as@prg.ox.ac.uk (Andrew Stevens) (02/05/91)
rogersh%t1d@uk.ac.man.cs writes >>Have you ever tried !Edit's task window? It gives a full multi-tasking >>environment to run command-line based applications. > > Yeah - and its both *very* bugged and *very* slow. Acorn >made several mistakes when writing RiscOS - amongst others: In an ideal world I would agree with roger, but in the real world where hitting ideals costs a lot of money I really have to take issue with Roger's comments. > 1) No *proper* usage of MEMC's dynamic paging facilities > 2) No pre-emptive context switching > 3) No virtual memory > 4) No POSIX compliance > 5) A WIMP without an X interface mechanism > 6) Hacked up in ARM code - resulting in multiple > obscure bugs. How many UNIX boxes have to be hard reset > at least twice in every serious software development > session? - the Arch. does. This operating system exists. It is called RISC-IX. However, given the inevitable resource implications it costs quite a lot - software and disk space to store. Not nearly as immediate, controllable, and *fun* as RISC-OS. Quite frankly, once you're in this ballpark you may as well pay a few percent more and buy a SUN. > 7) Included all sorts of irrelevant trash in ROM (sound generators > etc.) when they should of concentrated on a minimal > kernel providing core facilities like comms, i/o > redirection, pipes, vmem, device transparency, etc. That irrelevant trash makes using the Arch entertaining as well as useful - if I wanted a purely utilitarian machine I would have bought a PC with System V or MINIX. > 8) A flawed reasoning that native mode BBC semi-compatibility > was a good idea - it wasn't. Better to write a half > decent OS then put a fast beeb emulator on top if > you want to retain the technophobic teacher market. Well, maybe, but on the other hand if Acorn had started writing a ``proper'' kernel the software would have taken a lot longer to come out, and would have been a lot more expensive. Acorn probably would have been bankrupt without the modest cash-flow generated by the Arthur Archies. Operating system's aren't free, just bundled. I think in all fairness, Acorn did a pretty reasonable job in getting things up, running, entertaining, and affordable with RISC-OS. The TASK window of !Edit was an inspired stop-gap towards pre-emptive multi-tasking, mighty nice for running command lines and stuff like Prolog. The active work on upgrades looks highly promising too. The bugginess, incidentally, seems much reduced with recent version of the C library. > 9) Writing a slow and inefficient PC Emulator as an afterthought > rather than designing in an optional h/ware 80x86 co-proc. > from the start (what is the most ubiquitous architecture > around?) The Arch was already relatively expensive compared to competitors - 32 bit bus etc - adding a a second CPU, with totally different bussing arrangements etc would be incredible costly. Especially given the very hardware dependent nature of the PC ``standard''. Given the looming availability of the ARM-3 I reckon software was the right way to go. Made the emulator real cheap too. Frankly, folk who *really* want to run PCware will be better off with a PC anyway. For the rest of us who want the odd specialist utility etc, a s'ware emulator that does a 8Mhz or so 8086 on an ARM-3 is fine. Mind you, one thing I'd love to know - can you get DOS CD-ROM stuff working under emulation if you've got a SCSI CD-ROM? > As a result ever loyal Acorn customers have the machines with >the best (and fastest) h/ware pound for pound on the market, but with >the worst s/ware (and a marketing effort which requires temporary >suspension of belief in order to appreciate the sheer extent of it's >ineffectiveness.) The main reason *I* bought the Arch was the quality of the bundled operating environment at its particular price/performance point. UNIX is too expensive, MINIX too beta-test and spartan, DOS doesn't bear contemplating, DOS extensions expensive, the ST (from 3 years experience) a horrid DOS-mess 68K-style, the Amiga serious competition, but loaded down with too much semi-obsolescent video hardware. Incidentally, hardware-wise, I have always felt the Arch is pretty spartan - an elegant example of good cost-effective engineering trade-offs, but hardly amazing. The Arch is most certainly *not* the fastest *hardware* pound for pound. Cheapo 386's and 486's are somewhat better and still steadily falling in price. Cheap SPARCstation clones knock it into a cocked hat, albeit at a much higher price-point. Problem with 386's is the software to use them as 386's currently costs a bomb. > However despite all this (I could mention the total lack of >technical assistnce on the other end of Acorn's phone line(s), the >idiocy of their attempts at corporate mega-secrecy about updates to >RiscOS, the lack of a unified approach to RiscOS/UNIX, If you ever owned an Atari you'd appreciate the virtue of companies that don't vapourware. Amazing all the things they (at one time or another) announced. > the failure >to realise the benefits of selling *every* Arch. with a hard disk, I was pretty happy that the Arch didn't demand a winchester until my income tax sorted itself out just before I finally bought. >their dogged attachment to the (not very lucrative on a per unit basis) >education market, their reliance on a totally non-helpful dealer >network for customer support, the lack of a 24 hr help line. etc. etc.) >they do make the best hardware out - I'll continue buying it... Money, money, money. If you want 'phone support buy IBM or Apple or Dell ... but they cost. You could, alternatively, buy from Watford Electronics. Yes indeed, folks, I bought Watford. Since dealers are almost always expensive box-shifters (and often annoying ignorami to boot), I bought from a cheap, silent, box-shifter. I was amazed when I tried their support service! The odd techno question I asked in the early days was *indeed* helpfully answered. Mind you, their speed in getting me a replacement keyboard (CAPS LOCK key dead!) however is disappointing to say the least - that presumably would cost them tenners not 10 pences. It is amazing how different people's percetions can be... Andrew
osmith@acorn.co.uk (Owen Smith) (02/06/91)
In article <1210@culhua.prg.ox.ac.uk> as@prg.ox.ac.uk (Andrew Stevens) writes: >Mind you, one thing I'd love to know - can you get DOS CD-ROM stuff >working under emulation if you've got a SCSI CD-ROM? I believe that this was demonstrated on the Acorn main stand at the BETT '91 show using the Next Technology CD-Rom drive. I may be wrong though, I'm not 100% sure. Owen.
