mark (10/22/82)
Oh, come now. A college education costs in 5 figures. Another $1000 for
a personal computer won't make that big a difference. I think it's a
great idea. Think of it as an expensive textbook. With that in mind, for
the impoverished student who just can't afford it, there are lots of
alternatives that will no doubt spring up:
(1) Buy it but sell it to an incoming freshman after you complete the course.
(2) Rent one from the bookstore.
(3) Share one with your roommate or a larger number of people.
(4) Go to the library and use one of the ones there.
(5) Use a public computer somewhere else, say in a computer room at the
computer center, or in your dorm. (We all have spent many long hours
in terminal rooms at comp centers, and lately it's common for a dorm
to have a terminal for their students to use.)
The instructor could have you buy a $5 floppy with whatever information is
needed written on it at the beginning of the semester. If the computers
had modems, you could have them dial up weekly (even daily at 4 AM if you
had an auto-dialer) for updated assignments, announcements, test data,
to turn in programs, etc.
I can't believe that they force you to buy a computer, merely that they
assume you have access to one as often as you want it (like a textbook).
What are they going to do - make you turn in your purchase receipt?
I've seen lines at the Berkeley Computer center that take 6 hours to get
to the front of, then you get one hour of connect time at 3 AM on an 11/70
that is so overloaded that you can't get any work done. (They were making
the days of keypunches and FORTRAN look good!) I think personal computers
are a welcome improvement.
I'm still waiting for a personal computer I'd recommend that my friends buy.
So far they all want you to program them in BASIC. How come there isn't
one for under $500 that you program in Pascal? I'd be interested to hear
from people what the least expensive Pascal personal computer system is,
and what the prospects of that coming down soon are. (Maybe we should go
form a startup and make one if nobody already is...)rjs (10/22/82)
(flame on) I agree with Joel Coltoff that a University requiring all its students to buy a personal computer is ludicrous. A personal computer is a total waste of money to anyone who is not interested in playing with an electronic toy. There's nothing a personal computer can do for a student that a typewriter and a calculator can't do just as well if not better. Do they think that students have an infinite source of money? The average student isn't going to know how to fix the damn things when they break. A lot of students might not even recognise that it is broken if its a subtle problem. Then they'll trust answers which can't possibly be right. I say computers should have to prove themselves on the open market, not be forced down peoples throats. So what languages are typically available on personal computers? BASIC and Pascal. Teaching people BASIC is worse than not teaching them any computer language at all. Pascal typically doesn't support real world problems. I really fail to see the point in making everybody learn these things. Hopefully, sometime in the not to far distant future, non-procedural languages will be commonplace and the techniques learned with BASIC and Pascal will be totally useless to the average citizen. I'm afraid Drexel has really gone off the deep end on this one. I wonder how much of a kickback the officials are getting from the computer manufacturer. (flame off) Robert "not afraid to sign his name" Snyder floyd!rjs
hjb (10/22/82)
Stevens Institute of Technology has required incoming Freshman in certain majors to purchase an Atari 800 this year. In a recent article in the Newark Star-Ledger, the officials at the school stated that Freshman in other areas also bought the Atari's. They further stated that each year a committee of the faculty will decide what micro incoming Freshman will have to purchase. (I wonder what happens to someone overlapping two or more years). Harry J. Benson ...!whuxk!hjb
swatt (10/22/82)
There was an article in yesterday's Wall Street Journal about a joint project between IBM and CMU to develop a campus-wide network of 4000 personal computers. The CMU people conceded that incoming freshmen might be required to buy computers. Frankly, I disagree with such a requirement. For such purposes as announcements, administrative communications, etc., traditional methods like student mailboxes are preferable. If the administration wants to interface the computer network to paper in mailboxes, they are welcome to do so. Forcing students, especially in non-technical majors, to use and maintain a computer system is unfair. We who use computers in our daily lives today should be the first to admit that computer-based communication systems aren't reliable and simple enough to FORCE on people for essential communications with a governing administration. If students ARE in techinical majors, then I agree that a computer is a tool they must understand how to use, and if adequate power can be purchased for a reasonable sum (notice I don't define "adequate" and "reasonable"), then perhaps each student owning a personal computer is the best way to absorb the necessary skills. - Alan S. Watt
jis (10/22/82)
I entirely agree with Mark. It is high time that we got a Pascal personal computer for under 500 dollars. It might do a lot of good to people who learn programming on these wonderful little machines, in the way of training in proper programming discipline and style! Besides, remember Prof. Dijkstra's indictment of BASIC? There may be a lot of truth in that. Jishnu Mukerji BTL HO 1B-425 x3427 Ps. I would be game in helping in putting together one, so if there is an effort afoot somewhere do let me know.(via mail to harpo!hocsd!jis).
