nessus@mit-eddie.UUCP (Doug Alan) (07/13/85)
> From: evan@petfe.UUCP (Evan Marcus) > Boy, I hate to see Phil lumped into the same class with Michael Jackson and > Prince(ss)! .... In my opinion Prince is talentless. If Phil Collins is good and Prince is talentless, then why did Phil rip off Prince's music? The only good music Collins ever did was when he was ripping off Peter Gabriel, and even then it was only a bleak pale imitation. Prince may be mediocre, but he has more originality is his Trojan than Phil has in all of his pseu-pseu-pseudo-musico (thanks Rich!). Phil Collins is a complete charlatan! > In my opinion Prince is talentless. My theory about why he never > showed up at the USA for Africa sessions is because he would have > melted like the Wicked Witch, in front of all that real talent. In front of all that talent like Michael Jackson and Lionel Richie? Right! "The poison bite and darkness take my sight" Doug Alan nessus@mit-eddie.UUCP (or ARPA)
evan@petfe.UUCP (Evan Marcus) (07/14/85)
From nessus@mit-eddie (Doug Alan) > > From: evan@petfe.UUCP (Evan Marcus) > > Boy, I hate to see Phil lumped into the same class with Michael Jackson and > > Prince(ss)! .... In my opinion Prince is talentless. > > If Phil Collins is good and Prince is talentless, then why did Phil rip > off Prince's music? The only good music Collins ever did was when he > was ripping off Peter Gabriel, and even then it was only a bleak pale > imitation. Prince may be mediocre, but he has more originality is his > Trojan than Phil has in all of his pseu-pseu-pseudo-musico (thanks > Rich!). Phil Collins is a complete charlatan! > > > In my opinion Prince is talentless. My theory about why he never > > showed up at the USA for Africa sessions is because he would have > > melted like the Wicked Witch, in front of all that real talent. > > In front of all that talent like Michael Jackson and Lionel Richie? > Right! > > Doug Alan As I also said in part of my article (I think) this album of Phil's is not his best, but his previous 2 are really marvelous. You're the 2nd person I have heard accuse Phil of ripping off Prince's music (both netters replying to my article). Besides the fact the I don't particularly the that S-S-Song, I don't really see too much similarity to Prince. And as for Prince melting in front of the other talent, maybe you didn7t hear that MJ recorded his stuff separately (he might have melted too). As for LR, he may not be that talented, but he has a very commanding personality, as evidenced at Live-Aid, where he showed up for the finale and seemed to take over. By talent, I was referring to Stevie Wonder, Harry Belafonte, Bruce (pardon me, I like him) Springsteen, Billy Joel, Smokey Robinson, Ray Charles, Bob Dylan, Bob Geldof, and Paul Simon, to name but a few (in NO particular order). Not only does Prince have no talent, but he also has no personality. --Evan Marcus -- {ucbvax|decvax}!vax135!petsd!petfe!evan ...!pedsgd!pedsga!evan Just to hit the ball and touch 'em all A moment in the sun It's gone, and you can tell that one goodbye.
