr23.014906.4188@mintaka.lcs.mit.edu> rjc@wookumz.gnu.ai.mit.edu (Ray Cromwell) writes: >BTW, I've been programming since the age of 13, and I used to code >demos on the C64. When I got an Amiga, is was time for college >and without a monitor/debugger/freezer cartridge like I had on the C64, >it is a little harder to bash the hardware because of GURU/Lockups and >the long time it takes to reboot the whole environment. Also, >my grades suffered during high school because of my fascination with >programming and telecomputing. If the Amiga sales pick up in the US, >perhaps some more demo coders may arise, but most of the new programmers >I see arive on the Amiga are "looking for a good C compiler" so I guess >assembly language hacking is losing it's popularity. Well, there *IS* a Monitor/Debugger/Freezer cartridge! It's called the Amiga Action Replay II and sells for around $100... It's GREAT and perfect for the applications you describe... -- Dave Carlton (davidc@ziebmef.mef.org!white.toronto.edu) or (davidc@nsq.uucp) or (davidc@contact.uucp) "There's more than one way to skin a cat", Lydia thought, as she nailed the little paws to the dissection board... Richard Deming
cactus@zardoz.club.cc.cmu.edu (Todd Masco) (04/25/91)
I would tend to believe that the demogaphics of Amiga owners are simply different between the United States and Europe. Most teenagers get their computers because their parents buy them. In the US, there is a well-established base of PC-compatible mentality -- the vast majority of the remainder going with the Mac. The Amiga seems to be bought mostly by people who are at least college age. Simply put, I think that the US amiga owners typically are older and less likely to pour hours of time into making a spiffy demo than the typical European owner. The Amiga are hardly the first commonly-owned computer in the US while in Europe, it seems to be taking the role that the Apple ][+ played in the US. -- Todd L. Masco | "Tax the churches. tm2b+@andrew.cmu.edu | Tax the businesses owned by the churches." - FZ
es1@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Ethan Solomita) (04/25/91)
In article <1991Apr24.201155.20866@mintaka.lcs.mit.edu> rjc@geech.gnu.ai.mit.edu (Ray Cromwell) writes: >In article <1991Apr24.014841.46303@vaxb.acs.unt.edu> wright%etsuv2.etsu.edu@ricevm1.rice.edu writes: >>One thing I must state, MOST, if not 98%, of your argument was with C64 coders. > That's because the arguemnent degenerated into "American teens have >little attention span, can't program, etc" If American teens program >on other platforms it provides eveidence to contradict this statement. >The Amiga issue is illrelevant. It's equivelent to asking, "Why are there >no American teens who program the Spectrum ZX?" The Amiga may not be >as popular in the US as it is in Europe. > It seems to me that the main reason is that there are almost twice as many Amigas in Germany as in the U.S. (according to Alex, Brown & Sons Analysts). Most of those in Germany are A500s by hacker/cracker teens. In America, the are more 2000/3000s than 500s I believe. The A500 never took off here among kids. Most never look at it as an option. It seems the US hackers are all doing FoxBase programming. 8-) -- Ethan "Brain? What is Brain?"
sschaem@starnet.uucp (Stephan Schaem) (04/25/91)
People have pretty crazy ideas:-) Every programers I knew in europe started very early on ZX-81. Other AppleII, than pass the C64 to go to Amigas/ST. There is no reason for a EuroKid to want or own a PC or a mac. And they dont have the money to get a MAC with Printed or PC with HDs. Europe is years beyond for that, the best example was with the C64: when people had HD in the US it was K7 in europe... Also EuroKids dont play with console like Nitendo or other that mutch. So if your kid has a NES/Genesis or a C64/Amiga wouldnt that make a diference? When I was in highscholl in France first nobody got any video machine! And after a while people got C64 and Septrums :-) It was like the ST/Amiga war... Then came Amstrade., Anyway. Now an incredible number of kid have computer because they are more popular.you can get 6 game mag every month in france only.In the US 1 and its mostly for Nintendo/Sega/Ibm. I cant tell about stores because of the landscape here, but if you went left when quiting the hotel of the last devcon at paris you would have found 4 Amiga dealers (well, only one support repair) all on the same screen side. And in the last years there only expand by opening new store all over the contrie (big word for 2 3 stores:-).Here I only here of amiga store moving or closing. Also you can buy computer in 'supermarket' (stuff like Macys) for years now.Amigas/C64/Amstrade.Also store like Virgin MegaStore offer show and autogograf 'party' for new game release, like books. Most store have computer section for software. All that to say the diference in interest in the US and in france/europe And on another subject: crackers do have 9600 HST modems with HD and ram, just look at what they find during copy parties. And also sometime cracking/demos are profitable.Prized are offered to the quickest and best.Even got words of publisher suporting pirates for putting down competition!
