lindblad@cc.helsinki.fi (03/05/91)
> 5). The Amiga is a great graphics machine... particulalry when you > have vendors like NewTek putting out the Video Toaster. > Anything like that going to happen for the TT? > > ** There will be a direct marriage of Video Toaster with TT > put out by reputable company THIS YEAR. > > Really? Some people buy the Amiga FOR the Toaster. > > ** Definitely! You will definitely see the Video Toaster on the > TT this year. NewTek wants the ATARI market. I find that hard to believe in. Why would Newtek want ST market? There are even fewer STs on professional use than Amigas. I don't think that Toaster will ever be reconstructed to any other machine but Amiga 3000 since they won't even reconstruct it for IBM PC or compatibles. The reason is simple: Amiga is most suitable for videowork of all major personal computers (well, NeXT may be as good as Amiga). Toaster for ST/TT is reality only in your imagination. And will be. -- Jarkko Lindblad lindblad@cc.helsinki.fi
ramsiri@blake.u.washington.edu (Enartloc Nhoj) (03/05/91)
In article <1991Mar4.210336.5415@cc.helsinki.fi> lindblad@cc.helsinki.fi writes: >> 5). The Amiga is a great graphics machine... particulalry when you >> have vendors like NewTek putting out the Video Toaster. >> Anything like that going to happen for the TT? >> >> ** There will be a direct marriage of Video Toaster with TT >> put out by reputable company THIS YEAR. >> >> Really? Some people buy the Amiga FOR the Toaster. >> >> ** Definitely! You will definitely see the Video Toaster on the >> TT this year. NewTek wants the ATARI market. > > >I find that hard to believe in. Why would Newtek want ST market? There are even >fewer STs on professional use than Amigas. I don't think that Toaster will ever >be reconstructed to any other machine but Amiga 3000 since they won't even >reconstruct it for IBM PC or compatibles. The reason is simple: Amiga is most >suitable for videowork of all major personal computers (well, NeXT may be as >good as Amiga). Toaster for ST/TT is reality only in your imagination. And >will be. > >-- > Jarkko Lindblad > lindblad@cc.helsinki.fi > Well, for one, the ATARI TT/030 is opening up new markets for ATARI. As you might know, Europe, and Germany in particular, is loaded with ATARIs, not AMIGAS.. perhaps the third party co that is doing the marriage between the Toaster and the TT is shooting for that market. In any event, NewTek is cooperating with the port. Why are Amiga owners threatened by the possiblity that the Toaster might be running on another platform? Does this make the Toaster running on the Amiga any less useful? I don't get it? If someone is wants go buy an AMiga, they will buy it. If someone wants to buy a TT and a Video Toaster, they'll buy it. And everyone can be happy. I really don't see why Amiga owners don't want to see hardware developed for other machines. It is a very strange concept. I use NOTATOR on the ST.. i wish it were running on Macs and AMigas.. just so that friends, who own these other systems, and I could share music a bit more freely. Are mac people freaked out that Aldus ported Pagemaker to MS-dos? Should ST people be freaked out that PageStream was ported to the Amiga? I honestly don't care?.. if anything, am pleased that AMiga owners have the option of using PageStream if they choose. Still don't get it.. kevin ramsiri@blake.acs.washington.edu
csc23042@sumax.seattleu.edu (Dave Jorgan) (03/05/91)
In article <17671@milton.u.washington.edu> ramsiri@blake.u.washington.edu (Enartloc Nhoj) writes: > >In article <1991Mar4.210336.5415@cc.helsinki.fi> lindblad@cc.helsinki.fi writes: **********Toaster-to-ST comments deleted****************************** >>fewer STs on professional use than Amigas. I don't think that Toaster will ever >>be reconstructed to any other machine but Amiga 3000 since they won't even >>reconstruct it for IBM PC or compatibles. The reason is simple: Amiga is most >>suitable for videowork of all major personal computers (well, NeXT may be as >>good as Amiga). Toaster for ST/TT is reality only in your imagination. And >>will be. >> Jarkko Lindblad >> lindblad@cc.helsinki.fi >Well, for one, the ATARI TT/030 is opening up new markets for ATARI. >As you might know, Europe, and Germany in particular, is loaded with >ATARIs, not AMIGAS.. perhaps the third party co that is doing the >marriage between the Toaster and the TT is shooting for that market. >In any event, NewTek is cooperating with the port. > >Why are Amiga owners threatened by the possiblity that >the Toaster