wexel (10/22/82)
I think you've gone off the deep end. It's no different from any other liberal art. By the way, CMU is "giving" their computer away. I'm sure it's just coincidence that they have a 15% tuition increase at the same time.
furuta (10/23/82)
These messages were forwarded to our bboard a few days back. I think
they'll be interesting to some of you, in light of the recent discussion.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Date: Mon 18 Oct 17:56
From: J-MILLER@CMU-20C
Subject: Computers standard equipme... (2470)
Subject: Computers standard equipment for students
Oct. 17, 1982 7:09 PED
(UPI) In a move described as a "revolution in education,"
Carnegie-Mellon University officials Sunday outlined a unique program
requiring every student to own a personal computer wired to the
school's system. With the program, school president Richard M. Cyert
said, CMU will become the first university to make computers standard
equipment for students. A decision is expected later in the week on
whether IBM or Digital Equipment Corp. will install the computer
network. Cyert said research will continue on the program unitl 1985,
when he expects the campus to be completely wired.
"What we want is a computer-saturated environment," he said.
"I think this will be looked back on as the greatest revolution in
education during the 20th century."
"Every major institution will be following us in a few years,
if they are able," he said.
As planned, by 1985 all of CMU's 8000 to 9000 students and
teachers will own terminals wired into the school's main computer and
library. Students will buy the terminals at a cost of about $750 a
year and keep them when they graduate. Graduates will be able to plug
into the university system from anywhere in the nation, Cyert said. He
said students will be able to use the computers for normal class
assignments and special programs.
"There are just innumerable ways to use it, most of which we
haven't even come up with yet. That's part of what the research
program will do," he said. Cyert estimated the system will allow CMU
to give students 50 percent more information over a four-year period
and "increase a student's productivity."
Another benefit, he said, is that graduates can stay in the
system and "we will be able to keep them up to date on their
education."
Cyert said all students should be able to afford the terminals
because of their relatively low cost and high resale value. He said
he expects most students to keep the computers. "We believe that in
four or five years, every professional will have a personal computer,"
he said.
Cyert said about 25 universities, including Stanford and the
Massachusetts Institute of Technology, have expressed interest in
forming a consortium to learn from the Carnegie-Mellon experiment.
"This is a logical development of computer systems," he said. "We
think this will be the education of the twenty-first century."
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
-------
Date: 20 Oct 1982 16:42
From: DAVID.LEWIN
Subject: IBM-CMU Agreement news rel...
From: DAVID.LEWIN <LEWIN at CMU-20C>
Subject: IBM-CMU Agreement news release
Here is the text of the news release on the personal computing
environment agreement.
Contact: Don Hale For release: 1 p.m., Wednesday,
Carnegie-Mellon and IBM Sign
Joint Development Contract
PITTSBURGH--A prototype distributive computing project designed to
give every student at Carnegie-Mellon University direct personal
access to the full information resources of the university will be
developed jointly by CMU and International Business Machines
Corporation (IBM).
Dr. Richard M. Cyert, president of Carnegie-Mellon, said the goal of
the three-year agreement signed today is to lay the technological
foundation, in equipment and programming, for powerful computer
workstations and communications services to be available to students
and faculty, whether at home in an office or in a laboratory. The
development effort will build on existing software research done by
the CMU Department of Computer Science.
By 1986, several thousand personal workstations for the university's
staff, faculty and 5,500 students will be in place, CMU officials
predict.
"The comprehensive computing environment planned by the university
differs greatly from the traditional way computer facilities have been
used in higher education," Dr. Cyert said.
"For example, in 1991, we expect to have about 7,500 personal
workstations, each with its own powerful computer and graphics
display, all interconnected through a high-speed local area network.
