jeanne@ecse.rpi.edu (Philippe Jeanne) (05/02/91)
May 1st is traditionally Labor Day in most western european countries, and
I think, a significant number of other countries, but not the US. This morning
I heard on RFI (Radio France Internationale) an editorial dealing with the
origins of this date. According to this show, the origins of the celebration
of Labor day on May 1st are to be linked to a demonstration which occured in
Fourmi (where is it ?), and at the end of which the troop fired on the workers
and killed a lot of them. The story I had heard before was quite similar
except that the place of this demonstration was in the US (Chicago or Detroit)
which makes it very paradoxal: the US being one of the few countries that do
not celebrate Labor Day on May 1st.
Has anyone heard another story, which would confirm either of the hypotheses
or a new one maybe ? By the way, what about islamic countries, or south-east
asian countries ? Do they celebrate it as well ?
Philippe Jeanne
===============================================================================
O<
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jeanne@asterix.sarnoff.comsgro@psl.wisc.edu (05/02/91)
In article <ya2gnkd@rpi.edu>, jeanne@ecse.rpi.edu (Philippe Jeanne) writes: > >May 1st is traditionally Labor Day in most western european countries, and >I think, a significant number of other countries, but not the US. This morning >I heard on RFI (Radio France Internationale) an editorial dealing with the >origins of this date. According to this show, the origins of the celebration >of Labor day on May 1st are to be linked to a demonstration which occured in >Fourmi (where is it ?), and at the end of which the troop fired on the workers >and killed a lot of them. The story I had heard before was quite similar >except that the place of this demonstration was in the US (Chicago or Detroit) >which makes it very paradoxal: the US being one of the few countries that do >not celebrate Labor Day on May 1st. > >Has anyone heard another story, which would confirm either of the hypotheses >or a new one maybe ? By the way, what about islamic countries, or south-east >asian countries ? Do they celebrate it as well ? > > >Philippe Jeanne > >=============================================================================== > O< > \{^) >~~~~~~~~~~~ >jeanne@asterix.sarnoff.com The unofficial version that I knew was that the US did NOT celebrate MAY DAY on MAY 1rst because it was a "COMMUNIST" celebration!.... Whether this is true or not, well, I dunno! It is true however that in France there usually is a DEMONSTRATION in Paris sponsored by the communist party and labor unions, especially the ones "affiliated" with the party (even though, of course everybody knows that the are "independent" from, one another, just loke the french communist party is independent fron Moscow... But you know very well just how much you can TRUST politicians!!!!!) Bon, la parole est au camarade suivant, et attention! des fois que les goulags reviennent a la mode! Jean-Yves --------------------------------------------------------------- Jean-Yves Sgro I N S T I T U T E F O R M O L E C U L A R V I R O L O G Y 1525 Linden Drive, Madison Wi 53706 - USA - --------------------------------------------------------------- (608) 262 7464 Lab (direct) 262-4540 (secretary) (608) 257 7305 Home (608) 262 4570 FAX bitnet SGRO@WISCPSL Internet sgro@psl.wisc.edu ---------------------------------------------------------------
poesio@cs.rochester.edu (Massimo Poesio) (05/02/91)
I also remember that May 1st was chosen to remember a big demonstration at the end of which, as Philippe writes, there was a big massacre: I'm pretty sure however that the demonstration took place in the US, I think at the beginning of the century. Massimo -- Massimo Poesio University of Rochester Computer Science Department Rochester, NY 14627 email: poesio@cs.rochester.edu phone: (716) 275-5605
hetyei@athena.mit.edu (Gabor Hetyei) (05/02/91)
