ckk@cmu-cs-g.ARPA (Chris Koenigsberg) (07/05/85)
Genesis died when Peter Gabriel left many years ago. I'm
continually astonished that people continued to listen as they
embarrassed themselves more and more without him. And Phil Collins
is now another pop star like Michael Jackson or Prince! Sad.
Chris Koenigsberg
ckk@cmu-cs-g.arpa
{harvard,seismo,topaz}!cmu-cs-g!ckk
(412)578-8526 office, (412)362-6422 home
Center for Design of Educational Computing
Carnegie-Mellon U.
Pgh, Pa. 15213rios@ihlpg.UUCP (m. rios) (07/09/85)
> Genesis died when Peter Gabriel left many years ago. I'm > continually astonished that people continued to listen as they > embarrassed themselves more and more without him. And Phil Collins > is now another pop star like Michael Jackson or Prince! Sad. > > Chris Koenigsberg *** REPLACE THIS LINE WITH A HOME BY THE SEA *** Genesis dead without Gabriel? Maybe the Gabriel influenced Genesis sound (i.e. The Silent Sun, Foxtrot, Lamb Lies Down) died when Pete left, but a fresher Genesis came out of it. Gabriel leaving Genesis gave Collins a chance to do some writing, and he did/does some great songs (Abacab, ...and then there were Three.); this also gave Banks some breathing room to pull together some good songs, notably most of the work on Trick of the Tail. Gabriel also benefitted from leaving the band, with some very good (though moody) music on his first two solo albums, and some real roarers on the ones after that. Hackett, however, has not done so well (at least from what I heard. Anybody hear any different?). Lastly, Collins's popularity as a pop star is due to the fact that he's an excellent writer/producer. What band would be dead with him in the lead?... -- "I dare you to flame me." (famous last words of someone eaten by the line-eater) Michael A. Rios, the summer student :-)
rlr@pyuxd.UUCP (Rich Rosen) (07/10/85)
> Genesis died when Peter Gabriel left many years ago. I'm > continually astonished that people continued to listen as they > embarrassed themselves more and more without him. And Phil Collins > is now another pop star like Michael Jackson or Prince! Sad. > > Chris Koenigsberg I don't agree with this precisely. "Trick of the Tail" and "Wind and Wuthering" are both really good albums, but for sure they died an embarrassing death thereafter. ("Seconds Out" did give us a chance to hear Bruford and Collins together. That makes two live albums on which Bruford only played on a very small number of tracks out of the whole album. Name the other for a cookie.) What's really embarrassing is how great Phil Collins could have been. "In The Air Tonight" is a monster song, but little else of merit seemed to follow. What's really confusing is why a guy who basically looks like an aging balding golf pro at the local country club would become such a major pop star? Phil Collins with a number one album? I mean, Wham! I can understand as a #1, but Phil Collins? To think that he wasn't even going to sing for the band at all after Gabriel left. They placed ads in Melody Maker and auditioned dozens of singers to replace Gabriel, none of whom worked out. Ironically, his wife said to him "Why don't you sing?" one day, and sure enough, he sounded enough like Gabriel (rangewise and tonewise) to do the job!! I say "ironically", because years later it was his divorce from that same wife that led to his solo career. Do you ever get the feeling that Sting and Phil Collins would have wasted away if it wasn't for those wonderful occurrences in their lives, those horrid divorces and aftermaths at which they get to vent their misogynistic rage? A new genre: divorce rock!!! (You know Frida [AnnaFrida ex- of ABBA] had Collins produce her LP [the one with "Something Going On"] because she had just gone through a divorce and liked *his* album on the subject.)
evan@petfe.UUCP (Evan Marcus) (07/10/85)
Boy, I hate to see Phil lumped into the same class with Michael Jackson and
Prince(ss)! (I wish I had the article to quote from.) They are 'media-
phenoms' and while MJ can dance and even sing tolerably (though not as well
as when he was with his brothers), he is nothing more than an adequate
performer. In my opinion Prince is talentless. My theory about why he never
showed up at the USA for Africa sessions is because he would have melted
like the Wicked Witch, in front of all that real talent.