might be running on another platform? >Does this make the Toaster running on the Amiga any less >useful? I don't get it? > >If someone is wants go buy an AMiga, they will buy it. >If someone wants to buy a TT and a Video Toaster, they'll >buy it. And everyone can be happy. I really don't see >why Amiga owners don't want to see hardware developed for >other machines. It is a very strange concept. I use NOTATOR >on the ST.. i wish it were running on Macs and AMigas.. >just so that friends, who own these other systems, and I could >share music a bit more freely. > >Are mac people freaked out that Aldus ported Pagemaker to MS-dos? >Should ST people be freaked out that PageStream was ported to the >Amiga? I honestly don't care?.. if anything, am pleased that >AMiga owners have the option of using PageStream if they choose. > >Still don't get it.. > >kevin >ramsiri@blake.acs.washington.edu Speaking for myself, the point I was making was that this story is more than a little incredible. Considering how militant NewTek is concerning the Amiga, and the way they stiff-armed IBM and Apple (story was that Sculley was very angry after he learned NewTek had no intention whatsoever to move the Toaster over to Mac), it is hard to believe that suddenly they have decided to support a much smaller market than those mentioned above. Irregardless of the ST/Amiga debates, the reason the Toaster is on the Amiga is because it uses/needs the custom chipset of the Amiga. It is not just a plug-in peripheral that can be adapted to any host just by modifying the form factor or some connection changes. Seeing as how the vast majority of ST's have been sold with no form of expansion bus ( unless you count the cartridge port) this makes it harder to understand how this device will be transferred over. The re- engineering needed to do so would seem to imply it will be longer than "within the year." But, I defer to any EE's who will claim otherwise. :^) Also, it needs at least 5 megs RAM, and current ST's (not the TT, of course) are limited to 4 megs (unless you go on the Mega expansion bus- don't know if anybody has done this or not.) If we are speaking of the TT, then I would have to say the existing installed base of TT's is most likely not large. I don't think I am being unfair when I say this. Anyway, it would be neat if the ST also got the Toaster. For reasons I have listed, it seems unlikely to me. In light of the attitude and mud-slinging the Lexicor man did, it seems even less likely this is the case. (In fact, this is the main reason why I think this is a false rumor.) But stranger things have happened, and if it indeed comes out for the ST, then that will be very good news indeed, because this is a very powerful peripheral. If sombody wants it bad enough, they'll do it. Dave csc23042@sumax.seattleu.edu
wmagro@firenze.uiuc.edu (William Magro) (03/05/91)
In article <1991Mar4.210336.5415@cc.helsinki.fi>, lindblad@cc.helsinki.fi writes: |> > ** Definitely! You will definitely see the Video Toaster on the |> > TT this year. NewTek wants the ATARI market. |> [mutiple flames deleted] |> Toaster for ST/TT is reality only in your imagination. And |> will be. |> Before we char this guy, why don't we find out his credentials. Not a lot of people speak with this kind of confidence unless they have inside info. It sounds as if he is _in contact_ with the ToastMasters (NewTek). Defend your- self!! You are starting to burn... ( I want to believe you!) --Bill Magro
rdthomps@vela.acs.oakland.edu (Robert D. Thompson) (03/05/91)
> >I find that hard to believe in. Why would Newtek want ST market? There are even >fewer STs on professional use than Amigas. I don't think that Toaster will ever >be reconstructed to any other machine but Amiga 3000 since they won't even >reconstruct it for IBM PC or compatibles. The reason is simple: Amiga is most >suitable for videowork of all major personal computers (well, NeXT may be as >good as Amiga). Toaster for ST/TT is reality only in your imagination. And >will be. > What about Intels DVI for the PC. I attended a Developers Workshop for DVI this Fall. The hardware seems so much more advanced than what the Amiga provides (at least from the video tape they sent me). DVI allows you to author video on a CD - WITH COMPRESSION! It provides all the special effects, output options, etc... The Amiga is impressive, but I think I'll wait until I can afford DVI - it is just so much better. Regards |(8> --- Robert -- I am also looking for this information, could you please forward any responses ?
