[comp.sys.acorn] high density discs.

yorkr@p4.cs.man.ac.uk (Richard York) (06/03/91)

With the size of Arc hard discs constantly growing (100 meg is not uncommon)
it seems more sensible to start providing high density floppy drives. These are
now virtually a standard on PC's, providing 1.4Meg per disc. Also the price of
the discs themselves has dropped to less than a pound each so its not a problem
any more. Backing up 100 meg onto 800K discs is no joke.
    If anyone at acorn is listening could we have a comment. This doesn't seem
to much of an unreasonable request and surely the drives themselves are now not
that expensive, due again to the heavy use in the PC world.
    The arc over the last few years has become much more memory hungry due to
much bigger and better software. Bigger floppies now seem a good way to go. Does
anyone else out there in Acorn land think the same?
		Richard York.


-- 
:----------------------------------------------------------------------:
: Richard York                   :   E-mail : yorkr@p4.cs.man.ac.uk    :
: 1st year Computer Engineering  :   Janet  : yorkr@uk.ac.man.cs.p4    :
: Manchester University          :                                     :

banksie@rata.vuw.ac.nz (Philip Banks) (06/04/91)

In article <yorkr.675943292@p4.cs.man.ac.uk> yorkr@p4.cs.man.ac.uk (Richard York) writes:
	[ stuff about backing up hard drives deleted. ]

>    The arc over the last few years has become much more memory hungry due to
>much bigger and better software. Bigger floppies now seem a good way to go. Does
>anyone else out there in Acorn land think the same?
>		Richard York.

	  Yes! Yes! Very much so. What would also be nice is a macintosh disk
	reader drive. Alot of Tertiary institutions use Macs out this way and
	it would be nice to transfer work to and from home easily.

	  Philip Banks.

*------------------------------------------------------------------*   @@@@@@/|
|    BANKSie! (aka Philip Banks)  BANKSIE@rata.vuw.ac.nz           |   @@@@@/#|
|       An Arc owner stuck in an almost non Arc spot.              |   @@@@/##|
|Thus Quoth the Raven `Nevermore!'.And my spirits sank to the floor|   @@@/---|
*------------------------------------------------------------------*   @@/    |

-- 
*------------------------------------------------------------------*   @@@@@@/|
|    BANKSie! (aka Philip Banks)  BANKSIE@rata.vuw.ac.nz           |   @@@@@/#|
|       An Arc owner stuck in an almost non Arc spot.              |   @@@@/##|
|Thus Quoth the Raven `Nevermore!'.And my spirits sank to the floor|   @@@/---|

rcpieter@wsinfo11.info.win.tue.nl (Tiggr) (06/04/91)

yorkr@p4.cs.man.ac.uk (Richard York) writes:

>    The arc over the last few years has become much more memory hungry due to
>much bigger and better software. Bigger floppies now seem a good way to go.
>Does anyone else out there in Acorn land think the same?

It would be better, at this moment in time, to skip the 2Mb floppies
and go straight for the 4Mb ones.  (This would make backing up 150Mb
onto floppies a tiny bit bearable again.)

The PC world is holding its breath while waiting for IBM to announce
a machine using these drives (which of course can also read/write the
others).

Thought for today: Sure, the software is obviously getting bigger...

Tiggr

aroest@fwi.uva.nl (Axel Roest (N)) (06/05/91)

yorkr@p4.cs.man.ac.uk (Richard York) writes:

>With the size of Arc hard discs constantly growing (100 meg is not uncommon)
>it seems more sensible to start providing high density floppy drives. These are
>now virtually a standard on PC's, providing 1.4Meg per disc. Also the price of
>the discs themselves has dropped to less than a pound each so its not a problem
I know, and I would like to have 1.4M floppies also. HOWEVER:
1.4 Mb discs are already getting oldfashioned. Better opt for the 4Mb(unform)
discs or, better still, the 20Mb 'floptical' discs, which are compatible with
the rest of the 3.5" discs.
There is also another solution for the backup problem.
Not tape drives. Tape drives are way too expensive.
If you have a SCSI interface you can buy removable harddiscs for the
Macintosh and connect them to your Archimedes.
I bought my Syquest Drive incl 1 cartridge in America for $459.
This is about HALF the price you would pay in England (If you're an Archive 
member). The drive works like a dream on both computers. I can now backup
almost my entire Archimedes harddisc (48Mb) on 1 cartridge (42Mb)
The cartridges cost $68 each, which is roughly the same as 55 good quality
floppy discs. (You don't backup on labelless floppies do you? :) )
Backups take only 5 minutes or so. Because it's so convenient, you do it much
oftener.