rjv@ihdev.UUCP (ron vaughn) (07/16/85)
In article <4682@mit-eddie.UUCP> nessus@mit-eddie.UUCP (Doug Alan) writes: >> In my opinion Prince is talentless. My theory about why he never >> showed up at the USA for Africa sessions is because he would have >> melted like the Wicked Witch, in front of all that real talent. > >In front of all that talent like Michael Jackson and Lionel Richie? >Right! > Doug Alan ray charles, perhaps?? i see! if you are popular, then (by some strange definition) you can't be talented. i realize i'm not supposed to be so "personal" and "attack," but the hypocrisy being displayed by doug all the time borders on (ok, i'll be honest, it IS) ridiculous. doug, is there one area (muscially) where you can top ray charles? (god, i can feel the flames, and i feel stupid for asking this type of question, but i'm driving at a point here, hang on!) can you out play him? out perform him? please an audience more? be more creative? (and do it with your eyes shut?? :-) doug, have you no appreciation for what an artist does? i spent 12 years behind a saxophone (and a few behind a piano & flute). after 12 years of playing all that high school stuff & jazz band & major marching college band & just goofing around, i learned a few things. i was a good sax player, but far from great. FAR! even the "worst" of professional recording sax players (honest to god make their living off playing) could out-play me. so i can look at john klemmer and say "gheeez. what a schmoe. grover washington jr. would have to teach him to hold the horn before giving him his first lesson," but i don't. because i know what it takes to play a sax. just because i like g.w.jr over klemmer doesn't mean klemmer sucks sax. he is still a *very* talented musician. try picking up a sax and playing along with one of his albums. i used to. all of those people at USA_for_Africa ARE talented. i don't listen to half of them, but i realize they are talented. they wouldn't be there if they weren't. no, madonna is not my idol. but she can kinda' sorta' sing (in her own way) and she makes what many consider sexy videos, and if you ever get out in the real world doug and are at a hoppin' dance bar, you'll realize she doesn't make music to sit and contemplate, she makes music to *M*O*V*E* to. there is some talent there. if being a top-40 queen were as easy as you make it, how come those 103,231 other madonna look-a-likes didn't make it? you don't just stand up and say "i wanna' be a video queen." lighten up, doug. don't be some damn critical of top-40. it's not the best, but it has its purpose. ever listen to a song just because it has cute lyrics and makes you think of your girlfriend -- brings a big smile to your face? ever like a song because you can't HELP but dance to it? could YOU write or produce or sing on or play on or edit or do just about anything on a top-40 album?? i doubt it. and even if maybe you could you'd have to beat out the 543,201 others trying for the same spot. don't even consider a hot jazz album or other more "talented" areas. now call up lionel richie and apologize right now. ron vaughn ...!ihnp4!ihdev!rjv ps: DOUG!!! DO NOT (DO NOT DO NOT) take this letter and chop it up and reply to every other sentence. i will mail you every core at bell labs i can find if you do. when you do that, you don't reply to thoughts and ideas and "the big picture," hell no, you miss all of that. you reply to specific sentences, play little word games (..."i didn't say "all", i said "most"...) and crap like that. this is when your hypocrisy is at its absolute worst. for example.... *************************************************************************** doug spouting off to me about bach.vs.bush: > (do I have to say "in my >opinion" here -- though you definitely seem to have the opinion that >your opinion is fact) i happened to say: >>> SHE WILL NEVER BE AS IMPORTANT OR GOOD OR TALENTED AS BACH. NEVER. so doug instantly replies with these neat "facts": >Bullshit. She already is as good -- she's better! But you're correct >that she may never be as important in a historical sense, because she >wasn't born at the right time for that. *************************************************************************** i rest my case. i'm sick and tired of this whole schmere (and i'm sure you netters are too). i just wish people could understand what "fandom" is and how it can cloud your judgement.
rlr@pyuxd.UUCP (Rich Rosen) (07/16/85)
