burley@geech.ai.mit.edu (Craig Burley) (01/09/91)
Is Amiga UNIX going to be sufficiently solid to enable me to get GNU EMACS, GNU CC, and other GNU software up and running, and to continue development of GNU Fortran (gf77) on it? If it was and I decided to do that, the gf77 would be available for the Amiga sooner than most other machines (especially those not 680x0-based). I'm currently using the 680x0-based HP workstations here at the Free Software Foundation, and they're great -- fast and solid and all that. But I'd like to save the 2.5 hours per day commute (not to mention the commuting costs), and I've gotten mail on this issue from people recommending the Amiga. Although I don't have much $$ to spend, I do have both a Mac SE/30 with 8MB/80MB and a Mac SE with 2.5MB/20MB, and could sell either one or, if absolutely necessary and Mac emulation were available on the Amiga, both. Although I do like the Macs, for various reasons primarily having to do with the Apple boycott, I'd like to get away from doing free software development on the Mac. (That is why I don't simply get A/UX and use it on my SE/30.) I'm interested only in 68030-based machines, as powerful as possible -- though my 16MHz 68030 Mac is plenty fast for work under the Mac OS, I realize that an equivalent Amiga might be a bit sluggish running UNIX, so I'd like to get a 25MHz or above, perhaps with cache or a zero-wait-state (whatever that means) memory subsystem. What are the available high-end models? Although I've been told that the "fastest" Amiga is a model that is not the high-end but enhanced with an accelerator, I don't know how well this would work with Unix and such. I also know nothing about the availability of monitors on Amiga; is the architecture open enough to allow a variety of choices? Although color and gray-scale monitors can be lots of fun, I'd lean towards a solid monochrome display over anything fancy even if I were offered a choice without having to pay. If I saw a color monitor that did B&W as well as a given monochrome, however, I might be persuaded. What's the status of this kind of stuff on the Amiga? If I end up getting an Amiga, I might start writing some good, useful personal software on it for use under UNIX & X or perhaps even the Amiga OS, and releasing it as free software. That's why I'd like to find a "personable" machine (i.e. like a Mac in terms of accessibility and affordability) not sold by Apple -- so any efforts I expend making free software for it can benefit more users than if I get a Next, Sun, or whatever, since they're workstations with little need for personal software. I might end up doing primarily development software for a while, like Fortran and C compilers, however, so I'm not sure what is next, which is why I want it to run UNIX (aside from getting me through the remainder of gf77 development, if I get it in time for that). Anyone with good, definitive information on these topics, please email me or, if it's general enough, post a response. I don't know if it's wise for me to say I'll post a summary later -- my needs are probably rather unique, since I'm essentially self- employed, doing the gf77 work as a volunteer, and hence plan to work on my Amiga full-time (except for when I'm doing contracts, when I'd like to be able to bring my Amiga along as a front-end development machine with my home-grown environment on it -- as I've been successful doing with my SE/30 in the past). I.e. I'm not looking for an evening/weekend-hack machine only. (Although I enjoy playing games on computers, I no longer spend any significant time doing so, so I'm not really interested in the availability of game software. MIDI software, however, is critical -- I do have synths and use Pro 4 on my SE/30, and have some ideas for unique MIDI-related software to write for end-users that I'd like to pursue. I believe the Amiga is an excellent MIDI machine with lots of good software. If this belief is wrong, please correct me!) -- James Craig Burley, Software Craftsperson burley@ai.mit.edu
news@tcr.UUCP (John B. Sobernheim) (01/10/91)
In article <BURLEY.91Jan9081734@geech.ai.mit.edu>, burley@geech.ai.mit.edu (Craig Burley) writes: > Is Amiga UNIX going to be sufficiently solid to enable me to get > GNU EMACS, GNU CC, and other GNU software up and running, and to > continue development of GNU Fortran (gf77) on it? GNU GCC vs. 1.37 and GNU Emacs both come with the Amiga Sys5R4 distribution. > Although color and gray-scale monitors can be lots of fun, I'd > lean towards a solid monochrome display over anything fancy even > if I were offered a choice without having to pay. If I saw a The A2024 Monitor will do 1,008x800 at 14" diagonal with a Paper White, 4 Grey Scale display for $749.95 retail. > James Craig Burley, Software Craftsperson burley@ai.mit.edu -- John Sobernheim ...boulder!tcr!news || news@tcr.UUCP The Computer Room ...CIS 76625,1210 Denver, Colorado ...But moma, that's where the fun is! (Manfred Man)