Je viens d'un pays ex-communiste, et la on nous a enseigne que le premier Mai est pour marquer le date d'un grand manif des ouvrier de Chicago dans les annees 1860. C'etait la premiere Internationale qui a decide que ce jour doit etre le jour international des ouvriers. I come from an ex-communist country, and there we were taught that the first May commemorates the date of a big Chicago workers demonstration in the 1860-s. The first Internationale decided to fix this day as the international workers day. Gabor Hetyei
giacomet@haley.ecn.purdue.edu ( ) (05/02/91)
In article <2607@amethyst.math.arizona.edu> bureau@amethyst.math.arizona.edu (Pierre Bureau) writes: > >Le Premier Mai ou "May Day", connu aussi sous le nom de >"Remembrance Day" commemore une manifestation syndicale >assez sanglante voila un peu plus d'un siecle, a Chicago. > >Je crois que la police ou des vigilantes tirerent sur la >foule et qu'il y a eu autour d'une dizaine de morts. Oui, le premier Mai commemore la repression sanglante d'une gre`ve par la police a` Chicago dans les annees 1880. Cela c'etait passe' sur la place ou se tenait la "bourse du travail": l'endroit ou` les journaliers attendainet qu'on vienne les embaucher pour le travail a` la journee ou a` la semaine. Un embryon de gre`ve avait de'marre', et la police avait charge' et tire' apre`s avoir envoye' quelques provocateurs dans le tas. Une centaine de morts et blesse's environ. La chose bizare est que, si vous allez a` Chicago, toute trace, ou meme reference a` cet evenement a disparu. Meme le nom de la place et les rues ont change'; cela s'etait passe' vers le bas de Michigan. Meme pas une plaque, et la plupart des habitants de Chicago ne connaissent pas l'evenement non plus. Un bel exemple d'escamotage historique a` mon avis. C'est vrai que, au jour ou` les "heritage" and "rememberance" days sont a` la mode aux E.U., la celebration d'un tel evenement dans l'Illinois serait potentiellement dangereux. Pourtant, cela a bien existe'. J'en ai vu les photos une fois dans un album photo sur l'histoire de Chicago. Je crois meme que Doistoievski y fait allusion une fois dans les "Possedes", par le biais de Nicolas Stavrogine. Evidement, en reponse, le 1er Mai est aujourd'hui celebre' dans le monde entier sauf aux E.U. et au Canada, qui ont leur "labor day" en Septembre. En fait, ici, dans l'Indiana, Purdue ne cele`bre me^me pas le "labor day". Ce serait contraire a` l'e'thique de travail de l'universite' (les salauds, pas de labor day, pas de week-end de paques, pas de 15 aout, pas d'armistice, pas de 8 mai, que dalle !! le 4 juillet, Noel, et le jour de l'an, c'est tout). --
chenevoy@muller.crin.fr (CHENEVOY) (05/02/91)
In article <POESIO.91May1230115@lark.cs.rochester.edu>, poesio@cs.rochester.edu (Massimo Poesio) writes: |> |> I also remember that May 1st was chosen to remember a big demonstration |> at the end of which, as Philippe writes, there was a big massacre: |> I'm pretty sure however that the demonstration took place in the US, |> I think at the beginning of the century. Le massacre (9 tue's par l'arme'e) a` eu lieu a` Fourmi dans le Nord de la France a` la fin du sie`cle dernier (1891). Il y a` eu cette anne'e une grande manifestation pour come'morer le centennaire de ce triste e've'nement. -- ***************************************************************************** * Yannick Chenevoy | Qu'est ce qui est plus con que l'armee?* * e-mail: chenevoy@loria.crin.fr | Deux armees !! * *****************************************************************************
distef@eecg.toronto.edu (Eugenia Distefano) (05/02/91)
As others have already written, the demonstration in question took place in Chicago. As far as I know, May Day has been a holiday for a long time in many countries. In Italy, for example, it was a holiday already before Fascism; then the Fascists moved Labour Day to April 21st (same day as "i natali di Roma") and after Fascism it was moved back to May 1st. What I was wondering about is if this is what happened in the U.S. too - i.e. was Labour Day once celebrated in the U.S. on May 1st? Perhaps it might have been moved after the 1917 October revolution (in Russia May 1st immediately became a national holiday after the revolution, as far as I know) to dissociate it from its socialist tradition? Or is it a more recent holiday that was placed in September directly (for the same reason as above)? When was Labour Day first celebrated in the U.S.? France? Other countries? -- Eugenia Distefano distef@eecg.toronto.edu