For everyone with backup problems (and a little money :-) ) I think these
is the best solution.

Axel
disclaimer:
I have absolutely nothing to do with the Hard disc manufacturing industry.

-- 
Strike a pose... There's nothing to it.

is_d575@titan.kingston.ac.uk (06/06/91)

In article <1991Jun6.123047.3122@kingston.ac.uk>, cs_b151@kingston.ac.uk (Jeffries S R) writes:

IF YOUR GOING TO MAIL FROM KINGSTON THEN FOR GODS SAKE AT LEAST SEND A MESSAGE

MAC BID 2> 

gilbertd@p4.cs.man.ac.uk (Dave Gilbert) (06/07/91)

Hi All,
Following on from the question about when Acorn are going to get round to
adding a high density drive - what is to stop you just connecting a high
density drive instead of the present one.  Is it that the 1772 cant cope
(if not why not)?  Or is the interface different - I'm sure the ADFS or
an alternate filing system could be quite easily kludged together.

I do seem to remember reading the thing on ADFS_DiscOp that it had 
a place where it wantd the density - single, double and in the
Arthur PRM's it said Quad as well - so what is the problem?

Any way what is the difference on a HD disc - more tracks? More sectors?
More bytes/sector ?

Dave

-- 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
- Dave Gilbert - gilbertd@p4.cs.man.ac.uk - The MTBF of a piece of equipment  -
-                G7FHJ@GB7NWP             - is inversly proportional to its   -
------------------------------------------- importance                        -

adamd@rhi.hi.is (Adam David) (06/09/91)

rcpieter@wsinfo11.info.win.tue.nl (Tiggr) writes:
>yorkr@p4.cs.man.ac.uk (Richard York) writes:

>>    The arc over the last few years has become much more memory hungry due to
>>much bigger and better software. Bigger floppies now seem a good way to go.

>It would be better, at this moment in time, to skip the 2Mb floppies
>and go straight for the 4Mb ones.  (This would make backing up 150Mb
>onto floppies a tiny bit bearable again.)

The hardware for getting the WD1772 FDC to handle HD drives and some types
of ED drives is very simple. This has been done on Atari ST and could no doubt
be installed in any Archi. I wonder how well ADFS copes with 1600k and 3200k
floppies. Does anyone know about the software angle on this one?

--
Adam David.
(adamd@rhi.hi.is) 

banksie@rata.vuw.ac.nz (Philip Banks) (06/10/91)

In article <3236@krafla.rhi.hi.is> adamd@rhi.hi.is (Adam David) writes:
>rcpieter@wsinfo11.info.win.tue.nl (Tiggr) writes:
>The hardware for getting the WD1772 FDC to handle HD drives and some types
>of ED drives is very simple. This has been done on Atari ST and could no doubt
>be installed in any Archi. I wonder how well ADFS copes with 1600k and 3200k
>floppies. Does anyone know about the software angle on this one?
>

	  Well as ADFS copes with hard drive sizes it shouldn't have too many
	problems. Acorn appear to have left the neccessary room in the ADFS
	filer to handle quad density. Not to mention I have heard an 
	unconfirmed rumor that a high-density drive interface is going to be
	released soon. But this could be like the ARM3 units for the A3000...
	we still haven't seen them out here yet (If they exist). Can anyone
	out there confirm whether they do or do not exist?

	  Philip Banks

-- 
*------------------------------------------------------------------*   @@@@@@/|
|    BANKSie! (aka Philip Banks)  BANKSIE@rata.vuw.ac.nz           |   @@@@@/#|
|       An Arc owner stuck in an almost non Arc spot.              |   @@@@/##|
|Thus Quoth the Raven `Nevermore!'.And my spirits sank to the floor|   @@@/---|

jrg@doc.ic.ac.uk (James Robert Grinter) (06/10/91)

rcpieter@wsinfo11.info.win.tue.nl (Tiggr) writes:
>yorkr@p4.cs.man.ac.uk (Richard York) writes:
>>    The arc over the last few years has become much more memory hungry due to
>>much bigger and better software. Bigger floppies now seem a good way to go.