kevin@cbmvax.commodore.com (Kevin Klop) (01/10/91)
>Is Amiga UNIX going to be sufficiently solid to enable me to get >GNU EMACS, GNU CC, and other GNU software up and running, and to >continue development of GNU Fortran (gf77) on it? If it was and I >decided to do that, the gf77 would be available for the Amiga >sooner than most other machines (especially those not 680x0-based). GNU Emacs, and GNU CC has already been ported to the Amiga Unix system, as has ELM. Probably others too, but those are the three that I know for sure since I'm using them... >I'm interested only in 68030-based machines, as powerful as >possible -- though my 16MHz 68030 Mac is plenty fast for work under >the Mac OS, I realize that an equivalent Amiga might be a bit >sluggish running UNIX, so I'd like to get a 25MHz or above, >perhaps with cache or a zero-wait-state (whatever that means) >memory subsystem. What are the available high-end models? Although >I've been told that the "fastest" Amiga is a model that is not the >high-end but enhanced with an accelerator, I don't know how well >this would work with Unix and such. At the moment, I'm running Unix on an Amiga 2500/030, which is the accelerated model that you're talking about, so the answer is, it works fine. >I also know nothing about the availability of monitors on Amiga; >is the architecture open enough to allow a variety of choices? >Although color and gray-scale monitors can be lots of fun, I'd >lean towards a solid monochrome display over anything fancy even >if I were offered a choice without having to pay. If I saw a >color monitor that did B&W as well as a given monochrome, however, >I might be persuaded. What's the status of this kind of stuff >on the Amiga? At the moment, you have your choice of many models, including virtually all Multi-Synch monitors, several high end color monitors (I'm partial to the Zenith Flat Tension Monitors), and a 19" monochrome monitor from Moniterm that is the equivalent of the monochrome SUN monitors. Note that for some of these monitors you will need to buy a display card. The Zenith requires a Flicker Fixer or Commodore display enhancer, and the moniterm has its own display card. > >If I end up getting an Amiga, I might start writing some good, >useful personal software on it for use under UNIX & X or perhaps >even the Amiga OS, and releasing it as free software. That's >why I'd like to find a "personable" machine (i.e. like a Mac in >terms of accessibility and affordability) not sold by Apple -- >so any efforts I expend making free software for it can >benefit more users than if I get a Next, Sun, or whatever, since >they're workstations with little need for personal software. >I might end up doing primarily development software for a while, >like Fortran and C compilers, however, so I'm not sure what is next, >which is why I want it to run UNIX (aside from getting me through >the remainder of gf77 development, if I get it in time for that). > >Anyone with good, definitive information on these topics, please >email me or, if it's general enough, post a response. I don't >know if it's wise for me to say I'll post a summary later -- my >needs are probably rather unique, since I'm essentially self- >employed, doing the gf77 work as a volunteer, and hence plan >to work on my Amiga full-time (except for when I'm doing >contracts, when I'd like to be able to bring my Amiga along as >a front-end development machine with my home-grown environment on >it -- as I've been successful doing with my SE/30 in the past). >I.e. I'm not looking for an evening/weekend-hack machine only. > >(Although I enjoy playing games on computers, I no longer spend Obviously, working for Commodore, I use an Amiga every day for most of my work. However, before I came to work for Commodore, the Amiga was my preferred working environment, even for writing code for other machines. Note, however, that the Amiga OS (not the Unix OS, mind you) can take a while to come up to speed to program - it's not as easy to learn Amiga OS programming as it is to learn the basics of, say, MS-DOS programming. >the availability of game software. MIDI software, however, is >critical -- I do have synths and use Pro 4 on my SE/30, and have >some ideas for unique MIDI-related software to write for >end-users that I'd like to pursue. I believe the Amiga is an >excellent MIDI machine with lots of good software. If this >belief is wrong, please correct me!) >-- > The Amiga makes an excellent MIDI workstation. I've already scored a movie using it, and it's my main composing station for a multiple Synthesizer set up. Essentially, I support your conclusion. -- Kevin -- Kevin Klop {uunet|rutgers|amiga}!cbmvax!kevin Commodore-Amiga, Inc. ``Be excellent to each other.'' - Bill and Ted's most excellent adventure Disclaimer: _I_ don't know what I said, much less my employer. >James Craig Burley, Software Craftsperson burley@ai.mit.edu
