rhealey@digibd.com (Rob Healey) (04/25/91)
After two days of "fun" filled spelunking of AMIX 1.1 I have my first whine list. Anybody who knows how to deal with these problems PLEASE speak up, either in private e-mail or posting to the group. First the whining, then the praise. Enter whine mode: 1) Disk partitioning. The 386 R4 install procedure lets you create many UNIX partitions, aka slices, in any slice # and size you want. The 1.1 install scripts seems to limit you to 3 stock UNIX and 1 AmigaDOS slice. I whined earlier about this before the system arrived. It looks like I'll have to create a custom boot set that will allow me to run rdb from floppys to set up all 7 of the slices the way I want them. Now, I'm the type who used iv and a custom boot set on a UNIX PC to satisfy my perverse need to create a disk setup just the way I wanted it. I take it more as a challenge than a bug... To the Amiga folks, you might want to consider that SOME of the AMIX users know EXACTLY what their doing and would like the rope to hang themselves with... A more flexible install partitioning script would be appreciated in future releases. Maybe you can even pull an AT&T "magic mode" a la 3b2 UNIX! 2) MotherBoard serial driver. Enter face filled with disgust mode: Come on guys, this is an AMIGA for crying out loud. There is zero, zilcho, zippo, nadda excuse for a serial port that drops characters at 9600 baud like it's going out of style. What's worse, the serial driver PANIC'D MY SYSTEM from a USER mode kermit, ckermit 5a(169) alpha to be exact, and I wasn't even running as root! I'll admit I'm spoiled when it comes to serial performance due to where I work but come on people. A thousand lashings with a wet noodle on this one. I hope 2.0 has a better serial driver for the motherboard port. In the mean time, is there any way I can increase the buffering or something so that I'm not wasting a telebit T2500? I'd really like to be able to do 19200. My UNIX PC can do 9600 full bore with no drop outs on a mid 80's serial driver; I'm disappointed with AMIX's performance... B^(. The MOST frustrating thing is that the system panic didn't do a panic dump on the paging area even though there was enough blocks to do so. How am I supposed to psychoanalyse a panic dump with crash when the kernel doesn't have the common decency to make one? I use crash at work quite a bit so I know what to do once I get the dump. Can I set any magic variables to tell AMIX to dump to swap? 3) X needs pty 0 free in order to startup??? HUH? I'd REALLY like to know why this is. I've worked with quite a few X servers and most recently X386. NONE of them require a pty, let alone the FIRST pty, to be free in order to work. I can't wait to hear the reason for this one... 4) The berkeley emulation from hell: Sigh. I have a bitch of a time with the 386 S5R4's pathetic emulation of berkeley routines and I see it infected the 68k code as well. I get the feeling the AT&T people who did the Berkeley stuff never went within 2000 miles of a functioning Berkeley system. B^(. I'll keep this short though. 1) If /usr/ucb is in your path before /usr/ccs/bin you are SOL. gcc won't work and cc produces executables that loath executing. The fix is easy, as the man says, if it hurts when you do that, then DON'T do that... 2) The directory functions in the berkely libs, i.e opendir and co., don't know squat about symlinks or non-S5 file systems. The people doing the ufs patchwork should make sure that the regular lib's dir functions grok S5, ufs, NFS, RFS, etc. and such and maybe fix the berkeley stuff if they have time. This botch is common to all R4's I've seen so it's not C='s fault per say. 3) The whole Berkeley emulation package on all R4's really needs to be taken out into a field and shot. Rewriting it from scratch would probably take less time than trying to fix the current mess. B^(. Again, this is not unique to AMIX, all R4's seem to have braindead Berkeley emulation. B^(. Probably AT&T's little way to get you to kick the Berzerkeley habit. B^(. 