Collins, on the other hand, is light-hearted, doesn't take himself too
seriously (did you see him on Letterman or Carson, and would those other
2 clowns ever do that?????), plus he is immensely talented! I have
liked his work since I heard his first solo album. I think it's great!
Now that Phil has become an 'overnight success', you can't get near his
concerts, and those people who automatically hate anyone who is a success
start to emerge from the woodwork. I wish his solo career still left him
in the Top 20, but no better. Then it'd still be cool to like him.
--Evan Marcus
--
{ucbvax|decvax}!vax135!petsd!petfe!evan
...!pedsgd!pedsga!evan
"Gonna hit the ball, and touch 'em all,
A moment in the sun.
It's a-gone and you can tell that one goodbye."jeff@dciem.UUCP (Jeff Richardson) (07/12/85)
> Boy, I hate to see Phil lumped into the same class with Michael Jackson and > Prince(ss)! (I wish I had the article to quote from.) They are 'media- > phenoms' and while MJ can dance and even sing tolerably (though not as well > as when he was with his brothers), he is nothing more than an adequate > performer. In my opinion Prince is talentless. > .... > Collins, on the other hand, is light-hearted, doesn't take himself too > seriously (did you see him on Letterman or Carson, and would those other > 2 clowns ever do that?????), plus he is immensely talented! I have > liked his work since I heard his first solo album. I think it's great! > .... > --Evan Marcus I would have agreed until Phil's latest album, "No Jacket Required". The album seems pretty boring overall, and the best song on it is a blatant rip-off of Prince's "1999". (When I posted my review of "No Jacket Required" a few months ago, I said they were "very similar", or something like that. That was based on vague memories of "1999" from about two years ago, but recently I heard the two songs played back-to-back on the radio, and now I wonder why Prince isn't suing.) Whether Prince is a "talentless clown", as Evan calls him, is irrelevant. We know Phil is capable of much better, and he doesn't have to steal music from anybody. As recently as 1983, I was convinced that he still wanted to make interesting music, but now I'm not so sure. He seems to be much more concerned with doing as much as he can (solo work, Genesis, and producing, drumming and singing for other people), whether it's good or not. -- Jeff Richardson, DCIEM, Toronto (416) 635-2073 {linus,ihnp4,uw-beaver,floyd}!utcsri!dciem!jeff {allegra,ihnp4,linus,decvax}!utzoo!dciem!jeff
kimery@wdl1.UUCP (Sam Kimery) (07/13/85)
Too bad Phil never learned how to play drums .......... I enjoy Phil and Genesis much better when Phil stays in front of the drums and behind the mike. Sam
rlr@pyuxd.UUCP (Rich Rosen) (07/16/85)
> Too bad Phil never learned how to play drums .......... > I enjoy Phil and Genesis much better when Phil stays in front > of the drums and behind the mike. > Sam Pardon me for impinging on one man's personal taste, but, you're joking, right? Phil is an only adequate singer (with slightly Gabriel-like intonation and limited real range), but a superb drummer (witness REAL Genesis albums like "Selling England by the Pound", "Foxtrot" or "Lamb"). Occasionally he actually remembers this fact (he tried to some degree at Live Aid). He's also written some very good music, for Genesis and occasionally for himself. I don't dislike Collins, in fact, I think he's a really talented musician who's been swallowed up by star machine bullshit. Shame, really. -- Anything's possible, but only a few things actually happen. Rich Rosen pyuxd!rlr
brandx@ihlpl.UUCP (H. D. Weisberg) (07/16/85)
> > Too bad Phil never learned how to play drums ..........
The drumming in some of the older Genesis is great, I agree,
but I've actually learned to like some of the drumming in
the more recent stuff. I remember reading years ago (when
Phil Collins was good) that he played in Brand X because
Genesis music didn't allow that kind of drumming (improvisation).
Well I guess new Genesis is pretty simple stuff and his
drumming fits right in. I actually think that for basic,
never skip a beat type drumming, he shows a lot of taste.
I love the drumming on "The Battle of Epping Forest" (one of
THE greatest Genesis songs) and lots of other stuff (he SOUNDED
really good on Trick of the Tail), but for me, the best drumming
he did was with Brand X on Unorthodox Behaviour and Morrocan Roll.