greg@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Greg Harp) (04/26/91)
In article <91114.132334WRW105@psuvm.psu.edu> WRW105@psuvm.psu.edu (Bill Wilkinson) writes: > > A friend and I just had a similar conversation last weekend. He seems to >think that it's due to the saturation of programmers who "grew up" on other >systems (read IBM's), and programming for the Amiga's multitasking environment >is sufficiently different that they just haven't mastered it yet. > Or maybe not... > The Infamous Double W Not. The majority of Euro programmers (at least the ones who write the demos and games) seem not to concern themselves with multitasking. Now, I can't say either way for European Amiga owners, but here in the States we get mean & nasty when someone takes our multitasking away from us. For many of us it's one of the major reasons we bought the Amiga. In other words, we consider multitasking when doing demos and the like. Most of the anim players multitask pretty nicely (except, of course, that they stick to the front of the screen because they are double-buffering). The worst anim players at least give back the OS. (Ahem. ...when they don't crash.) -- Greg Harp |"I was there to match my intellect on national TV, | against a plumber and an architect, both with a PhD." greg@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu| -- "I Lost on Jeopardy," Weird Al Yankovic
d89-dze@dront.nada.kth.se (Dick Zetterberg) (04/26/91)
I'm sorry for not using any real quotes in this text, but please don't flame me because it's written in a hurry. Whoever said that coding a demo didn't take more than a week could have been right about that, had he said it 2 years ago. However the demos made on the Amiga today (Demos = Euro-style-demos throughout this text) takes far more time to code than one week. I am now talking about the real GOOD ones. Not the simple scroll-starfield demos that everybody does as a first try. First of all the trend in later demos is to use several parts with different routines/effects. You often use up a whole disk. One example of this is the Mental Hangover demo by Scoopex. Filling 880k (Or more since they seldom use normal dos-structure) with Music, Graphics and Coding takes alot more than 1 week to do. A friend of mine released a demo some weeks ago that he had been working on for 8 months!! This was of course due to some laziness and too many other things to do, but he really spent ALOT of time coding that demo before releasing it. So, what makes people spend so much time doing things that won't give them any money? Most important: It's fun! Why not do something useful instead, like a utility or a game? (Useful? :) I think most demoprogrammers thinks it's much more funnier to program a demo than a utility. The result is more entertaining etc. What about a game then? A game takes much more time to complete, and it's very easy to become bored after a while and never finish it. Still many democoders start on games and then maybe they release a demo once in a while just as relaxation from the usual game-programming. Another important thing that makes people code demos is fame. Making a really good demo will make your name known all over the world (Well almost anyway) And even if you are considered a nerd by your classmates, you will be a MASTER in the world of demos. You can also make money on a demo, although it's not very much. There are frequent "copy-parties" and "conferences" arranged where they always have a demo competition with (cash) prices of about $1000 for the best demo. The programming style used in demos is, as people have noted, 'wild' and the OS is almost never used during the actual demo. First of all a demo NEVER uses multitasking. This wouldn't leave enough raster time for the actual demo, but I don't want to enter the OS vs NO-OS subject now. There has already been such a long discussion about it in amiga.programmer. Let's just say that demos kick out the OS for the same reasons as many games do it: Speed and memory. Since some routines and effects used in demos take up so much rastertime, long tables are used to get the extra speed and to be able to put that extra vektor objekt on the screen. This is no problem however since the programs don't have to be maintained and revised, or shown to anybody else. Other examples are where you actually generate the code instead of writing it in a loop. (you could for example put alots of MOVEM.L a0/a1/a1 .... in memory to use as a CLEAR_SCREEN routine and would perhaps make your routine some rasterlines faster than if you had used a loop instead.) This does not mean that demoprogrammers can't write nice, structured code, it's just that every rasterline counts in some routines, so then you must use those ugly programming styles. I personally think that much of the music made in demos is far better than many tunes used in games. Overall I think the game-tunes on amigagames is VERY low. There are of course exceptions like XENON II, Shadow of the Beast etc. Some of the best musicians from the demoworld has now started making music for games (Uncle Tom for example). Ok, this text got a 'little bit' longer than i origrinally intended but I hope it can explain how many demo programmers reason here in Europe and why they do what they do. / Dick Zetterberg d89-dze@nada.kth.se PS The demo my friend had been working on for 8 months got the second prize in a demo competition here in Sweden. Anyone who wants it may feel free to contact me. DS