dbh@doc.ic.ac.uk (Denis Howe) (02/06/91)
In article <1210@culhua.prg.ox.ac.uk> as@prg.ox.ac.uk (Andrew Stevens) writes: rogersh%t1d@uk.ac.man.cs writes > the failure >to realise the benefits of selling *every* Arch. with a hard disk, I was pretty happy that the Arch didn't demand a winchester until my income tax sorted itself out just before I finally bought. Me too. Pray explain Roger, what are the benefits of not selling the cheaper, upgradable configurations? >their reliance on a totally non-helpful dealer >network for customer support, the lack of a 24 hr help line. etc. Their dealers aren't _totally_ non-helpful and Acorn people do respond to net news! -- Denis Howe <dbh@doc.ic.ac.uk> +44 (71) 589 5111 x5064 What is DiazaBicycloHexene ?
patrick@sideways.gen.nz (Pat Cain) (02/10/91)
dbh@doc.ic.ac.uk (Denis Howe) writes: > >their reliance on a totally non-helpful dealer > >network for customer support, the lack of a 24 hr help line. etc. > Their dealers aren't _totally_ non-helpful and Acorn people do respond > to net news! Can't be worse than what it is here in New Zealand. Prices are too high compared to the UK price. People here used to order their machines direct from the UK by ringing places such as Watford Electronics and order an Acorn machine. Doing this usually means paying less than HALF the NZ retail price! Now Watford etc. say Acorn has forbidden them to sell machines like this -- is this true Acorn? In Wellington we have a total of two Acorn "dealers", one of them sells gear out of his house (calls himself "Ralph Hill Associates"), the other is a doctor who opens his computer shop ("Dr. Fung's Computer Centre") at odd hours, when he's not busy being a doctor. Dr.Fung is very difficult to understand and schools here complain about both dealers. All schools in Wellington have or are in the process of dumping their Acorn econets and buying PC networks, not due the price of the Archimedes but due to the lack of support. Are the Archimedes network machines/servers more reliable than the BBC ones? One school down the road say that they always have AT LEAST one network crash (requiring power on reset) each day. So, stop complaining! -- Pat Cain, Private Box 2060, Wellington, New Zealand. Sideways Bulletin Board - NZ's Acorn & BBC BBS - +64 4 661231.
terros@sideways.gen.nz (Dave Sainty) (02/10/91)
> the BBC ones? One school down the road say that they always > have AT LEAST one network crash (requiring power on reset) each > day. on the subject of this, anybody want to hazzard a guess at wha this is? has anyone else had problems where the filestore (in this case a 20 meg hard drive) suddenly fails? (station 254 not present) ok, on this information you probably wont be able to tell a thing! unless it's a design fault, which is what I'm really wondering.....
gcwilliams@watdragon.waterloo.edu (Graeme Williams) (02/11/91)
In article <g5P5w1w163w@sideways.gen.nz> patrick@sideways.gen.nz (Pat Cain) writes: > >Can't be worse than what it is here in New Zealand. Prices are >too high compared to the UK price. People here used to order their >machines direct from the UK by ringing places such as Watford >Electronics and order an Acorn machine. Doing this usually means >paying less than HALF the NZ retail price! Now Watford etc. say Acorn >has forbidden them to sell machines like this -- is this true Acorn? > >In Wellington we have a total of two Acorn "dealers", one of them >sells gear out of his house (calls himself "Ralph Hill Associates"), >[stuff deleted] On prices: Things are better than they used to be, 2 or 3 months back an A540 cost 3000pounds in Eng. and $10000 in NZ. Given the exchange rate of around 1pound=NZ$3 that means the NZ price is about 10% over the odds. (And no the difference isn't in freighting the thing - it costs around NZ$200 to *air* freight the machine from Eng.) Question: What price does Watford offer A540's for ?? (I want one see!) One aspect of Acorn operations that was a year or two ago, (perhaps still is) abysmal in NZ, has been the marketing of the products. As far as I could tell the importers (Barclays?? - not sure) made virtually no attempt to advertise Acorn products *AT ALL*. I never saw an ad on TV, or radio, or in the newspaper, or anywhere, except in local Acorn club bulletins. I personally know of 2 persons in NZ who bought Ataris or Amigas simply because they were unaware the Arc even existed. I'll bet there were hundreds of others in the same boat. Its annoying because a bigger user base would see lower prices, more software, more hardware, better service, more and better dealers, etc etc. (Oh!, and presumably more profit for Acorn too - hint hint) Graeme Williams - a Kiwi in Canada gcwilliams@watdragon.waterloo.edu
chughes@maths.tcd.ie (Conrad Hughes) (02/11/91)
I live in Ireland. Next door to England. I've never seen an ad. for Acorn in the Irish press anywhere. Until recently Acorn machines just couldn't be bought here because there were no importers, and as a result no dealers... There've been a few open days around Dublin recently, and the only reason there's been a significant Acorn presence at any of them is because the local user group gets a few members to bring their machines along - if they didn't, nobody here would ever have heard of the Arc. Acorn's PR are stunning me still. Conrad -- Will you sell me one of those if I shave my head Get me out of town is what Fireball said Never trust a man in a blue trench coat Never drive a car when you're dead Tom Waits
aighb@castle.ed.ac.uk (Geoffrey Ballinger) (02/11/91)
In article <1k86w1w163w@sideways.gen.nz> terros@sideways.gen.nz (Dave Sainty) writes:
-> the BBC ones? One school down the road say that they always
-> have AT LEAST one network crash (requiring power on reset) each
-> day.