In addition to communications between every workstation, there will be
a unified data file system and a central computing facility available
to all workstations.
"Our objective is to extend this computing system and supporting
network for faculty and students beyond the CMU campus to the greater
Pittsburgh area through cable television or telephone lines," he said.
The agreement with IBM, which involves a commitment through a
three-year development phase, calls for the establishment of an
Information Technology Center (ITC) at the university. It will be
staffed by both IBM and CMU personnel. The agreement also expresses
the intent of IBM to continue its support through 1987, based on
progress of the project.
IBM will provide funds and equipment for the ITC. IBM and CMU
personnel will work together at the center to develop the programming
for the prototype computing environment.
"Carnegie-Mellon is aware that it now costs more than $10,000 annually
for someone to attend college," Dr. Cyert said. "We want to provide
students with a competitive edge, and this is the next step in meeting
the challenges of the future.
"The university remains committed to a financial aid policy that makes
it possible for any qualified student to attend the university."
"Carnegie-Mellon is an appropriate campus for this prototype computing
environment because it is a leader in computer science and
technological innovation," said Dr. Lewis Branscomb, IBM vice
president and chief scientist. "The university is large enough to test
this concept in all disciplines, yet small enough to make the test
economically feasible."
The agreement with IBM provides for the establishment of a consortium
of universities, with each university designating a person as primary
liaison with the CMU-IBM project. Regular meetings of these designated
individuals will be held and, as elements of the integrated computing
environment become operational, they may be made available to members
of the consortium.
-------
- - - - - - - - -
Date: 20 Oct 1982 16:43
From: DAVID.LEWIN
Subject: Technical details of perso...
From: DAVID.LEWIN <LEWIN at CMU-20C>
Subject: Technical details of personal computing plans
This is the technical backgrounder issued at the press ocnference on
the IBM-CMU personal computing agreement. The probable transition
machine is IBM Instruments Division's CS9000 workstation.
Carnegie-Mellon University's Personal Computing Environment
The personal computing environment at Carnegie-Mellon University will
be implemented in two stages, a two-year transition phase introducing
personal workstations into the CMU computing environment, and an
advanced phase, introducing a distributed computing environment.
To get experience in working with personal workstations, a substantial
number of existing machines will be brought into the Carnegie-Mellon
computing environment over the next two years. These transition
machines will be linked to the current computing facilities.
Currently under evaluation as the transition machine is a workstation
with a 16-bit (Motorola 68000) processor and a bit-mapped graphic
display, manufactured by the IBM Instruments Division. Initially,
over a hundred transition machines are expected to be available on
campus in the fall of 1983, growing to several hundred in following
years. Software, including an editor and text processing facilities,
will be developed at the Carnegie-Mellon Computation Center to
function in an environment based on the UNIXtm operating system. It is
expected that FORTRAN, Pascal and the C programming languages will be
supported.
While the transition system is implemented and evaluated, work will be
in progress within the joint CMU-IBM Information Technology Center on
software for the second phase of the university's personal computing
plan. During the transition period, IBM will work on networking and
advanced workstations.
Carnegie-Mellon's objective is to begin deploying the computing
environment resulting from integrating all these elements, including a
new operating system environment for distributed personal computing,
in late 1985.
The workstations will have a 32-bit processor with virtual memory
capable of executing 0.5-1 million instructions per second (MIPS),
from 500,000 to 1 millions bytes of random access memory, a
high-resolution bit-mapped graphics display, and a graphics tablet and
keyboard input. Both an on-board disc memory and color display will be
options.