rar@auc.UUCP (Rodney Ricks) (01/10/91)
In article <BURLEY.91Jan9081734@geech.ai.mit.edu> burley@geech.ai.mit.edu (Craig Burley) writes: >Is Amiga UNIX going to be sufficiently solid to enable me to get >GNU EMACS, GNU CC, and other GNU software up and running, and to From what I've read about Amiga UNIX, it's a complete implementation of UNIX System V, Release 4. I've also read that GNU CC comes with it. How solid will it be? I sure HOPE it will be a solid, stable system. It doesn't look like they're doing a rush job on it, they've been working on a UNIX based Amiga for a LONG time, first with SVR3.2 (I believe they sold some of these systems in Europe, but not in the U.S.), then with SVR4. Some of the beta testers out there could probably answer that question much better than I can. >Although I don't have much $$ to spend, I do have both a Mac SE/30 >with 8MB/80MB and a Mac SE with 2.5MB/20MB, and could sell either >one or, if absolutely necessary and Mac emulation were available >on the Amiga, both. Mac emulation is available on the Amiga. You'll probably get many messages about AMax (and AMax II), which, from what I've heard, is an excellent Mac emulator. One problem is that Apple is getting very cautious about their ROMS, which you need to use the emulator. >I'm interested only in 68030-based machines, as powerful as >possible > What are the available high-end models? Although >I've been told that the "fastest" Amiga is a model that is not the >high-end but enhanced with an accelerator, I don't know how well >this would work with Unix and such. The Amiga 3000 is available in 16 and 25 Mhz models. The memory can be expanded up to 18MB on the motherboard, and (if such high-capacity boards were available) up to about 1 gigabyte by the RAM expansion slots. I forget the exact specs on the Amiga 2500 (it's an expanded 2000), so I won't say anything else about it. The Amiga 2000 can be expanded by third parties to run at up to 50MHz, although the expansion slots with still be the slower, 16-bit slots, as opposed to the faster, 32-bit slots on the A3000. Some companies are also working on 68040 boards. I don't know about the availability of UNIX on the 2500 and on 2000's with third-party accelerator boards. >James Craig Burley, Software Craftsperson burley@ai.mit.edu Rodney Ricks -- /// /// Rodney Ricks, Morehouse College \\\/// \\//
skrenta@amix.commodore.com (Rich Skrenta) (01/10/91)
burley@geech.ai.mit.edu (Craig Burley) writes: > Is Amiga UNIX going to be sufficiently solid to enable me to get > GNU EMACS, GNU CC, and other GNU software up and running, Two C compilers are included with our release: the standard cc as well as gcc. Emacs as well as other public domain software including news, elm, rn, less, etc. are also included. We felt that these utilities are useful and "standard" enough to warrant including on our release. Source code for the public domain utilities is included in a separate archive on the release tape. > ...I'd lean towards a solid monochrome display over anything fancy even > if I were offered a choice without having to pay. I agree. My preferred monitor is a Moniterm 19 inch B&W. I usually make most of my multiscreens 50 lines/screen. It's also a good monitor for running X. Rich -- skrenta@amix.commodore.com
es1@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Ethan Solomita) (01/10/91)
In article <MWM.91Jan9104359@raven.relay.pa.dec.com> mwm@raven.relay.pa.dec.com (Mike (My Watch Has Windows) Meyer) writes: >The only machine shipping with Unix is the A3000/25-100, with Unix >software. This is a 25MHz 68030 with 4 Meg of SCRAM memory giving a >zero-wait-state memory subsystem. You probably want to add another 4 >Meg of SCRAM (about $400, last time I looked, but prices should have >fallen since then). It's also got coprocessors for lots of things, and >should be nice and quick after the 16Mhz Mac. Price for that system is >about $5000 for developers. > Not at all! That system is $4,000. The other system is really the A3000/25-200. It has a 200MB HD and 9MB RAM (1MB chip). That is the one that costs $5,000. -- Ethan "Don't forget the importance of the family. It begins with the family. We're not going to redefine the family. Everybody knows the definition of the family. ... A child. ... A mother. ... A father. There are other arrangements of the family, but that is a family and family values." -- Dan Quayle, of course. Our beloved Vice President. It's just too easy!