> As I also said in part of my article (I think) this album of Phil's is not > his best, but his previous 2 are really marvelous. You're the 2nd person > I have heard accuse Phil of ripping off Prince's music (both netters replying > to my article). Besides the fact the I don't particularly the that S-S-Song, > I don't really see too much similarity to Prince. Aside from the organ chords, the organ sound itself, the beginning of the melody line (which in Collins' song deteriorates from "1999" into nothing), the rhythmic texture and overall feel, I see no similarity at all between "1999" (a really great song) and "Pseu-Pseudomusico". (That's sarcasm, you know!) Collins blatantly ripped off Prince there. > And as for Prince melting in front of the other talent, maybe you didn7t hear > that MJ recorded his stuff separately (he might have melted too). As for LR, > he may not be that talented, but he has a very commanding personality, as > evidenced at Live-Aid, where he showed up for the finale and seemed to take > over. By talent, I was referring to Stevie Wonder, Harry Belafonte, Bruce > (pardon me, I like him) Springsteen, Billy Joel, Smokey Robinson, Ray Charles, > Bob Dylan, Bob Geldof, and Paul Simon, to name but a few (in NO particular > order). Not only does Prince have no talent, but he also has no personality. Oh, please, schlockmeister Richie and his "commanding personality"? Give me a break! What does that have to do with musical viability? Richie's "personality" involved changing the Commodores from a fairly good funky band into a mushy refrigerator music (Move those refrigerators!) band, then walked out and left them all hight and dry!! Some "personality"! Prince has plenty of talent. Obviously you've never even heard 1999 if you noticed no similarity between Susudio and it, so you're not all that exposed to Prince's work, some of which (on 1999, for instance) is excellent. The man is trapped inside his own ego (which gives him lots of room tow work with), but he is masterful in the studio and has produced some great work. You should check out one really great album, 1999. (Purple Rain ain't so bad, either.) He's certainly better than the some of the schlockmeisters you lavished praise on above, some of whom haven't produced any real creative output in ten years. Hitler had a "commanding personality", too... -- "iY AHORA, INFORMACION INTERESANTE ACERCA DE... LA LLAMA!" Rich Rosen ihnp4!pyuxd!rlr
6243jae@whuts.UUCP (ELKINS) (07/16/85)
> ray charles, perhaps?? i see! if you are popular, then (by some strange > definition) you can't be talented. i realize i'm not supposed to > be so "personal" and "attack," but the hypocrisy being displayed by > doug all the time borders on (ok, i'll be honest, it IS) ridiculous. > > doug, is there one area (muscially) where you can top ray charles? (god, i > can feel the flames, and i feel stupid for asking this type of > question, but i'm driving at a point here, hang on!) can you > out play him? out perform him? please an audience more? be more creative? > (and do it with your eyes shut?? :-) > > doug, have you no appreciation for what an artist does? i spent 12 years > behind a saxophone (and a few behind a piano & flute). after 12 years > of playing all that high school stuff & jazz band & major marching college > band & just goofing around, i learned a few things. i was a good sax > player, but far from great. FAR! even the "worst" of professional recording > sax players (honest to god make their living off playing) could out-play > me. so i can look at john klemmer and say "gheeez. what a schmoe. grover > washington jr. would have to teach him to hold the horn before giving him > his first lesson," but i don't. because i know what it takes to play > a sax. just because i like g.w.jr over klemmer doesn't mean klemmer > sucks sax. he is still a *very* talented musician. try picking up > a sax and playing along with one of his albums. i used to. > > all of those people at USA_for_Africa ARE talented. i don't listen > to half of them, but i realize they are talented. they wouldn't be > there if they weren't. no, madonna is not my idol. but she can kinda' sorta' > sing (in her own way) and she makes what many consider sexy videos, > and if you ever get out in the real world doug and are at a hoppin' > dance bar, you'll realize she doesn't make music to sit and contemplate, > she makes music to *M*O*V*E* to. there is some talent there. if being > a top-40 queen were as easy as you make it, how come those 103,231 other > madonna look-a-likes didn't make it? you don't just stand up and > say "i wanna' be a video queen." > > lighten up, doug. don't be some damn critical of top-40. it's not > the best, but it has its purpose. ever listen to a song just because > it has cute lyrics and makes you think of your girlfriend -- brings a big > smile to your face? ever like a song because you can't HELP but dance to it? > could YOU write or produce or sing on or play on or edit or do just about > anything on a top-40 album?? i doubt it. and even if maybe you could > you'd have to beat out the 543,201 others trying for the same spot. don't > even consider a hot jazz album or other more "talented" areas. now > call up lionel richie and apologize right now. > The issue of talent among "Top 40" musicians is an old sore spot among homespun musicologists. Ron, I think you missed out on some of the important issues in your musical upbringing regarding success. Success in the recording industry is reliant upon a number of ingredients. The part of this success that involves musical skill is probably 20% or so, and the rest of the ingredients include luck, originality (not necessarily involving musical innovativeness) of material, stage prescence and studio-savvy. I'm not discounting the years of sax playing you did in your evaluation of talent in musicians, but if you had seen some of the unsuccessful musicians I have you would wonder why the talent has