cl@lgc.com (Cameron Laird) (05/03/91)
In article <1991May2.141435.4390@noose.ecn.purdue.edu> giacomet@haley.ecn.purdue.edu ( ) writes: . . . > La chose bizare est que, si vous allez a` Chicago, toute trace, ou >meme reference a` cet evenement a disparu. Meme le nom de la place >et les rues ont change'; cela s'etait passe' vers le bas de Michigan. >Meme pas une plaque, et la plupart des habitants de Chicago ne connaissent >pas l'evenement non plus. Un bel exemple d'escamotage historique a` mon >avis. C'est vrai que, au jour ou` les "heritage" and "rememberance" days >sont a` la mode aux E.U., la celebration d'un tel evenement dans >l'Illinois serait potentiellement dangereux. . . . Je la doute. At least one of us misjudges the character of Chicago. It's part of the assimilationist character of the USA not to know how to hold grudges the way folks do in Ireland, Turkey, South Africa, Peru, Vietnam, ... The genetic descendants of the nineteenth-century marchers are likely to be commodity exchange runners and hospital administrators; those of the police perhaps airplane pilots and electrical contractors. If we held a May Day demonstration today, who would fire on whom? There's certainly plenty of violence in Cook County, but not over such archaic conflicts as (nineteenth-century style) "class struggle". -- Cameron Laird +1 713-579-4613 cl@lgc.com (cl%lgc.com@uunet.uu.net) +1 713-996-8546
giacomet@haley.ecn.purdue.edu ( ) (05/03/91)
In article <1991May2.180348.21097@lgc.com> cl@lgc.com (Cameron Laird) writes: >In article <1991May2.141435.4390@noose.ecn.purdue.edu> giacomet@haley.ecn.purdue.edu ( ) writes: > . > . > . >> La chose bizare est que, si vous allez a` Chicago, toute trace, ou >>meme reference a` cet evenement a disparu. Meme le nom de la place >>et les rues ont change'; cela s'etait passe' vers le bas de Michigan. >>Meme pas une plaque, et la plupart des habitants de Chicago ne connaissent >>pas l'evenement non plus. Un bel exemple d'escamotage historique a` mon >>avis. C'est vrai que, au jour ou` les "heritage" and "rememberance" days >>sont a` la mode aux E.U., la celebration d'un tel evenement dans >>l'Illinois serait potentiellement dangereux. > . > . > . >Je la doute. At least one of us misjudges the character >of Chicago. It's part of the assimilationist character >of the USA not to know how to hold grudges the way folks >do in Ireland, Turkey, South Africa, Peru, Vietnam, ... Could you be more specific ? What sort of grudges ? Why these countries ? Anyway, I do not think "grudges" are really the issue, but that, in a city where even the wall in front of which Dallinger was killed by the mob (at the Biograph theater) has its plaque commemorative, and where every body knows where the St Valentin slaughter took place, and what were the location of the high-feats of Al-Capone, I would say that, the place of the killing of striking workers by the armed police forces, from which the May Day celebration was issued, has its place. There are numerous commemorative plaques all over the place in this city, almost for the firt anything: first whiteman wintering, first anglo-whites massacred by indians, first building, first skyscraper etc... If find it disturbing, if not malsain, that May 1st should not also have its own. >The genetic descendants of the nineteenth-century marchers >are likely to be commodity exchange runners and hospital >administrators; those of the police perhaps airplane Certainly not all of them !! Who runs the factories and the mines out there ? Anyway, this is irrelevant. Are the people celebrating it worldwide "genetic descendants" of the victims ? Do you need be one to celebrate ? >pilots and electrical contractors. If we held a May Day >demonstration today, who would fire on whom? There's Why do you want a fireshot again ? Why should it be directed against somebody. Mayday demonstrations are not violent anywhere, it is a symbol, which is carefully escamoted in Chicago. >certainly plenty of violence in Cook County, but not over >such archaic conflicts as (nineteenth-century style) >"class struggle". I don't think it was a "class strugle", since Chicago never really had an upper-class. It is a young, modern, and popular city. I don't think the issue is in these terms. --