Rather than using built-in disc storage, clusters of 50 to 100
workstations will share a file server through a local area network;
the clusters will be linked together--and to the university's
mainframe computers--through a backbone network. Users will be able to
access files from any workstation in the network.vax1:kurt (10/25/82)
(flame on) What is wrong with requiring PCs at Drexel? Is Drexel a public school or community college or is it a private school? Private schools are not, after all, required in any way to make education inexpensive. On the other hand, a personal computer is an excellent adjunct to other classroom tools. I think its price is justified as a typewriter alone. (Who among you in net.land would willingly give up your screen editor and go back to an ordinary typewriter and card punch?) Educators are only beginning to realize the potential of computers. If a PC is *required* at a given public institution, arrangements will certainly be made to provide the unit through loans, grants, or government financing, just like books, room and board, and tuition. I note that CS and EE types (who will make greatest use of a PC in education in the short run) can expect substantial income as a result of their education, and can therefore 'afford' personal computers in the sense that they can get a loan to be paid back on graduation. Medical students have been doing just that for years. Banks loan to them because they see a pretty good potential for getting their money back. (afterburners on) Education is *not* a right. Neither the poor nor the wealthy are entitled to an advanced degree by any law, natural, traditional, or statutory. If a student cannot afford an education out of pocket, cannot get a scholarship on merit, cannot get a loan on perceived potential, and cannot find a job to support him at a minimum level while his education is in progress, then perhaps he does not belong in college. It is almost inconceivable that the circumstances that brought such a person to such a point were *totally* beyond that person's control. When others can succeed in circumstances where you fail, it is not the system that is at fault. Each person makes the decisions that control his destiny, and must eventually live with decisions that have been made. (afterburners off) (flame off, for now) Afraid to sign my return address but unable to fool the mail system Kurt Guntheroth
jj (10/26/82)
Well, sir, I can see that you were spared the difficulty of working your way through school, or at least if you weren't, you did it at a time when jobs were readily available, and with a job that was reasonably good. I think that you are completely wrong on several points. The assertions that: 1). Persons of merit will get (enough) scholarship help, 2). Banks like to loan to engineers, and 3). People who "deserve" to get into college will manage to pay, completely ignore what goes on in the real world every day. Schollarship help is in such demand that nobody gets enough. Some people manage to survive, indeed, but most do not. Just look at some statistics from a typical private school, and find out how many students that are on schollarships and work study manage to find enough time to study between classes and work. Banks very much dislike to loan money to college students, partly because of the lower interest rate for the 'guaranteed' loans, and partly becuase of the enormous default rate for the non-guaranteed loans. That banks do loan money at all is due to the government's insistance and guaranteeing of the notes, and to community pressure, in smaller towns.(No, I joke NOT.) School loans absolutely reek, from the bank's viewpoint. As for the third statement, look around you. While colleges are indeed having trouble finding 'qualified' students in some areas, they do not, and you should ask your own alma-mater, have enough money to aid every deserving person that they know about. I got through college on 50% scholarship, 30% loan, and 20% work/going without. I would never do it again, mostly because I wouldn't survive it physically a second time. I have my ulcer healed and my blood pressure mostly controlled. Compared to the people I know who went the same path, I'm lucky. As far as people having a "right" to go to college, the idea is ridiculous. There we agree completely. Of course, if you want anyone to run the world through your old age... don't write me rabbit!jj Good night! I quit this discussion.
jj (10/26/82)
Well, Kurt, that wasn't my last word. I read your article again, and fixated on the part that aruged that the person must have some responsibility for their plight. That statement is untrue, very offensive to me, and also ignores the realities and psychology of families without income. In my own situation, I went to college from an economically depressed region, around Youngstown, Ohio, where even lousy jobs didn't exist. My father was dead, my mother 60 years old and on pension, and myself without any financial resources from the past. I challenge you to show me that I could have fixed the economy of the area, brought my father back to life, found employment for my mother, and created $20,000 of savings. What I could do, I did. I nearly killed myself trying. While it certainly wasn't your fault that this happened, or anyone's for that matter, I greatly resent your assumption that I had control over the situation.(I realize that you do not know me, and you were not directing your comments directly to me, but your statement included me, and I reserve the right to flame back.) Furthermore, I resent your lumping all "economically disadvantaged persons" under the same heading. So would, I suspect, a lot of other people. For the record, I am White, Celtic, and Protestant, and thus I didn't even qualify for the (VERY MINIMAL) affirmative action programs that were then in force, in fact, they continually siphoned resources away from me. rabbit!jj, who is unsubscribing to this newsgroup until he feels the adrenalin shutting off.