The title track on the last Brand X album shows Phil in his Tony
Williams shoes.hhs@hou2h.UUCP (H.SHARP) (07/17/85)
If you want to hear more good drumming by Phil Collins, check out some of the Brand X albums that can probably be found in cutout bins now.
cjbiggin@watmath.UUCP (Colin Biggin) (07/17/85)
In article <484@wdl1.UUCP> kimery@wdl1.UUCP (Sam Kimery) writes: >Too bad Phil never learned how to play drums .......... > > I enjoy Phil and Genesis much better when Phil stays in front >of the drums and behind the mike. > Sam Sam, are you serious, yes you must be, no smiley face. Then you must have no taste. Anybody who knows anything about anything knows that Phil is an excellent drummer. A better drummer than singer!! However, I will concede you one point. If you are basing your statement on his last album (No Jacket Required), then you might be right. Since on most of the songs he uses a drum machine. This leads one to ponder the question... Why is a perfectly capable and talented drummer using a drum machine ??? I know the drum-machine discussion took place about two months ago, but I still can't-for-the-honest-to-GOD-life-of-me understand why Phil Collins used drum machines on NJR. They add NOTHING to the album, but detract from it... And NJR is not as good as 'Face Value' or 'Hello, I Must Be Going'... -- cheers, Colin Biggin University of Waterloo "I woke up, read the Toronto Star, and discovered I was a 'yuppie'"
tp@ndm20 (07/17/85)
By the way, for someone who mentioned Hackett, Please Don't Touch (was that the title?) and Voyage of the Acolyte are both very good, especially the latter. I'm surprised nobody else commented on it. Trick of the Tail and Wind and Wuthering are very good. I actually have heard only a little of Genesis with Gabriel. Some of it I liked, some I didn't, but of course that's how I got into Yes, and now I love them. Seems to me that Genesis really died when Hackett left, and he burned out shortly thereafter (I may be wrong, but I think Voyage was done as a solo effort while he was still with the band). They have put out a few good numbers since then, nothing like their earlier greatness, but good (Abacab, (Second) Home by the Sea, etc..), but what bugs me most about their current lineup is the fact that they don't credit Daryl Stuermer or Chester Thompson as full fledged members of the band. They are both good musicians and deserve better (If you can ever get an album called Angels of the Deep, or a self-titled album by Sweetbottom, you'll hear just how good Stuermer is. He also played with Zappa, and I think once with Ponty). Another good Genesis spinoff is Anthony Phillips. He is a guitarist who I believe was actually a member of Genesis for a short time, but I am not sure (I'm sure someone will tell me :-). He is a guitarist and has put out several solo albums. On one of them at least he had all of Genesis except Hackett (I believe that included Gabriel at the time). Both of his albums that I have found are quite good and worth buying. Terry Poot
dsc@daemon.UUCP (David S. Comay) (07/19/85)
In article <373@petfe.UUCP> evan@petfe.UUCP (Evan Marcus) writes: >Boy, I hate to see Phil lumped into the same class with Michael Jackson and >Prince(ss)! (I wish I had the article to quote from.) They are 'media- >phenoms' and while MJ can dance and even sing tolerably (though not as well >as when he was with his brothers), he is nothing more than an adequate >performer. In my opinion Prince is talentless. My theory about why he never >showed up at the USA for Africa sessions is because he would have melted >like the Wicked Witch, in front of all that real talent. Hmm, what an interesting comment considering that Collin's latest single sounds remarkably like Prince's `1999'. I guess it is just a coincidence. :-) David
oyster@uwmacc.UUCP (Vicious Oyster) (07/19/85)
In article <982@hou2h.UUCP> hhs@hou2h.UUCP (H.SHARP) writes: >If you want to hear more good drumming by Phil Collins, check >out some of the Brand X albums that can probably be found in >cutout bins now. Especially good are "Product" (don't let the garish cover throw you off) and, uh... maybe I should've waited until Monday to post this so I can go home and check out my record collection, but I believe the album I have in mind is called "Masque" (anyway, it's got the song "Deadly Nightshade" on it). The liner notes for "Product" are hilarious- well worth a cut-out bin price alone. -- - joel "vo" plutchak {allegra,ihnp4,seismo}!uwvax!uwmacc!oyster "Take what I say in a different way and it's easy to say that this is all confusion."