marcone@math.psu.edu (Alberto G. Marcone) (05/03/91)
In article <ya2gnkd@rpi.edu> jeanne@ecse.rpi.edu (Philippe Jeanne) writes: > >May 1st is traditionally Labor Day in most western european countries, and >I think, a significant number of other countries, but not the US. This morning >I heard on RFI (Radio France Internationale) an editorial dealing with the >origins of this date. According to this show, the origins of the celebration >of Labor day on May 1st are to be linked to a demonstration which occured in >Fourmi (where is it ?), and at the end of which the troop fired on the workers >and killed a lot of them. The story I had heard before was quite similar >except that the place of this demonstration was in the US (Chicago or Detroit) >which makes it very paradoxal: the US being one of the few countries that do >not celebrate Labor Day on May 1st. > Isn't the same thing for March 8 (women's day)? Also this is supposed to remember something happened in the US (I believe the death of a lot of women in a factory) but it is not celebrated in the US. [I believe it is celebrated in Canada, though]. Alberto Marcone
aephraim@garnet.berkeley.edu (Aephraim M. Steinberg) (05/03/91)
In article <1991May2.011003.21899@pslu1.psl.wisc.edu> sgro@psl.wisc.edu writes: >In article <ya2gnkd@rpi.edu>, jeanne@ecse.rpi.edu (Philippe Jeanne) writes: >> >>May 1st is traditionally Labor Day in most western european countries, and >>I think, a significant number of other countries, but not the US. This morning >>I heard on RFI (Radio France Internationale) an editorial dealing with the >>jeanne@asterix.sarnoff.com > > > The unofficial version that I knew was that the US >did NOT celebrate MAY DAY on MAY 1rst because it was a "COMMUNIST" >celebration!.... Whether this is true or not, well, I dunno! Very true. As liberal an upbringing as I consider myself to have had, I was shocked the first time I was in France for May Day and found out it was going to be celebrated. I half pictured the Red Army marching down the Champs Elysees with mobile missile launchers in tow. Then again, even with glasnost and perestroika, I was appalled on July 4, 1989 to see Soviet flags lining the Champs in honor of Gorbatchov's visit, in what seemed to me an almost deliberate affront to the USA. I may have grown up in the era of "detente," but I'm still convinced the reason they said it in French is so they wouldn't have to tell us they really meant it as in "trigger." Cold war mentalities die hard, and mainstream America is not about to celebrate anything that sounds related to communism or even socialism, regardless of its origins. -- Aephraim M. Steinberg | "Se fixer des buts dans la vie, UCB Physics | c'est s'entortiller dans des aephraim@garnet.berkeley.edu | chaines" OR " @ocf " " | -- Philippe Djian
montra@ghost.unimi.it (Paolo Montrasio) (05/03/91)
jeanne@ecse.rpi.edu (Philippe Jeanne) writes: >May 1st is traditionally Labor Day in most western european countries, and >I think, a significant number of other countries, but not the US. This morning >I heard on RFI (Radio France Internationale) an editorial dealing with the >origins of this date. According to this show, the origins of the celebration >of Labor day on May 1st are to be linked to a demonstration which occured in >Fourmi (where is it ?), and at the end of which the troop fired on the workers >and killed a lot of them. The story I had heard before was quite similar >except that the place of this demonstration was in the US (Chicago or Detroit) >which makes it very paradoxal: the US being one of the few countries that do >not celebrate Labor Day on May 1st. >Has anyone heard another story, which would confirm either of the hypotheses >or a new one maybe ? By the way, what about islamic countries, or south-east >asian countries ? Do they celebrate it as well ? I can confirm the story about the demonstration in Chicago. I never heard about a similar fact in Fourmi (?). However there is a 3rd possibility: in different countries the Labor Day can be originated by different facts. _____ / \ .