dewolfe@ug.cs.dal.ca (Colin DeWolfe) (01/10/91)
In article <17298@cbmvax.commodore.com> kevin@cbmvax.commodore.com (Kevin Klop) writes: [gnu stuff nuked] >>memory subsystem. What are the available high-end models? Although >>I've been told that the "fastest" Amiga is a model that is not the >>high-end but enhanced with an accelerator, I don't know how well >>this would work with Unix and such. > >At the moment, I'm running Unix on an Amiga 2500/030, which is the accelerated >model that you're talking about, so the answer is, it works fine. > I think what he may have meant was the GVP 50MHZ 3001. I'm curious about this because a friend of mine might upgrade his 2000 with one of these if it runs UNIX, otherwise, he'll sell and buy a 3000. So does Amiga UNIX suport the A3001 board or what? >>I also know nothing about the availability of monitors on Amiga; >>is the architecture open enough to allow a variety of choices? >>Although color and gray-scale monitors can be lots of fun, I'd >>lean towards a solid monochrome display over anything fancy even >>if I were offered a choice without having to pay. If I saw a >>color monitor that did B&W as well as a given monochrome, however, >>I might be persuaded. What's the status of this kind of stuff >>on the Amiga? > >At the moment, you have your choice of many models, including virtually all >Multi-Synch monitors, several high end color monitors (I'm partial to the >Zenith Flat Tension Monitors), and a 19" monochrome monitor from Moniterm >that is the equivalent of the monochrome SUN monitors. > >Note that for some of these monitors you will need to buy a display card. >The Zenith requires a Flicker Fixer or Commodore display enhancer, and the >moniterm has its own display card. > Let's not forget the 14" 2024 greyscale monitor (1008x800 (i think) and the fact that the A3000 comes with a Display Enhancer... > > -- Kevin -- > > >Kevin Klop {uunet|rutgers|amiga}!cbmvax!kevin >Commodore-Amiga, Inc. > > ``Be excellent to each other.'' > - Bill and Ted's most excellent adventure > >Disclaimer: _I_ don't know what I said, much less my employer. > >>James Craig Burley, Software Craftsperson burley@ai.mit.edu -- Colin DeWolfe dewolfe@ug.cs.dal.ca
nicks@cai.uucp (Nick Smith) (01/11/91)
In article <17298@cbmvax.commodore.com> kevin@cbmvax.commodore.com (Kevin Klop) writes: >>Is Amiga UNIX going to be sufficiently solid to enable me to get >>GNU EMACS, GNU CC, and other GNU software up and running, and to >>continue development of GNU Fortran (gf77) on it? If it was and I >>decided to do that, the gf77 would be available for the Amiga >>sooner than most other machines (especially those not 680x0-based). > >GNU Emacs, and GNU CC has already been ported to the Amiga Unix system, >as has ELM. Probably others too, but those are the three that I know >for sure since I'm using them... > > >>I'm interested only in 68030-based machines, as powerful as >>possible -- though my 16MHz 68030 Mac is plenty fast for work under >>the Mac OS, I realize that an equivalent Amiga might be a bit >>sluggish running UNIX, so I'd like to get a 25MHz or above, >>perhaps with cache or a zero-wait-state (whatever that means) >>memory subsystem. What are the available high-end models? Although >>I've been told that the "fastest" Amiga is a model that is not the >>high-end but enhanced with an accelerator, I don't know how well >>this would work with Unix and such. > >At the moment, I'm running Unix on an Amiga 2500/030, which is the accelerated >model that you're talking about, so the answer is, it works fine. > Does the Amiga Unix run on an Amiga 2500/020? If so, how can I purchase it? I'm very interested in getting Unix for my 2500. >>I also know nothing about the availability of monitors on Amiga; >>is the architecture open enough to allow a variety of choices? >>Although color and gray-scale monitors can be lots of fun, I'd >>lean towards a solid monochrome display over anything fancy even >>if I were offered a choice without having to pay. If I saw a >>color monitor that did