>It would be better, at this moment in time, to skip the 2Mb floppies
>and go straight for the 4Mb ones.  (This would make backing up 150Mb
>onto floppies a tiny bit bearable again.)

The only problem with 4MB floppies, at the moment, is the price. The most
recent advert I saw was 10 floppies for about 70 pounds sterling.

James.



--
James Grinter,                              Dept of Computing, Imperial College
JANET: jrg@uk.ac.ic.doc                      180, Queen's Gate, LONDON SW7 2BZ
DARPA: jrg@doc.ic.ac.uk
UUCP:  jrg@icdoc.UUCP, ..!ukc!icdoc!jrg        "If it works, leave it alone!"

patrick@sideways.gen.nz (Pat Cain) (06/11/91)

banksie@rata.vuw.ac.nz (Philip Banks) writes:

>         Yes! Yes!  Very much so.  What would also be nice is a Macintosh disc
>       reader drive.  A lot of tertiary institutions use Macs out this way and
> 	it would be nice to transfer work to and from home easily.

The ability to read high density PC discs would be useful to a lot more
people than the ability to read Mac discs.  Does anyone know if the high
density drives in the Macs are custom Apple ones (like their 800k drive)
or whether they are industry standard models?  As long as they are standard
drives then a high density drive for the Archimedes should be able to
handle both PC and Mac formats with the appropriate software.

BTW has anyone played the game Wing Commander on the PC?  Seems to be
really popular everywhere.  Apparently it was written by Chris Roberts
-- he wrote Strykers Run and Match Day for the BBC..  Is there any news
of an Arch version?


--
Pat Cain, PO Box 2060, Wellington, New Zealand.
(patrick@sideways.welly.gen.nz)

angelo@i41s16.ira.uka.de (Angelo Schneider Betr.Prechelt) (06/11/91)

 patrick@sideways.gen.nz (Pat Cain) writes:

>  The ability to read high density PC discs would be useful to a lot more
>  people than the ability to read Mac discs. 



Ha, Ha, Ha!
I' know about 20 Archimedes Users, none of them is a IBM User.
I use both, Macintosh and Archimedes. I *NEED* a Macintosh Disk Readeer for
the Archimedes!


he also writes:

>  Does anyone know if the high
>  density drives in the Macs are custom Apple ones (like their 800k drive)
>  or whether they are industry standard models? 


If you would know anything about the Mac you'd know that it is able to read 
and write all PC disk formats. And there is a little INIT which makes PC-Disks 
as easy to handle (under Mac OS / WIMP) as Mac-Disks.

The HD Drive used by Apple is a Sony Drive. The only differenc to other Drives 
is the ability to eject its Disks automaticly and to generate an interrupt when
a Disk is inserted.

The Disks are written in standard MFM-Format.

>  As long as they are standard drives then a high density drive for 
>  the Archimedes should be able to handle both PC and Mac formats with
>  the appropriate software.

What about the Hardware? Is the Archimedes' controller able to work with
HD-Drives? 

ciao angelo

aroest@fwi.uva.nl (Axel Roest (N)) (06/12/91)

angelo@i41s16.ira.uka.de (Angelo Schneider Betr.Prechelt) writes:


> patrick@sideways.gen.nz (Pat Cain) writes:
>>  The ability to read high density PC discs would be useful to a lot more
>>  people than the ability to read Mac discs. 

>Ha, Ha, Ha!
>I' know about 20 Archimedes Users, none of them is a IBM User.

I would also rather be able to read Mac discs than IBM discs (ofcourse I want
to read & write both if possible)

>he also writes:


>The HD Drive used by Apple is a Sony Drive. The only differenc to other Drives 
>is the ability to eject its Disks automaticly and to generate an interrupt whe
>a Disk is inserted.

>The Disks are written in standard MFM-Format.

That may be true for HD mac discs, DD discs are definitely NOT standard MFM:
De drive speed is changed according to the track being read.
I know of no 'standard' disc drive where you can change the rotation speed.

>>  As long as they are standard drives then a high density drive for 
>>  the Archimedes should be able to handle both PC and Mac formats with
>>  the appropriate software.

Let's make that Mac High Density format. There are still more Mac's around with
normal (DD) disc drives than there are with high density drives.