don@brahms.udel.edu (Donald R Lloyd) (03/05/91)
In article <17671@milton.u.washington.edu> ramsiri@blake.u.washington.edu (Enartloc Nhoj) writes: [Toaster to ST/TT stuff deleted] > >> >>I find that hard to believe in. Why would Newtek want ST market? There are even >>fewer STs on professional use than Amigas. I don't think that Toaster will ever >>be reconstructed to any other machine but Amiga 3000 since they won't even >>reconstruct it for IBM PC or compatibles. The reason is simple: Amiga is most >>suitable for videowork of all major personal computers (well, NeXT may be as >>good as Amiga). Toaster for ST/TT is reality only in your imagination. And >>will be. >> > >Well, for one, the ATARI TT/030 is opening up new markets for ATARI. >As you might know, Europe, and Germany in particular, is loaded with >ATARIs, not AMIGAS.. perhaps the third party co that is doing the >marriage between the Toaster and the TT is shooting for that market. >In any event, NewTek is cooperating with the port. > Unfortunately the Toaster does not support PAL (the European standard) video signals, so it would be rather useless for companies there to spend a lot of money on a machine which will be basically useless in their countries except for its frame buffer capabilities, which can be had 'standalone' at a much lower price. As far as the # of Ataris vs. Amigas in Europe, I've heard several figures lately that would seem to argue in favor of the Amiga. Namely, a british computer magazine listing the top 10 computer companies (in units shipped) which went something like this: 1. Commodore 2. IBM 3. Compaq 4. Atari ........etc Also, Commodore's profits in the past two quarters have been extraordinarily high (for Commodore), and according to the quarterly report they send to stockholders, this is due in large part to something like a 50% increase in Amiga sales. As of last year around the time the 2 millionth Amiga shipped, 75% of those were in Europe. >Why are Amiga owners threatened by the possiblity that >the Toaster might be running on another platform? >Does this make the Toaster running on the Amiga any less >useful? I don't get it? > Probably because the Toaster represents a very key product on the road to professional respectability for the Amiga, and Amiga users need to hold on to anything that will be helpful in that area. To have it ported to another machine, whether it be ST, PC, Mac, or other, takes that edge away. >If someone is wants go buy an AMiga, they will buy it. >If someone wants to buy a TT and a Video Toaster, they'll >buy it. > Err, if they can find one, that is (the TT _or_ the TT Toaster ) :-) :-) > >Are mac people freaked out that Aldus ported Pagemaker to MS-dos? >Should ST people be freaked out that PageStream was ported to the >Amiga? I honestly don't care?.. if anything, am pleased that >AMiga owners have the option of using PageStream if they choose. > Out of curiosity, is SoftLogik still providing PS upgrades? I've been using the Amiga v2.1 and am pretty impressed with it. -- Gibberish May the Publications Editor, AmigaNetwork is spoken fork() be Contact don@brahms.udel.edu for more information. here. with you. DISCLAIMER: It's all YOUR fault.