5) gcc gripes. Being a UNIX PC owner myself I was tickled pink that AMIX gcc is basically 3b1 gcc with dwarf tacked on. Will 2.0 have descriptions that aren't based on 3b1 but totally optimized for AMIX? Seems a shame to retain 3b1 quirks that we don't have to... I am glad to see active support for gcc though, I HATE the AT&T R4 compiler on both AMIX and 386 R4. Thanks to a gentleman from Dell I have a gcc for 386 R4 but it doesn't generate DWARF output so I can't debug with gcc. Which leads me to gdb... 6) Will there be a gdb in 2.0? I know Dell ships gcc and gdb with their R4 so a R4 gdb is possible. The conversion to /proc has GOT to be a pain in the butt... I HATE sdb with an intense passion, gdb would be moocho appreciated. Maybe some of the C= guys can milk the Dell boys for info, a couple a kegs ought to do it... B^). End whine mode Enter back pat mode. 15 minutes from box to fully functioning networked box on my company's network! YOWSA! I'm impressed! I've NEVER seen a UNIX system come up so fast and "just work"(tm)! GREAT JOB C=!!!! After 20 minutes I was using rrn and sendmail e-mail over the net. A very pleasant experience. Now, if only I could figure out the $%^$%^ mailer system, I thought sendmail was terse; YIKES! If anyone has comments on any of the above, please send me some email or better yet POST. Let's get some REAL AMIX conversations going, not like these boring application postings I've been seeing of late. I managed to get ckermit 5A(169) Alpha to work. ELM 2.3PL11 is bucking it, can't seem to find all the libs due to the /usr/ccs BS. I might try merging in the DWARF stuff to gcc 1.39 but I assume the C= crew has already done that and might skip straight to getting the R4 clients and libs compiled. I HATE Open Look, I want my TWM, tvtwm and R4 athena widgets dammit! So, who all's ported what and what should we port next to our favorite 68k box? Let's get something going here! By the way, where the heck are all the Virginia U people at? They MUST have interesting war stories to tell us greenhorns. B^). Happily hacking on my 3000UXD, -Rob -- Rob Healey rhealey@digibd.com Digi International (DigiBoard) Eden Prairie, MN (612) 943-9020
ag@amix.commodore.com (Keith Gabryelski) (04/27/91)
In article <1991Apr25.055026.4278@digibd.com> rhealey@digibd.com (Rob Healey) writes: > 2) MotherBoard serial driver. Enter face filled with disgust > mode: Come on guys, this is an AMIGA for crying out loud. > There is zero, zilcho, zippo, nadda excuse for a serial port > that drops characters at 9600 baud like it's going out of > style. What's worse, the serial driver PANIC'D MY SYSTEM from > a USER mode kermit, ckermit 5a(169) alpha to be exact, and I > wasn't even running as root! I'll admit I'm spoiled when it > comes to serial performance due to where I work but come on > people. A thousand lashings with a wet noodle on this one. I > hope 2.0 has a better serial driver for the motherboard port. It is difficult to get a unix machine to use a dumb serial device (ie no character buffering ala the internal serial port on the amiga) without droppping characters on input. Unix has never been a real time operating system and expecting it to service an interrupt before it damn well wants to is just wishful thinking. But, infact, this has been fixed. We now have the internal serial device running at 153600. We have solved all system curruption problems with running the serial device. This new device driver will be available in 2.0. > The MOST frustrating thing is that the system panic didn't > do a panic dump on the paging area even though there was > enough blocks to do so. How am I supposed to psychoanalyse > a panic dump with crash when the kernel doesn't have the common > decency to make one? I use crash at work quite a bit so I > know what to do once I get the dump. Can I set any magic > variables to tell AMIX to dump to swap? This is a problem. We are looking into solving this. > 3) X needs pty 0 free in order to startup??? HUH? I'd > REALLY like to know why this is. I've worked with quite a > few X servers and most recently X386. NONE of them require > a pty, let alone the FIRST pty, to be free in order to work. > I can't wait to hear the reason for this one... This is a problem with the way AT&T deals with client connections via a streams interface. You actually need to remove the file `/dev/X/server.0'. We have moved to X11R4 without AT&T enhancements in 2.0. You will find X to be much faster and much more reliable. Pax, Keith -- Keith Gabryelski Advanced Products Group ag@amix.commodore.com ...!cbmvax!amix!ag
davidm@cbmvax.commodore.com (David Miller - CATS) (04/27/91)
In article <1991Apr25.055026.4278@digibd.com> rhealey@digibd.com (Rob Healey) writes:
:
: After two days of "fun" filled spelunking of AMIX 1.1 I have my
: first whine list. Anybody who knows how to deal with these problems
: PLEASE speak up, either in private e-mail or posting to the group.