s892011@minyos.xx.rmit.oz.au (Mr.Scary) (04/26/91)
rjc@geech.gnu.ai.mit.edu (Ray Cromwell) writes: > I don't know what the real reason is, but I tend to like American >demos because I like art and ray-tracing. Things like Luxo Jr from Pixar >are amazing. Euro Vectors were cool the first time I saw them but now >they are getting old since almost every group uses them. Not a flame, but: a) I know of many Eurodemos that use ray-traced images. And what do you mean by "art" ? b) I'm sure there's stuff similar to Luxo Jr being produced in Europe. c) Luxo Jr (if I'm not mistaken) had scenes that were rendered on supercomputers such as Crays. A comparison of Pixar's work with Amiga demos is preposterous, and unfair. d) You still find the odd Eurodemo with good, original Vectors :) >-- >/ INET:rjc@gnu.ai.mit.edu * // The opinions expressed here do not \ >| INET:r_cromwe@upr2.clu.net | \X/ in any way reflect the views of my self.| >\ UUCP:uunet!tnc!m0023 * / Mr.Scary ---------------------------- "Aw, Mom, you know I'm not like other guys ! I'm s892011@minyos.xx.rmit.oz.au nervous, and my socks are too loose !" -- Waldo
jayward@eecs.cs.pdx.edu (Jay Ward) (04/26/91)
jon@brahms.udel.edu (Jon Deutsch) writes: >About amiga demos: >There are a lot of them. They have been getting more and more complex. >They are becomming competitive! And *most* of the solid-vector/wild copper/ >blitter-mania demos are all coming from EUROPE! >Why is this? Is this a cultural thing? Demos from the States tend to be >of the 'movie' genre or 'showanim's. This type of demo is entertaining, >but (hopefully) doesn't display the talent and mathematical ingenuity that >Americans like to claim they possess. >It just seems to me that from the evidence I've been shown, >-- Europeans tend to walk on the wild side of coding, > while Americans are happy making their nifty utilities and short movies. >-- Europeans tend to display more graphic, production, and music > talent than Americans do in their code. >-- Europeans seem to get the 'head start' on computing, seeing that the > average demo-writer in Europe is still in his teens. >-- European demos are very creative. Some demos are very entertaining. >-- European groups are competing -- who can make the coolest demo!? While were making such generalizations... Ever notice that American demos always seem to work correctly on whatever configuration you are using and for the most part seem operating system friendly while our counterparts across the pond ALL seem to have 512k one drive machines :-) :-) > X-------------------+--------------+-----------------------X > | | |\ |>jon@brahms.udel.edu<| "For my 2 cents, | > | \|on |/eutsch |>>-----------------<<| I'd pay a dollar" | > X------+--------------------+--------------------+---------X ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jay Ward --> jayward@eecs.cs.pdx.edu | if (TrailBlazers > Opponents) " " - Marcel Marceau | TrailBlazerWins++; ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
psteffn@pogo.gnu.ai.mit.edu (Paul Steffen) (04/27/91)
True, there aren't very many interesting US demos. That doesn't mean good coders don't exist here. As far as the quality of European game/deom programmers, it used to be quite the opposite. In the early 80's, many of the games coming over from Europe were very bland and weren't at all visually impressive. I think Psygnosis used to go by different name [I recognize that owl somewhere] producing games for the Spectrum and C64. Infogrammes, I believe was there, too. In the US, we had games l8ike StarRaiders [which is still one of the hottest games in it's category and was written in only 8k!!!!!], and the early Lucasfilm games. If you've ever seen Ballblazer on the Atari 8-bit, it was as technically brilliant as Shadow of the Beast was on the Amiga and was probrably the first time anyone programmed a 3D checkerboard smooth scrolling ground [which the Atari 8-bit handled effortlessly doing two at the same time, I might add] that you now see on some of the DOC demos and on Space Harrier. The other games, Koronis Rift, Rescue on Fractulus [can't remember the other cave one] were the first to use real-time 3d fractal landscapes. There were programmers like John Harris, Douglas Crockford [who was one of the Lucasfilm team], Chris Crawford, Phillip Price [author of Alternate Reality, actually got to meet him once], and quite a few anonymous Atari programmers. Just like Europe has Jeff Minter [of course!], Steve Bak, Dave Whittaker, Ben Daglish, etc. Probrably the reason why there are so many good demo coders in Europe is because of the popularity of BBC Basic [at least, that is what Jez San mentioned] because it allowed mixing assembly with basic statements and somewhere along the line, these younggsters became competitive to try to outdo each other. Who knows. I do know that in the US, we are taught to use 'good' programming habits and to never break rules and to program in C. I'm sure if you showed any of the code for a demo to a computer science major [lowercase intentional], they would call it the work of satan. The truth, however, is that it takes much more skill and knowledge than most computer science majors possess to do it. Of the 100 or so demo groups on the Amiga, there are probrably only a few that I would consider brilliant. Razor1911 [Vertical Insanity and their Copper demo