-
-on the subject of this, anybody want to hazzard a guess at wha this is?
-has anyone else had problems where the filestore (in this case a 20 meg
-hard drive) suddenly fails? (station 254 not present)
-
-ok, on this information you probably wont be able to tell a thing! unless
-it's a design fault, which is what I'm really wondering.....
You might wan't to consider contacting (and maybe even joining
;-) the Econet User Group. It is run by Mr M. Ryan, Balkeerie, Eassie,
Forfar, UK. He has considerable experience with running a large
multi-server, multi-network Econet system and so should be able to
answer your questions. Unfortunatly he doesn't have an electronic mail
address or anything sophisticated like that,
Geoff.
--
Geoff Ballinger, EMAIL: Geoff@Ed.Ac.Uk
Department of Artificial Intelligence,
University of Edinburgh, 80 South Bridge,
Edinburgh, Scotland.kvj@rhi.hi.is (Kristjan Valur Jonsson) (02/14/91)
In <1991Feb11.140700.3322@maths.tcd.ie> chughes@maths.tcd.ie (Conrad Hughes) writes: >I live in Ireland. Next door to England. I've never seen an ad. for Acorn in >the Irish press anywhere. Until recently Acorn machines just couldn't be >bought here because there were no importers, and as a result no dealers... >There've been a few open days around Dublin recently, and the only reason >there's been a significant Acorn presence at any of them is because the local >user group gets a few members to bring their machines along - if they didn't, >nobody here would ever have heard of the Arc. Acorn's PR are stunning me >still. Until this discussion came up, I thought the nonexistent publicity of acorn products here in Iceland were to be entirely blamed on the local importer's lack of business skills. But is seems that the problem stems from Acorn themselves. How utterly ridiculous. Those who own Arcs here are usually old BBC hackers who understood the merit of the BBC micro and upgraded when the Arc came along. Nothing has been done recruit new users, so only a few chosen souls know about the Arc. If it is Acorn's policy to concentrate on the BBC (micro) established markets then I they must be very narrow minded. It namely concerns the user very much whether his machine is commonly owned or at least commonly known about or not. Acorn surey has a lot to catch up with on the PR side of matters. Kristjan
patrick@sideways.gen.nz (Pat Cain) (02/15/91)
kvj@rhi.hi.is (Kristjan Valur Jonsson) writes: > Until this discussion came up, I thought the nonexistent publicity of acorn > products here in Iceland were to be entirely blamed on the local importer's > lack of business skills. But is seems that the problem stems from Acorn > themselves. How utterly ridiculous. Those who own Arcs here are usually > old BBC hackers who understood the merit of the BBC micro and upgraded when > the Arc came along. Nothing has been done recruit new users, so only a few > chosen souls know about the Arc. If it is Acorn's policy to concentrate on > the BBC (micro) established markets then I they must be very narrow minded. > It namely concerns the user very much whether his machine is commonly owned > or at least commonly known about or not. Acorn surey has a lot to catch up > with on the PR side of matters. Same thing has happened here, BBC owners have been the main Archimedes purchasers along with a few others who have been impressed with the machine. When I am asked by people what would be the best computer for them to buy, I usually say a PC. Not because it is a good or bad machine but because anyone can go into a computer shop and say "I'd like a Pascal compiler for a PC" and they would have one. I am sure Acorn would like to sell more machines and be better known, but advertising and publicity isn't all that cheap. At least one national computer magazine here has had major problems with Barsons/Acorn paying for their advertisments. But that may just be due to the recent takeover of Barsons by Acorn. Anyway, I doubt that this discussion will help the situation very much, only inflame things, so I'll shut up now and hope that things may change one day. -- Pat Cain, Private Box 2060, Wellington, New Zealand. Sideways Bulletin Board - NZ's Acorn & BBC BBS - +64 4 661231.