: First the whining, then the praise.
:
:Enter whine mode:
:
: 1) Disk partitioning.
: The 386 R4 install procedure lets you create many UNIX partitions,
: aka slices, in any slice # and size you want. The 1.1 install
: scripts seems to limit you to 3 stock UNIX and 1 AmigaDOS
: slice. I whined earlier about this before the system arrived.
: It looks like I'll have to create a custom boot set that will
: allow me to run rdb from floppys to set up all 7 of the slices
: the way I want them. Now, I'm the type who used iv and a
: custom boot set on a UNIX PC to satisfy my perverse need to
: create a disk setup just the way I wanted it. I take it more
: as a challenge than a bug... To the Amiga folks, you might
: want to consider that SOME of the AMIX users know EXACTLY
: what their doing and would like the rope to hang themselves
: with... A more flexible install partitioning script would
: be appreciated in future releases. Maybe you can even pull
: an AT&T "magic mode" a la 3b2 UNIX!
Well, there is a sort of magic mode. Type control-C during the
install script and you'll get an interactive shell. From there
you can do just about anything.
A word of caution:
There is not enough swap space on the floppy disk to
support the swap device. You must go far enough
through the installation to create a RDB and a swap
partition. Then, once in an interactive shell, you
must say:
swap -a /dev/rdsk/c6d0s<n> 0 <m>
where <n> is the partition to use for swapping, and
<m> is the length of the partition in 512-byte blocks.
Then say:
swap -d /dev/fakeswap 0 <m>
where <m> is the size of the fakeswap partition. (The
current size may be determined by typing:
swap -l
: 2) MotherBoard serial driver. Enter face filled with disgust mode:
: Come on guys, this is an AMIGA for crying out loud. There is
: zero, zilcho, zippo, nadda excuse for a serial port that drops
: characters at 9600 baud like it's going out of style. What's
: worse, the serial driver PANIC'D MY SYSTEM from a USER mode
: kermit, ckermit 5a(169) alpha to be exact, and I wasn't
: even running as root! I'll admit I'm spoiled when it comes to
: serial performance due to where I work but come on people. A
: thousand lashings with a wet noodle on this one. I hope 2.0
: has a better serial driver for the motherboard port.
:
: In the mean time, is there any way I can increase the buffering
: or something so that I'm not wasting a telebit T2500? I'd
: really like to be able to do 19200. My UNIX PC can do 9600
: full bore with no drop outs on a mid 80's serial driver; I'm
: disappointed with AMIX's performance... B^(.
:
: The MOST frustrating thing is that the system panic didn't
: do a panic dump on the paging area even though there was
: enough blocks to do so. How am I supposed to psychoanalyse
: a panic dump with crash when the kernel doesn't have the common
: decency to make one? I use crash at work quite a bit so I
: know what to do once I get the dump. Can I set any magic
: variables to tell AMIX to dump to swap?
This is fixed in version 2.0.
: 3) X needs pty 0 free in order to startup??? HUH? I'd
: REALLY like to know why this is. I've worked with quite a
: few X servers and most recently X386. NONE of them require
: a pty, let alone the FIRST pty, to be free in order to work.
: I can't wait to hear the reason for this one...
This will also be fixed in 2.0.
: 4) The berkeley emulation from hell:
:
: Sigh. I have a bitch of a time with the 386 S5R4's pathetic
: emulation of berkeley routines and I see it infected the 68k
: code as well. I get the feeling the AT&T people who did the
: Berkeley stuff never went within 2000 miles of a functioning
: Berkeley system. B^(. I'll keep this short though.
:
: 1) If /usr/ucb is in your path before /usr/ccs/bin you are SOL.