B&W as well as a given monochrome, however, >>I might be persuaded. What's the status of this kind of stuff >>on the Amiga? > >At the moment, you have your choice of many models, including virtually all >Multi-Synch monitors, several high end color monitors (I'm partial to the >Zenith Flat Tension Monitors), and a 19" monochrome monitor from Moniterm >that is the equivalent of the monochrome SUN monitors. > >Note that for some of these monitors you will need to buy a display card. >The Zenith requires a Flicker Fixer or Commodore display enhancer, and the >moniterm has its own display card. > >> >>If I end up getting an Amiga, I might start writing some good, >>useful personal software on it for use under UNIX & X or perhaps >>even the Amiga OS, and releasing it as free software. That's >>why I'd like to find a "personable" machine (i.e. like a Mac in >>terms of accessibility and affordability) not sold by Apple -- >>so any efforts I expend making free software for it can >>benefit more users than if I get a Next, Sun, or whatever, since >>they're workstations with little need for personal software. >>I might end up doing primarily development software for a while, >>like Fortran and C compilers, however, so I'm not sure what is next, >>which is why I want it to run UNIX (aside from getting me through >>the remainder of gf77 development, if I get it in time for that). >> >>Anyone with good, definitive information on these topics, please >>email me or, if it's general enough, post a response. I don't >>know if it's wise for me to say I'll post a summary later -- my >>needs are probably rather unique, since I'm essentially self- >>employed, doing the gf77 work as a volunteer, and hence plan >>to work on my Amiga full-time (except for when I'm doing >>contracts, when I'd like to be able to bring my Amiga along as >>a front-end development machine with my home-grown environment on >>it -- as I've been successful doing with my SE/30 in the past). >>I.e. I'm not looking for an evening/weekend-hack machine only. >> >>(Although I enjoy playing games on computers, I no longer spend > >Obviously, working for Commodore, I use an Amiga every day for >most of my work. However, before I came to work for Commodore, >the Amiga was my preferred working environment, even for writing >code for other machines. Note, however, that the Amiga OS (not >the Unix OS, mind you) can take a while to come up to speed to >program - it's not as easy to learn Amiga OS programming as it is >to learn the basics of, say, MS-DOS programming. > >>the availability of game software. MIDI software, however, is >>critical -- I do have synths and use Pro 4 on my SE/30, and have >>some ideas for unique MIDI-related software to write for >>end-users that I'd like to pursue. I believe the Amiga is an >>excellent MIDI machine with lots of good software. If this >>belief is wrong, please correct me!) >>-- >> > >The Amiga makes an excellent MIDI workstation. I've already >scored a movie using it, and it's my main composing station for >a multiple Synthesizer set up. Essentially, I support your conclusion. > > -- Kevin -- > > >Kevin Klop {uunet|rutgers|amiga}!cbmvax!kevin >Commodore-Amiga, Inc. > > ``Be excellent to each other.'' > - Bill and Ted's most excellent adventure > >Disclaimer: _I_ don't know what I said, much less my employer. > >>James Craig Burley, Software Craftsperson burley@ai.mit.edu
kevin@cbmvax.commodore.com (Kevin Klop) (01/12/91)
In article <1991Jan10.235458.1317@cai.uucp> nicks@cai.UUCP (Nick Smith) writes: >Does the Amiga Unix run on an Amiga 2500/020? If so, how can I purchase >it? I'm very interested in getting Unix for my 2500. Yep. Sure does. Try turning off your machine, then, while holding down both mouse buttons, turning it back on again. (I assume that you already have a A2620 board). -- Kevin -- Kevin Klop {uunet|rutgers|amiga}!cbmvax!kevin Commodore-Amiga, Inc. ``Be excellent to each other.'' - Bill and Ted's most excellent adventure Disclaimer: _I_ don't know what I said, much less my employer.