news@cs.Helsinki.FI (news) (03/05/91)
>> ** There will be a direct marriage of Video Toaster with TT >> put out by reputable company THIS YEAR. > > >I find that hard to believe in. Why would Newtek want ST market? There are even >fewer STs on professional use than Amigas. I don't think that Toaster will ever >be reconstructed to any other machine but Amiga 3000 since they won't even >reconstruct it for IBM PC or compatibles. The reason is simple: Amiga is most >suitable for videowork of all major personal computers (well, NeXT may be as >good as Amiga). Toaster for ST/TT is reality only in your imagination. And >will be. > >-- > Jarkko Lindblad > lindblad@cc.helsinki.fi > From: luoto@cs.Helsinki.FI (Markku Luoto) Path: kreeta!luoto You sound like a amiga user, very much indeed, if you find something hard to bellieve, is the problem with your/somebody else's imagination or what ?!? Fewer st/TT:s in prof use than amigas? how many european BIG TV companies can you name using amiga solely for their very professional genlock work ? (like logo's , add's etc.) Tele-5 in germany (approx. spred 52 milj.people) has used good old st for it, as well as for other applications (texting etc.) and they're now mowing to TT and said it's a hole new world !!! - and ONE OF THE REASONS FOR TT INVESTMENT BEING THE VIDEO-TOASTER -If you can get a copy of 2/89 of the 68000'er magazine, start reading from page 42 and find out that many things that A3000 does with Vid.Toast... are, and have been done with st and specially customised programs for years ! But the fact is:"If you can shape it in your mind, you will find it in your TT" >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< >>>>>> " I'm completely operational & all my cicuits are functioning <<<<<< >>>>>> correctly...correc...corr...co...-! " : HAl9000 <<<<<< >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
rjc@geech.ai.mit.edu (Ray Cromwell) (03/06/91)
In article <1991Mar5.023512.3478@vela.acs.oakland.edu> rdthomps@vela.acs.oakland.edu (Robert D. Thompson) writes: >> >>I find that hard to believe in. Why would Newtek want ST market? There are even >>fewer STs on professional use than Amigas. I don't think that Toaster will ever >>be reconstructed to any other machine but Amiga 3000 since they won't even >>reconstruct it for IBM PC or compatibles. The reason is simple: Amiga is most >>suitable for videowork of all major personal computers (well, NeXT may be as >>good as Amiga). Toaster for ST/TT is reality only in your imagination. And >>will be. >> > > What about Intels DVI for the PC. I attended a Developers > Workshop for DVI this Fall. The hardware seems so much > more advanced than what the Amiga provides (at least from > the video tape they sent me). DVI allows you to author > video on a CD - WITH COMPRESSION! It provides all the > special effects, output options, etc... > > The Amiga is impressive, but I think I'll wait until I > can afford DVI - it is just so much better. Well, from all accounts I've heard. DVI still cannot do full screen 60 frames per second animation. Not only that, the harddrive and bus speed to fetch full color frames from the HD, simulatenously decompress and display can only be found on the Amiga, or the HIGH end PC's.($$$) What would also hinder my decision is that choosing a PC(why is Personal COmputer synonymous with IBM?) means I'll have to deal with MS-DOS the worst disk ooperating system ever invented. No matter how much you hate the Amiga, you'll have to agree that the 11 character file format and MS-DOS file system is a large bottleneck. AmigaDOS is much like the Unix your probably typing this message on. If your smart, you'd wait till the Motion Picture Experts Group finalizes the MPEG compression standard for motion video. JPEG has already proved it's usefullness. Commodore is already supposed to license the MPEG chip from C-cube when it's finalized for use, to be used in both Amiga's and CDTV. (RUMOR) The Video toaster blows away DVI's special effects with LIVE video effects in real time, including Chroma Fx, character generation, multiple input sources. There is also a device on the Amiga called the Video Blender, which is nothing more then a 'SuperGenlock' that can be programmed with DVI wipe/transition effects (over 400 DVI wipes are supplied with the device, more can be made by the user with an editor) Remember, the Toaster can be used on a A2000 @7mhz, whilst DVI probably requires a SuperDuperMega 486/386. > Regards |(8> >--- >Robert >-- > > I am also looking for this information, could > you please forward any responses ?