brandx@ihlpl.UUCP (H. D. Weisberg) (07/19/85)
> but what bugs me most about their current lineup is the fact that they don't > credit Daryl Stuermer or Chester Thompson as full fledged members of the band. > They are both good musicians and deserve better (If you can ever get an album > called Angels of the Deep, or a self-titled album by Sweetbottom, you'll hear > just how good Stuermer is. He also played with Zappa, and I think once with > Ponty). > Although Stuermer played with Sweetbottom, it was his brother who played on Angels of the Deep. Daryl also didn't play on one other Sweetbottom album I know of. Sweetbottom is now gone. They're known as "Oceans" know; I've heard nothing good about them, only that they've gone more commercial. I think Alfonso Johnson discovered Stuermer and from there word spread. I don't think he ever played with Zappa. He did play with Ponty on lots of albums (his acoustic solo on "New Country" is great) but he really is more of a "typical fusion player" with nothing really original to offer in this style. Listen to his solos on Enigmatic Ocean and see how typical "I can play as fast as you" he sounds next to a master like Allan Holdsworth. Stuermer was supposed to release a solo album that he recorded around the time "Duke" came out. Does anyone know what happenned to it? Chester Thompson played with Zappa (he says that this experience was like being in grad. school) and is quite awesome on "One Size Fits All" and "Roxy and Elsewhere." He played on "Black Market" with Weather Report (most of the drumming on that album is Michael Walden).
rosen@ucbvax.ARPA (Rob Rosen) (07/21/85)
From: rosen (Rob Rosen)
Message-Id: <8507210650.AA02618@UCB-VAX.ARPA>
Organisation: University of California
To: tp@ndm20
Subject: Re: Genesis died when Pete left
Newsgroups: net.music
In-Reply-To: <1000007@ndm20>
References: <288@cmu-cs-g.ARPA>
Organization: University of California at Berkeley
Cc:
I really like VOYAGE..., SPECTRAL MORNINGS, and Steve's more or less
all-acoustic import-only LP entitled BAY OF KINGS (on Lamborghini Records).
BOK has some of the most beautiful classical guitar melodies that I have ever
heard - Steve records his guitar in what sounds like a very natural sort of
echo chambre, and the resulting recording always gives me the impression that
I'm hearing a soulful guitarist play inside of a large canyon. The other
lps I have ( DEFECTOR and HIGHLY STRUNG) are not nearly as good. My impression
is that Steve left the band because he felt that he was no longer a member -
most of the material he had written for the WIND & WUTHERING set was ignored
by Tony Banks and the stuff that DID appear was not that which Steve felt were
his best efforts. As a result, he compiled much of the music and put it onto
VOYAGE and the Genesis EP SPOT THE PIGEON. I think his electric stuff now is
getting boring but I still love his acoustic work.
As for Anthony Phillips -- a rather sad story. He was one of the original
founders of Genesis and was a fundamental member through TRESPASS. Apparently,
as the band became more and more popular, Anthony started to develop an acute
case of stage fright until he felt he was no longer able to perform with the
band live; at this point he left, and was replaced by Steve Hackett. He has
released a number of albums; the earlier ones reflect more acoustic twelve-
string work (which by the way I feel is one of the shining attractions of early
Genesis), whereas the later albums are more electronically oriented (see 1984,
a more or less entirely keyboards-centred album). He has participated in
Mike Rutherford's first solo album (as a keyboards - player) and now apparently
fronts a band (I forgot the name) which has released an album recently. Perhaps
he has gotten over the stage fright which unfortunately has apparently made him
lose much of his self-confidence (I recall reading a story wherein Ant describeda Genesis concert in the latter Seventies which he attended - he was surprised
that a few of his fellow audience-members actually knew who he was); here's
hoping that he will grace us with his presence in the future.
--
"And from these endless days
Shall come a broader sympathy"
--Rob Rosen
ucbvax!rosen
--
"And from these endless days
Shall come a broader sympathy"
--Rob Rosen
ucbvax!rosen