--------------------------|\ P M /|---------------------------------------. | |_\ /.| | Paolo Montrasio | | Don't study, don't work, |--\_/--| | montra@ghost.unimi.it | | play the Core War! \ \_/ / | montra@[131.175.10.64] | | __|---|__ | MILANO - ITALY | `------------------------/ \-------------------------------------'
cl@lgc.com (Cameron Laird) (05/07/91)
In article <1991May2.191553.12139@noose.ecn.purdue.edu> giacomet@haley.ecn.purdue.edu ( ) writes: >In article <1991May2.180348.21097@lgc.com> cl@lgc.com (Cameron Laird) writes: >>In article <1991May2.141435.4390@noose.ecn.purdue.edu> giacomet@haley.ecn.purdue.edu ( ) writes: >> . >> . >> . >>> La chose bizare est que, si vous allez a` Chicago, toute trace, ou >>>meme reference a` cet evenement a disparu. Meme le nom de la place >>>et les rues ont change'; cela s'etait passe' vers le bas de Michigan. >>>Meme pas une plaque, et la plupart des habitants de Chicago ne connaissent >>>pas l'evenement non plus. Un bel exemple d'escamotage historique a` mon >>>avis. C'est vrai que, au jour ou` les "heritage" and "rememberance" days >>>sont a` la mode aux E.U., la celebration d'un tel evenement dans >>>l'Illinois serait potentiellement dangereux. >> . >> . >> . >>Je la doute. At least one of us misjudges the character >>of Chicago. It's part of the assimilationist character >>of the USA not to know how to hold grudges the way folks >>do in Ireland, Turkey, South Africa, Peru, Vietnam, ... > >Could you be more specific ? What sort of grudges ? Why these countries ? Oh, I was ill-humoredly provocative, but I'll plunge on, and be more specific. Anecdote template: USAican visits some old country, engages native in conversation. Native says, "Oh, yes, in fact, it was just over that hill there that the {invaders,protesters,northerners,southerners,...} killed my uncle." USAican says, "Really? That's awful." Native says, "yes, and it was spring-time." "What year was that?" "[some year before 1800]" And the US native thinks he's encountered a strange fellow. Americans are adolescents (to generalize, in the rather grossiere manner of s.c.f.). We're exuberant, ambitious, ..., and have real problems paying attention for longer than a few hundred seconds (bon, la Guerre entre les Etats fait une exception que nous pouvons discuter ailleurs). Je ne puis pas imaginer le danger "potentiel" que vous attendez en pensant de <<la celebration d'un tel evenement ...>>. Le May Day--la lutte des classes comprise--n'import point aux Chicagoans. . . . > There are numerous commemorative plaques all over the place in this city, >almost for the firt anything: first whiteman wintering, first anglo-whites >massacred by indians, first building, first skyscraper etc... >If find it disturbing, if not malsain, that May 1st should not also >have its own. Nous sommes d'accord. . . . >Why do you want a fireshot again ? Why should it be directed against >somebody. Mayday demonstrations are not violent anywhere, it is >a symbol, which is carefully escamoted in Chicago. . . . >I don't think it was a "class strugle", since Chicago never really had >an upper-class. It is a young, modern, and popular city. I don't think >the issue is in these terms. . . . Je me suis trompe. Vous avez ecrit d'une <<... celebra- tion ... potentiellement dangereux ...>> et je pensais que il y avait une question sur la probabilite de la violence. -- Cameron Laird +1 713-579-4613 cl@lgc.com (cl%lgc.com@uunet.uu.net) +1 713-996-8546