rjc@churchy.ai.mit.edu (Ray Cromwell) (03/06/91)
In article <11991@hydra.Helsinki.FI> news@cs.Helsinki.FI (news) writes: >>> ** There will be a direct marriage of Video Toaster with TT >>> put out by reputable company THIS YEAR. >> >> [unbelievable message about NewTek overlooking IBM and MAC to port toaster to ST deleted] >From: luoto@cs.Helsinki.FI (Markku Luoto) >Path: kreeta!luoto > >You sound like a amiga user, very much indeed, if you find something hard to bellieve, >is the problem with your/somebody else's imagination or what ?!? > >Fewer st/TT:s in prof use than amigas? > how many european BIG TV companies can you name using amiga solely for their > very professional genlock work ? (like logo's , add's etc.) I can't speak for Europe, but I can find about 20 or 30 channels on my local cable station that use Amigas. (How do I know? I've seen GURU msgs, Amiga Workbench screens, etc when flipping through channels when the cable channel was reseting. Also, I have an eye for Amiga grafix and software.) >Tele-5 in germany (approx. spred 52 milj.people) has used good old st for it, >as well as for other applications (texting etc.) and they're now mowing to TT >and said it's a hole new world !!! >- and ONE OF THE REASONS FOR TT INVESTMENT BEING THE VIDEO-TOASTER >-If you can get a copy of 2/89 of the 68000'er magazine, start reading from >page 42 and find out that many things that A3000 does with Vid.Toast... are, >and have been done with st and specially customised programs for years ! Frankly, what one markettroid/editroid said in a magazine doesn't impress me. I've been reading misinformation in BYTE, Pc magazine, and others for years. The A3000 wasn't out in 2/89, and neither was the Toaster, so I find it even harder to believe. Finally, what can be done in software, cannot match the Toaster fully. The Toaster is a hardware device that comes with great software. The hardware allows you to buffer and switch live video, while performing character generation/titling in real time and digital video effects/chroma fx in real time. What can be done with the st and speciallly customize programs is perhaps generate character titles, perform some effects on still picture frames, but I doubt software alone is going to match the Toaster. The Toaster's price is extraordinary. The software alone that comes with it (LightWave3d and Toasterpaint) would cost atleast $600, combine this with the Hardware you get for only $1500. The big reason the Lexicor article was unbelievable is this: 1) NewTek announced that the Toaster would never be ported to another platform, and they would remain dedicated to the Amiga market. 2) The Toaster software and Hardware relies on the ability of the Amiga's custom chips. 3) Some, if not all of the toaster's software is written in assembly making a port difficult. 4) The Toaster's software is integrated for a multitasking environment with interprocess communication and the Amiga's Arexx IPC language making #3 on this list more difficult. 5) The Lexicor article stated they compared an AMiga 3000 against a TT display, but from the sound of it, they actually used an Amiga 1000. a) The Amiga display no longer 'jaggies' on the edge of it. b) The Amiga display, while having the power of interlace for video work, also includes flicker free modes now. Ranging from 160x480(or 960 interlaced) all the way to 1280x200 noninterlaced(or x400 laced) with every mode inbetween (including 640x480, or 768x512 PAL) c) Saying a TT did a raytrace in 1 hour while an Amiga3000 took 24 hours. I don't care if the TT was running at 90mhz '030 and the Amiga was using a ray-tracer in written in Basic, nothing justisfies such a speed gap unless 1) The TT had some special processor card helping 2) They were actually comparing it against a 7mhz 2000 like I suspect 3) The TT wasn't running a real raytracer, but a customized renderer. 4) for a point of comparision, the Toaster renders the standard Teapot, with a chroma rippled surface and image mapped onto it in 10-15 MINUTES. There are some reasons it can do this. It was written in assembly code(optimized for speed) and it DOESN'T raytrace. Instead, LightWave3d uses the scanline based approach (which normally doesn't do shadows or reflections) and cleverly adds in efficient shadowing and reflections. The differences in output quality from a real ray-tracer and LightWave's render is so small, I can't tell the difference. I may have believed Lexicor's article, but it reaked of half-trues and total misinformation. It wasn't comparing to the AMiga, it was bashing it. If