: gcc won't work and cc produces executables that loath executing.
: The fix is easy, as the man says, if it hurts when you do
: that, then DON'T do that...
: 2) The directory functions in the berkely libs, i.e opendir and
: co., don't know squat about symlinks or non-S5 file systems.
: The people doing the ufs patchwork should make sure that the
: regular lib's dir functions grok S5, ufs, NFS, RFS, etc. and
: such and maybe fix the berkeley stuff if they have time. This
: botch is common to all R4's I've seen so it's not C='s fault
: per say.
: 3) The whole Berkeley emulation package on all R4's really needs
: to be taken out into a field and shot. Rewriting it from scratch
: would probably take less time than trying to fix the current
: mess. B^(. Again, this is not unique to AMIX, all R4's seem
: to have braindead Berkeley emulation. B^(. Probably AT&T's
: little way to get you to kick the Berzerkeley habit. B^(.
I beleive that most, if not all of these will be fixed
in version 2.0.
: 5) gcc gripes.
:
: Being a UNIX PC owner myself I was tickled pink that AMIX gcc
: is basically 3b1 gcc with dwarf tacked on. Will 2.0 have
: descriptions that aren't based on 3b1 but totally optimized for
: AMIX? Seems a shame to retain 3b1 quirks that we don't have to...
: I am glad to see active support for gcc though, I HATE the AT&T
: R4 compiler on both AMIX and 386 R4. Thanks to a gentleman from
: Dell I have a gcc for 386 R4 but it doesn't generate DWARF output
: so I can't debug with gcc. Which leads me to gdb...
:
: 6) Will there be a gdb in 2.0? I know Dell ships gcc and gdb with
: their R4 so a R4 gdb is possible. The conversion to /proc has
: GOT to be a pain in the butt... I HATE sdb with an intense
: passion, gdb would be moocho appreciated. Maybe some of the
: C= guys can milk the Dell boys for info, a couple a kegs ought
: to do it... B^).
In version 2.0, it is intended that gcc will be the
defacto C compiler for Amiga UNIX. It is my understanding
that significant work has been done on gcc and related
tools.
:End whine mode
:Enter back pat mode.
:
: 15 minutes from box to fully functioning networked box on my company's
: network! YOWSA! I'm impressed! I've NEVER seen a UNIX system come
: up so fast and "just work"(tm)! GREAT JOB C=!!!! After 20 minutes
: I was using rrn and sendmail e-mail over the net. A very pleasant
: experience. Now, if only I could figure out the $%^$%^ mailer system,
: I thought sendmail was terse; YIKES!
Send me some email of what you're trying to do with the mail
and I'll see what I can do to help.
: If anyone has comments on any of the above, please send me some email
: or better yet POST. Let's get some REAL AMIX conversations going, not
: like these boring application postings I've been seeing of late.
:
: I managed to get ckermit 5A(169) Alpha to work. ELM 2.3PL11 is
: bucking it, can't seem to find all the libs due to the /usr/ccs BS.
: I might try merging in the DWARF stuff to gcc 1.39 but I assume the C=
: crew has already done that and might skip straight to getting the R4
: clients and libs compiled. I HATE Open Look, I want my TWM, tvtwm and
: R4 athena widgets dammit!
Version 2.0 will include X11 Release 4.0. (YEAH!)
(BTW, OL under X11R4 is not nearly as painful as OL under R3.
It is actually, <GASP>, useable! Shh, don't tell AT&T, or
they'll hurry out and change it!)
: So, who all's ported what and what should we port next to our
: favorite 68k box? Let's get something going here!
:
: By the way, where the heck are all the Virginia U people at? They
: MUST have interesting war stories to tell us greenhorns. B^).
:
: Happily hacking on my 3000UXD,
:
: -Rob
Thanks for the good word's Rob, they are appreciated, as are the
criticisms.