Axel
-- 
Strike a pose... There's nothing to it.

banksie@rata.vuw.ac.nz (Philip Banks) (06/13/91)

In article <1991Jun12.131735.15192@fwi.uva.nl> aroest@fwi.uva.nl (Axel Roest (N)) writes:
>I would also rather be able to read Mac discs than IBM discs (ofcourse I want
>to read & write both if possible)
>

	  I suspect there are alot of people who do. The IBM ones are catered
	for with programs like !PCDir and !DosFS but those of us who wish to
	read Mac Disks have no such recourse.

>That may be true for HD mac discs, DD discs are definitely NOT standard MFM:
>De drive speed is changed according to the track being read.
>I know of no 'standard' disc drive where you can change the rotation speed.
>
>Let's make that Mac High Density format. There are still more Mac's around with
>normal (DD) disc drives than there are with high density drives.
>

	  Yes well if the High Desnity drive interface ,which I have good 
	rumors on its exsistance, can read MAC HD disks it would be a big start
	. Of course what would be *really* ideal is have not just a disk reader
	but an emulator as well. Even an emulation of say an SE would be very
	useful. I know for myself life would be alot easier if I could take my
	work home and run it there. Of course the emulator would *have* to 
	have things like :-

	 -use any and all spare memory in your arc. Hopefully this would mean
	4 Meg arc owners out there could pull tricks like RAM loading a system
	into the emulator to cut down on the number of disk swaps...
	 -Sound emulation that actually works (if sound emulation is put in
	at all) unlike the sound emulation of the PC emulator which is really
	abysmal.

	But this is very much on my dream list of things for the Arc. Does 
	anyone know what became of the Amiga emulator mentioned a few months 
	back in the BAU? This would be another useful thing to have...

	  Philip Banks


-- 
*------------------------------------------------------------------*   @@@@@@/|
|    BANKSie! (aka Philip Banks)  BANKSIE@rata.vuw.ac.nz           |   @@@@@/#|
|       An Arc owner stuck in an almost non Arc spot.              |   @@@@/##|
|Thus Quoth the Raven `Nevermore!'.And my spirits sank to the floor|   @@@/---|

ajdh@stl.stc.co.uk (Andrew J D Hurley) (06/13/91)

In the referenced article angelo@i41s16.ira.uka.de (Angelo Schneider Betr.Prechelt) writes:
>I' know about 20 Archimedes Users, none of them is a IBM User.
>I use both, Macintosh and Archimedes. I *NEED* a Macintosh Disk Readeer for
>the Archimedes!

This may be true, but generally there are an awful lot more IBM clones
around than there are Macintoshs.

>If you would know anything about the Mac you'd know that it is able to read 
>and write all PC disk formats. And there is a little INIT which makes PC-Disks 
>as easy to handle (under Mac OS / WIMP) as Mac-Disks.

You have just negated your own argument, the Mac reads and writes DOS,
the Arc reads and writes DOS, therefore you do not NEED a Mac reader
for your Arc - you just want one. I don't hear you calling for an Arc
reader for your Mac, which, given the odd Mac system, sounds far more
possible.

I think it would be true to say that just about every computer system
with 3.5 (or even 5.25) floppy has a utility of some kind to read and
write DOS since this has become the Defacto standard for transfer
on floppy between machines of different types.

It is therefore more worthwhile for developers to write DOS utilities
than anything else. It is down to the enthusiasts with their unusual
systems to develop special format readers or make do with the DOS
intermediate format like everyone else.

I am speaking from the point of view of one who uses DOS to take files
from home (Arc) to work (various Unix boxes). It causes me no problems
whatsoever - I can even exchange floppies with friends who have various
toy computers like STs, even they can manage DOS. The beauty is that I
don't need to convert to DOS, using PCDir (avaliable on the Newcastle
Info server or other PD sources) I just drag straight off the DOS
directory viewer into my application and visa versa. The only real problem
is that I only get 720K instead of 800K and shorter names, but I can
live with that. The advantages outweigh the disadvantages. I would far
rather see 2MB and 4MB drives for the Arc and appropriate enhancements
to software such as PCDir to read and write tho DOS equivalents.



-- 
Andrew J D Hurley,     ( ajdh@stl.stc.co.uk )
Mail route:   uunet!ukc!stl!ajdh  |  Phone:   +44 279 429531 x. 2535
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