jkh@bambam.pcs.com (Jordan K. Hubbard) (01/14/91)
>Is Amiga UNIX going to be sufficiently solid to enable me to get >GNU EMACS, GNU CC, and other GNU software up and running, and to I've seen all of the above already running under Amiga Unix. According to one German developer I talked to, gcc is in fact the compiler of choice on that machine. For various political reasons they've been trying to get the AT&T compiler to Do The Right Thing, but he said a frequently heard phrase heard around Commodore (Germany) was "What do you mean your program doesn't work? What compiler did you use? /bin/cc?? Oh, well, that's your problem. Why didn't you use gcc?" (liberally translated from the German, of course :-). So the short answer is: Yes, the GNU tools have by-and-large already been ported by Commodore. I hope that they release them with the machine, but there are obviously no guarantees. Jordan -- PCS Computer Systeme GmbH, Munich, West Germany UUCP: pyramid!pcsbst!jkh jkh@meepmeep.pcs.com EUNET: unido!pcsbst!jkh ARPA: jkh@violet.berkeley.edu or hubbard@decwrl.dec.com
giger@cbmehq.UUCP (Thomas Giger ESCO) (01/15/91)
In article <JKH.91Jan14062715@bambam.pcs.com> jkh@bambam.pcs.com (Jordan K. Hubbard) writes: >>Is Amiga UNIX going to be sufficiently solid to enable me to get >>GNU EMACS, GNU CC, and other GNU software up and running, and to > >I've seen all of the above already running under Amiga Unix. According >to one German developer I talked to, gcc is in fact the compiler of >choice on that machine. [...] >"What do you mean your program doesn't work? What compiler did you >use? /bin/cc?? Oh, well, that's your problem. Why didn't you use gcc?" While I would encourage use of the GNU C compiler for its better speed optimization, let me tell you that it really isn't that bad. Actually, I would have been the one to say that quoted phrase above. But I'm sure I didn't. In some cases I may have asked "Did you try the gcc too?" - but that's a simple cross check everyone would do. For two rather large porting projects the companies used /bin/cc without any problems - all I had to help them was to find the right libraries to link with (SVR4 introduced some new names they weren't used to). It will be interesting to see a speed comparision between cc and gcc when they re-do these ports with gcc. rgds, Thomas. -- Thomas Giger, Technical Support Manager Commodore European Support & Coordination Office (ESCO) UUCP: {uunet|pyramid|rutgers}!cbmvax!cbmehq!giger
jph@ais.org (Joseph Hillenburg) (05/05/91)
In article <777@amix.commodore.com> skrenta@amix.commodore.com (Rich Skrenta) writes: >burley@geech.ai.mit.edu (Craig Burley) writes: >> Is Amiga UNIX going to be sufficiently solid to enable me to get >> GNU EMACS, GNU CC, and other GNU software up and running, > >Two C compilers are included with our release: the standard cc as well >as gcc. Emacs as well as other public domain software including news, elm, >rn, less, etc. are also included. We felt that these utilities are useful >and "standard" enough to warrant including on our release. Source code for >the public domain utilities is included in a separate archive on the release >tape. > What about: trn, nn, xrn, flex, bison, bash, g++, jove, etc...? > >Rich >-- >skrenta@amix.commodore.com -- Joseph Hillenburg jph@irie.ais.org
skrenta@amix.commodore.com (Rich Skrenta) (05/05/91)
jph@ais.org (Joseph Hillenburg) writes: > > What about: trn, nn, xrn, flex, bison, bash, g++, jove, etc...? > None of the above are currently included. flex, bison: We have these (to build gcc) but they're not on the tape as of now. Our desire is to provide the most utility in the least disk space, and these two overlap with yacc/lex. The biggest complaint I usually hear about yacc and lex is that they have fixed table sizes, but this isn't true in SVR4. jove: Isn't this yet another small emacs? g++: This would be nice. If you've ported this to Amiga Unix let me know. bash: We already have three shells, and ksh gives you command line editing. trn, nn, xrn: More newsreaders than you can shake a stick at. Rich -- skrenta@amix.commodore.com