so little to do with the ability of someone to sell a "Top 40" record. I have seen people who can play absolutely phenomenal things on their instrument or with voice, who end up teaching kindergarteners to play scales, and conversely I've seen where a relatively useless musician ("a dime a dozen.....") like Herb Alpert (voted the least likely to succeed by the horn section he used to play in) makes it REALLY BIG because he can cater to the listening taste of a whole lot of people. If success in muzak is what has you classing all successful musicians together as a talented bunch, you ought to go out there and play that sax. Play the simplest thing you know and play it well, and someone will say, "God, that guy can play!" I was brought up in the recording industry. My parents had a studio where I used to shoot rubber bands at Bobby Darin and Frankie Avalon from the sound boom control. I went to music school when I got out of high school, and some of the people I took classes with are in groups like Chicago, New York Philharmonic, Chicago Symphony Orchestra, Skyline (only mentioned because I like them), and lots of others, but there are a lot of people who I watched become wealthy as "musicians" even though they could barely play an instrument (I'm sorry, but Bob Dylan is among them, because he is a brilliant lyricist with no regard for the musical quality of his own playing and singing). After a taste of touring with some groups and doing some studio work I detested the recording industry, and for that matter the music industry with it. The field I had chosen was too corrupt and devoid of taste to remain in, so here I am, a has-been (and damned proud of it, too). You see, the problem is that talent is not everything. All top 40'ers don't have it. Among the top 40 people of today, few of them are highly skilled musicians, and few of them can play anything but the stuff they have created themselves (did you see the miserable performance that Dylan's accompanists did in Live Aid? Those guys are big, too!). Take it from a fairly reliable source. Jay Elkins hou2g!whuts!6243jae *** REPLACE THIS LINE WITH YOUR MESSAGE ***
waltt@tekecs.UUCP (Walt Tucker) (07/17/85)
> I see no similarity at all between > "1999" (a really great song) and "Pseu-Pseudomusico". (That's sarcasm, > you know!) Collins blatantly ripped off Prince there. I could be wrong, but I thought Phil Collins wrote "1999." I'm not a fan of either. -- Walt Tucker Tektronix, Inc.
cuccia@ucbvax.ARPA (Nick "Coosh" Cuccia) (07/17/85)
>From nessus@mit-eddie (Doug Alan) >As I also said in part of my article (I think) this album of Phil's is not >his best, but his previous 2 are really marvelous. You're the 2nd person >I have heard accuse Phil of ripping off Prince's music (both netters replying >to my article). Besides the fact the I don't particularly the that S-S-Song, >I don't really see too much similarity to Prince. Hmmm... Perhaps you didn't see the Phil Collins interviews on Friday Night Videos a few weeks ago. Phil admitted to 'borrowing' the bass line from Prince's _1999_. I don't particularly like _Sussudio_ either, but I do like Phil Collins' frist couple of albums (particularly _Face Value_). >--Evan Marcus ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ --Nick "Coosh" Cuccia --{...}!ucbvax!cuccia (USENET) --cuccia%ucbmiro@Berkeley (Arpanet) ----------------------------------------------------------------------- The University wouldn't dare say some of the things that I say... ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
waltt@tekecs.UUCP (Walt Tucker) (07/18/85)
Speaking of rip-offs, ever notice how closely John Cafferty and the BBB
resemble clones of Bruce Springsteen and the E Street band? The BBB
contains about the same number of band members as the E street band, including
a black saxaphone player. JC and the BBB dress in about the same "blue
collar" attire, and JC strongly resembles a younger BS (same hair, etc).
Even the songs, both in melody and lyrics, are rip-offs of the BS style.
The first few times I heard "On the Darkside", I could have sworn it was
Bruce. The tempo was right, and the saxophone came in pure Clarence
Clemmons style. Similar comments about "Things are Tough All Over."
I'll have to admit JC and the BBB don't do a bad impersonation, but I'd rather
have the real thing.
-- Walt Tucker
Tektronix, Inc.bottom@katadn.DEC (07/19/85)
So Phil is to work with Robert Fripp? Good. I can believe it, I think that most musicians probably think Phil has a great deal of talent. I do although I haven't been buying his albums they are not my type of music. Perhaps Fripp and Collins will produce something good. Here's hoping. dave "Don't make a hobbit of it"
merchant@dartvax.UUCP (Peter Merchant) (07/20/85)
> The first few times I heard "On the Darkside", I could have sworn it was > Bruce. The tempo was right, and the saxophone came in pure Clarence > Clemmons style. Similar comments about "Things are Tough All Over." > Hmm...maybe it's just me and maybe I'm twisted, but I think that "Tough All Over" sounds more like Jackson Browne. Speaking of which, whatever happened to Mr. Browne? -- "With a little perseverence Peter Merchant you can get things done."