they really were comparing it to the Amiga 3000 this makes it even sadder. Because then it would have to be either BLATANT lies, or the Lexicor guy who did the comparision was SO inept at his job that he didn't even know how to change the screen preferences. Any idiot can click on the Prefs icon and select a non-interlaced screen, or turn on the Display Enhancer. In fact, the default configuration setup of the 3000 is non-interlaced display enhanced. Futhermore, to make an A3000 raytrace that slow, you'd need to have the 16mhz version, with only a 68881, then you'd have to use up all the 32bit Fast ram, so the raytracer would be forced to load into the slow video (chip) memory. So you see, with these mistruths/lies in the Lexicor article, no Amiga user in his right mind would believe the Toaster is being ported by NewTek, or some Atari company is making an interface that doesn;t require the purchase of an Amiga, since they'd have to rewrite all the Toaster software from scratch, or else reverse engineer-pirate it. >But the fact is:"If you can shape it in your mind, you will find it in your TT" "Make up your own mind! AMIGA" "The computer for the creative mind." "Multimedia since 1985." "The coolest device of 1990 was the Video Toaster." Or how about a machine that can transfer over 1.9 megabytes per second from the disk while only using 1% of the CPU. I don't now why the hell this is in comp.graphics, take it to comp.sys.amiga. advocacy. > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< >>>>>>> " I'm completely operational & all my cicuits are functioning <<<<<< >>>>>>> correctly...correc...corr...co...-! " : HAl9000 <<<<<< >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
jimm@amiga.UUCP (Jim Mackraz) (03/06/91)
(Robert D. Thompson) writes:
)
) What about Intels DVI for the PC. I attended a Developers
) Workshop for DVI this Fall. The hardware seems so much
) more advanced than what the Amiga provides (at least from
) the video tape they sent me). DVI allows you to author
) video on a CD - WITH COMPRESSION! It provides all the
) special effects, output options, etc...
)
) The Amiga is impressive, but I think I'll wait until I
) can afford DVI - it is just so much better.
Amiga and DVI have many things in common, in particular, both have a
hampered life due to certain "standards" problems. In the Amiga,
it's PC-crap, and for DVI it's JPEG.
DVI and Toaster have virtually nothing in common, function-wise,
except that the output is sort of video for both.
By the time that DVI has some software, the Amiga might have
full-motion video. And don't get to carried away with the
"compression on your desk" angle with DVI. It's lack of
full-power compression in real-time (a so-called "asymmetric
compression scheme") is another big problem it has going up
against the much more boring JPEG.
)Robert
I see you're posting from Oakland University. I went there for
a year. Want some more free advice ... ? Send me email.
jimm
--
--- opinions expressed herein are my own. ---
"... Because they can."
- profound punchline to joke about dogsgl8f@astsun.astro.Virginia.EDU (Greg Lindahl) (03/06/91)
In article <1991Mar5.181215.26534@mintaka.lcs.mit.edu> rjc@churchy.ai.mit.edu (Ray Cromwell) writes: >I don't now why the hell this is in comp.graphics, take it to comp.sys.amiga. >advocacy. No! Please take stupid computer wars to alt.flame or alt.religion.computers. Don't continue to cross-post them to Amiga, ST, and graphics groups. Flame-war prevention starts at home.
jet@karazm.math.uh.edu ("J. Eric Townsend") (03/06/91)
In article <1991Mar5.023512.3478@vela.acs.oakland.edu> rdthomps@vela.acs.oakland.edu (Robert D. Thompson) writes: > the video tape they sent me). DVI allows you to author > video on a CD - WITH COMPRESSION! It provides all the > special effects, output options, etc... You can author laserdiscs just fine with the Amiga. Amiga World did an article on how to do it, including a list of companies that press discs and their pricing structures. Hell, you don't even need a computer, just a good editing suite. CBM is courting a company that does real-time compression to-from CDs. 'nuff said. -- J. Eric Townsend - jet@uh.edu - bitnet: jet@UHOU - vox: (713) 749-2120 Skate UNIX or bleed, boyo... (UNIX is a trademark of Bell Laboratories).
ddyer@hubcap.clemson.edu (Doug Dyer) (03/07/91)
>>But the fact is:"If you can shape it in your mind, you will find it in your TT"
Then you are apparently using the wrong head
--
2B|!(2B) => ? Can a perfect being create an object
ddyer@hubcap.clemson.edu Heavier than it can lift?