are impressive], Anthrox [Tabb], and a few others, are among them. Still, the Amiga demo groups have it easy compared to the ST groups that are out there. The Lost Boys [Life's a Bitch] and The Care Bears [Cuddly] megademos match just about any Amiga demo I have seen [which includes all from AB20] and vector line, block fills, overscan, 4-track Soundtracker music, copper-type effects [color bars, resolution changes..] all must be done completely in software. I've been programming in assembly since 5th grade and I know a 15 year old who wrote a helix scroller for the ST and I know a 13 year old who writes Amiga CLI utilities both in assembly and I am putting together routines for a demo and perhaps once I get it done, I'll send it to ab20. C. I'd love to get in touch with any demo coders that are out there! psteffn@gnu.ai.mit.edu STratoHACKster@Mars Hotel best mail address: psteffn@caticsuf.csufresno.edu
cai (Scott Fleming) (04/27/91)
>equally creative, but in different ways. Here the demos tend to be short >movies and anims which are as equally creative as the Eurodemos. Anti-Lemmings >anim, Walker anim and all of those are very creative, but then so are the >Eurodemos. It's the difference between having 512k and 6 megs. Once enough >Eurocoders have 500/2000/3000's with 1 or 2 megs chipram, some even more >incredible demos will come out. To you the coding may be easy, but for those >of use who don't know assembly, it's going to be HARD. Where would one find this Anti-Lemmings anim? Could anyone post a ftp site or address where one can get this. Then again, if that is out of the question, howabout e-mail? Thanks. >-------------------------------------------------------------- >Brian Wright >wright%etsuvax2@ricevm1.rice.edu or wright@etsuvax2.bitnet >-------------------------------------------------------------- >Standard Disclaimer.... not my words and all that jazz. ***************************** Scott Fleming Bix:sfleming "Within the darkness I've seen the light of dreams" Standard Disclaimer: Who, me? My own thoughts, ideas, grips, etc, etc...
bombadil@diku.dk (Kristian Nielsen) (05/05/91)
>> There is nothing "awesome" about copper tricks and vectorballs. They are >>easy once you shut the OS down. Multitasking on the Amiga is not slow, >>graphics.library has just too much overhead. Eurocoders don't hit the >>hardware because its faster, they do it because it's easier. How many >>teens can afford to become a developer, purchase the autodocs, rkms, devcon >>notes, and the AmigaDOS manual? Do you think those teens purchase >>Devpac or Seka? I doubt most European or American teens could write >>a program like AmigaVision, it's too much work. Most demo coding is done is >>a week, usually less, with the majority of time taken up programming >>tools you need and waiting for the graphics/music to get done. >NOTHING AWESOME about copper tricks and vectorballs ... >well ... I am sorry ... IT IS NOT trivial to code some of the >stuff that new demos present. I think this is TOTALLY unfair and >not giving any credit. I admit these features may be "hacks" but it >just is not nice to give no credit. Some features of the new demos are >just amazing and the fact that some of them have never been implemented >before shows some sign of creativity and the ability to program the AMIGA >not AMIGADOS and should definetly receive some respect. NOBODY is perfect. Well, you might call vectorballs etc. awesome... you might also call them tiresome to write. To do vectorballs, for example, all you need to do is rotate some points in 3d-space, sort them after z-coord and dump them to the blitter. The hard part is optimizing the code - squeezing every single clock cycle out of the processor. And it's not really THAT ingenious - it's really just cumbersome, since the code becomes very hard to expand on. I really haven't seen that many demos where it wasn't immediately apparent how the effects were done, and none where it wasn't apparent after 30 mins. work with a disassembler. In my view, what IS very impressive is the innovative- ness displayed in the demos - constantly finding new ways to use the features of the machine. The now-famous plasma-effect (which is impossible to describe unless you've seen it yourself) using the copper is a very good example of this: It's easy to bang up a copperlist that changes the color every few pixels, but it's damn good thinking of the first person who thought of doing it in this particular way. Another example is one of the first vectorball-demos by 'Red Sector International' (the one with the famous 'Juggler') - it is tecnically unimpressing (using slow bubble-sort and primitive clipping), but this is really irrelevant, since it has so many beatyfull animations - I still find it one of the most impressive amiga-demos ever. What impresses me is the persistence in designing the animations; after all, it's what comes up on your screen that counts, not the assembly listning. Just as an aside: Anybody who find hardware-banging demos impressive, think about your favorite one. Then think about Kickstart 2.0.. I don't think the people like Randel Jesup and Dave Haynie from Commodore would feel too small among the so-called 'euro-kids' (but I guess they'll have to speak for themselves). Its just that for some people (or me for one), except for the fun of it, life is too short for hardware-hacking and assembler. Just my 5 p's worth.. Kristian