DavidM CATS - Commodore Applications & Tech. Support
davidm@cbmvax.commodore.com Amigados +1 215 431 9300 UNIX +1 215 431 9425ahh@moji.uucp (Andy Heffernan) (04/27/91)
In article <1991Apr25.055026.4278@digibd.com> rhealey@digibd.com (Rob Healey) writes: [...] >End whine mode Maybe it's gone away with newer releases, but you missed my biggest disappointment with beta3j, which I discovered when I was having much difficulty having another machine uucp-connect with this one: the two-simultaneous-user license. This was certainly an unpleasant surprise. Fortunately, root seems to be exempt from this restriction. -- $BJ8;z(J Andy Heffernan ahh@moji.uucp (uunet!glyph!moji!ahh)
robbar@aplcen.apl.jhu.edu (Baruch robert) (04/27/91)
All these bugs are fixed in 2.0 but when is 2.0 going to be available?
jac@gandalf.llnl.gov (James A. Crotinger) (04/28/91)
davidm@cbmvax.commodore.com (David Miller - CATS) writes: > Version 2.0 will include X11 Release 4.0. (YEAH!) > (BTW, OL under X11R4 is not nearly as painful as OL under R3. > It is actually, <GASP>, useable! Shh, don't tell AT&T, or > they'll hurry out and change it!) Will 2.0 include a port of Sun's XView? Jim -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- James A. Crotinger Lawrence Livermore Natl Lab // The above views jac@moonshine.llnl.gov P.O. Box 808; L-630 \\ // are mine and are not (415) 422-0259 Livermore CA 94550 \\/ necessarily those of LLNL
davidm@cbmvax.commodore.com (David Miller - CATS) (04/29/91)
In article <20983@cbmvax.commodore.com> I wrote: |In article <1991Apr25.055026.4278@digibd.com> rhealey@digibd.com (Rob Healey) writes: |: ... |: 4) The berkeley emulation from hell: |: |: Sigh. I have a bitch of a time with the 386 S5R4's pathetic |: emulation of berkeley routines and I see it infected the 68k |: code as well. I get the feeling the AT&T people who did the |: Berkeley stuff never went within 2000 miles of a functioning |: Berkeley system. B^(. I'll keep this short though. |: |: 1) If /usr/ucb is in your path before /usr/ccs/bin you are SOL. |: gcc won't work and cc produces executables that loath executing. |: The fix is easy, as the man says, if it hurts when you do |: that, then DON'T do that... |: 2) The directory functions in the berkely libs, i.e opendir and |: co., don't know squat about symlinks or non-S5 file systems. |: The people doing the ufs patchwork should make sure that the |: regular lib's dir functions grok S5, ufs, NFS, RFS, etc. and |: such and maybe fix the berkeley stuff if they have time. This |: botch is common to all R4's I've seen so it's not C='s fault |: per say. |: 3) The whole Berkeley emulation package on all R4's really needs |: to be taken out into a field and shot. Rewriting it from scratch |: would probably take less time than trying to fix the current |: mess. B^(. Again, this is not unique to AMIX, all R4's seem |: to have braindead Berkeley emulation. B^(. Probably AT&T's |: little way to get you to kick the Berzerkeley habit. B^(. | | I believe that most, if not all of these will be fixed | in version 2.0. My use of "will" was a bit premature, the BSD stuff will probably be fixed, but it's too early to tell if it will make it into 2.0 version of Amiga UNIX. DavidM
rhealey@digibd.com (Rob Healey) (04/30/91)
In article <jac.672824650@sundance> jac@gandalf.llnl.gov (James A. Crotinger) writes: >davidm@cbmvax.commodore.com (David Miller - CATS) writes: >> Version 2.0 will include X11 Release 4.0. (YEAH!) >> (BTW, OL under X11R4 is not nearly as painful as OL under R3. >> It is actually, <GASP>, useable! Shh, don't tell AT&T, or >> they'll hurry out and change it!) > > Will 2.0 include a port of Sun's XView? > Jim > We could always port it ourselves if C= doesn't, although I hope they do... Actually, I don't really like OL or Motif 'cause they both insist on telling me what to think and how to do things... -Rob -- Rob Healey rhealey@digibd.com Digi International (DigiBoard) Eden Prairie, MN (612) 943-9020