minow (10/27/82)
Kurt Guntheroth suggested that "education is not a right" and the student who doesn't have the money, can't convince a bank to lend him the money, and can't get a scholarship from some organization probably doesn't belong in college. Touched a hot button there, Kurt. But the government should recognize the value -- in tax revenues if nothing else -- to the society as a whole of the availability of an education to everyone who wants one and is willing to work hard enough to stay the course. As is probably evident to frequent readers of this forum, some part of my education was in Sweden. A Master's degree in Linguistics, to be precise. The Swedish Universities are tuition-free (there was a $10/term student union fee and you had to buy books, find a place to live, etc.) What did the Swedish society get in return? Well, there's about $100,000 of my combined salery sitting in the government-run pension fund. While I was going to school and working, I was actively contributing to the country's general welfare -- creating work for brewers and bookstore clerks, if nothing else. I also left Sweden with an appreciation for the problems and concerns of a people which have noticable affected my work and personal life. Does that mean that everyone will just camp out in medical school or what? Nope, the university departments establish quotas and students apply during their last year in the gymnasium (about 18-19 years). Entrance is on the basis of grade-point average only (medical schools generally require 4.0 out of 4.0, and run a lottery for the places). There is also a second path for people who have worked, are at least 25 years old and can convince the entrance board that all concerned will benefit from their admittance. One result is that the medical school graduation classes have been 50% female for the last few years. The Swedish method may well not be appropriate for the USA -- there are no simple solutions to complex problems. My feeling, however, is that the attitude represented by Kurt's note is selfish, short-sighted, and ultimately damaging to the needs of this country and its people. Martin Minow, MA (U. of Ill), fil.kand. (U. of Stockholm) decvax!minow
furuta (10/27/82)
Kurt's message contains several statements which I think should be discussed. The first is his assertion that "Education is *not* a right. Neither the poor nor the wealthy are entitled to an advanced degree by any law, natural, traditional, or statutory." The first question that comes to my mind is to ask what an "advanced degree" is, anyway. Is it a B.S. or B.A.? What kind of a job can you, Mr. Average High School Graduate, expect to get? You pretty much seem to need the Bachelor's degree to get a basic job these days, so perhaps the B.A. is a basic degree. In any case, the assertion in Kurt's article is seemingly "if you can't pay for it, you shouldn't have an education." I don't agree with this. I'm sure many of you can state more compelling arguments than can I on this issue (and I hope you will). In my mind, the most important reason for providing access to education for all, regardless of ability to pay, is a social one. Education is probably the most powerful means available for raising a person's economic and social position. It holds far more potential for reducing this country's social problems than do public assistance, food stamps, or other solutions to the immediate problems. I believe I'll leave my statement at that for the moment. --Rick (It's probably just as well that these messages delete themselves after two weeks.)
furuta (10/28/82)
Could someone who knows please give me a thumbnail sketch of Drexel University? --Rick
pcmcgeer (10/28/82)
Some minor points: First, Kurt is right about the accessibility requirements of private colleges: there are none. The social investment in educational accessibility either for reasons of entitlement or as a method of generating future social income is provided by the public and land-grant colleges. Whether this social investment is a good or bad thing is not relevant to the current discussion. Second, the sacrifice a person makes to go to college is mostly foregone income. This amounts to roughly $15K/annum. While I sympathize with those who find the purchase of a $1/2K - $1K PC a burden, still, it can hardly be regarded as a major expense when compared with the ~$60K expense a college education already entails. This point is reinforced by the fact that an individual can almost certainly recover part of the cost by selling his PC after his education has been completed. Third, none of us has enough information. Is it possible that the administrations of CMU and Drexel were convinced that we would soon all have to buy PC's anyhow? If they were, and if they were further able to make a deal with a manufacturer that their students could obtain PC's on the cheap through bulk buying, then their action seems very sensible: their requirement is nothing more than an attempt to ensure that their students get in on the ground floor of a coming revolution at a very cheap price. If there is a netlink to Drexel or CMU, I personally would like to hear from an official there. A half-hour of his bashing at a terminal would prvide some needed PR for his institution, and educate all of us. It might even win him back a disgruntled alumnus (rabbit!jj, if I'm not mistaken). Rick.
rcf (10/30/82)
Education as a right - One or another French author said that It is equally illegal for the rich and the poor to sleep under a bridge. Find me someone who is rich who actually wasn't able to get an education and maybe I'll believe people should have to buy computers. I'm sure there are plenty of people who are employed and reading this who might have trouble coughing up the money for a computer, too. Robert Field, Qume, San Jose