[comp.windows.ms.programmer] Smalltalk V/Windows tbr Jan 15

daveegan@dhw68k.cts.com (Dave Egan) (01/14/91)

In article <20654@netcom.UUCP> ergo@netcom.UUCP (Isaac Rabinovitch) writes:
>Digitalk will supposedly release the Windows version of Smalltalk V on
>the 15th.  Does anybody consider this a serious alternative to C++ and
>the SDK?  
>
>
>(Hopefully, the 15th's quota of duds will be used up elsewhere...)
>-- 
>
>	ergo@netcom.uucp			Isaac Rabinovitch
>	netcom!ergo@apple.com			Silicon Valley, CA
>	{apple,amdahl,claris}!netcom!ergo
>
>		THIS STATEMENT IS VERIFIABLY, IRREFUTABLY TRUE!


My father-in-law says Smalltalk does have many POSITIVE points for being a
Windows development language.  He has used Smalltalk and Actor and prefers
Smalltalk to a degree.  However, I believe Smalltalk won't generate a 
standalone runtime whereas Actor does.
 
BTW- The Novemeber 1990 issue of AI EXPERT mentions that Digitalk is offering
a 60% discount to students for Smalltalk/V.  Gee I hope that includes this
new version for Windows!!!!
-- 
Dave Egan                                           | Radio: N6XVZ
      uucp: ...{spsd,zardoz,felix}!dhw68k!daveegan  |
  InterNet: daveegan@dhw68k.cts.com                 |

avbalen@ehviea.ine.philips.nl (A.G.M. van Balen) (01/14/91)

In article <20654@netcom.UUCP> ergo@netcom.UUCP (Isaac Rabinovitch) writes:
>Digitalk will supposedly release the Windows version of Smalltalk V on
>the 15th.  Does anybody consider this a serious alternative to C++ and
>the SDK?  
>
>
I cannot speak for C++, having no experience with Zortech, CommonView
or similar, but I would *love* do have the Smalltalk environment.
Would speed up my productivity, doing 'TopPane new' iso
CreateWindow, WindowProc, RegisterClass, ShowWindow....

I heard on BIX that the official shipping date will be jan 28th.
Hopefully, guys already loyal to Digitalk (I have ST/V, ST/V 286 and
ST/V MAC) get a discount...

Auke

scotte@applix.com (Scott Evernden) (01/14/91)

In article <1991Jan14.013737.2108@dhw68k.cts.com> daveegan@dhw68k.cts.com (Dave Egan) writes:
>... However, I believe Smalltalk won't generate a 
>standalone runtime whereas Actor does.

The very first bullet item on the Smalltalk /V Windows blurb I recently
received says: "Generates standalone applications".

Bullet 2 says "No runtime charges for distributing your applications".

This is quite different from that *other* Smalltalk...

-scott

wentzel@hplabsz.HPL.HP.COM (Kevin Wentzel) (01/15/91)

If it is like their Presentation Manager version of Smalltalk V, it will
include a compiler and be able to generate executable images.  Let's hope
so.

KRW1@NS.CC.LEHIGH.EDU (01/15/91)

The latest release date from Digitalk is now Jan. 28.

Yes, it will generate stand-alone executables, but not native code.


------------------------------------------------------------------
Kevin Weiner   Lehigh University Computing Center   (215) 758-3991

objtch@extro.ucc.su.oz.au (Peter Goodall) (01/15/91)

avbalen@ehviea.ine.philips.nl (A.G.M. van Balen) writes:

>In article <20654@netcom.UUCP> ergo@netcom.UUCP (Isaac Rabinovitch) writes:
>>Digitalk will supposedly release the Windows version of Smalltalk V on
>>the 15th.  Does anybody consider this a serious alternative to C++ and
>>the SDK?  

Here is my humble opinion:

If the Presentation Manager version is an indication, smalltalk fixes
a lot of the kludges that appear in window management. Microsoft/(IBM)
have tried to create an object oriented system using C. The horrors of this
are apparent when you subclass a window in C. You do get get an equivalent
to overloading the procedural part of the class, the new classes
event-handling loop gets events before the superclasses. You don't get
any of the superclasses data. The extra bytes dissapear. 

Smalltalk lets you create real subclasses of windows. You also get a
great deal of leverage over C. in /VPM the code:
	ApplicationWindow new open
gives a standard window with default controls and menu bar open, and
ready to go. This seems to take about 40 lines of C, and takes half
a day to explain to experienced C programmers notused to event-driven
programming.

The interface to the rest of the system - called through system DLLs is
reasonably tidy, though it does take detective work to understand
the parameter passing. Digitalk seems to aim its documentation towards
the moderately serious hobbyist, rather that the person building real systems.

A big advantage to developing in Smalltalk is that you don't refer to
pointers and memeory explicitly. Some experienced C, C++ people start to feel
ill when considering memory management and pointer errors under Windows
and PM. Automatic, fast (not reference counting) garbage collection is
one of the greatest aids to productivity. People who say that GC is too slow
have generally tested on baby programs. When you have lots of data flickering
in and out of existence, GC really starts to pay its way. Also the program
will be more likely to run.

When you mention Smalltalk to people who haven't seen it for ten years,
they tend to say it's too slow and dismiss your arguments there and then.
Smalltalk has come far enough so that people say that, especialy for GUI
work, performance is not an issue any more. How I tend to work is:
	Write the whole application in Smalltalk.
	Profile the Application (you may have to write your own
		profiler, or speak nicely to me!)
	Level the profile in Smalltalk.
	Write primitives for the hot spots.

Recently I've been looking at writing primitives in C++, which
seems express the Smalltalk internals fairly naturally. Smalltalk/VPM
and I assume the Windows version has very good access to external code.
So you can use libraries written in other languages.

Could ramble on for weeks here, so better stop.
>>
>>
>I cannot speak for C++, having no experience with Zortech, CommonView
>or similar, but I would *love* do have the Smalltalk environment.
>Would speed up my productivity, doing 'TopPane new' iso
>CreateWindow, WindowProc, RegisterClass, ShowWindow....

>I heard on BIX that the official shipping date will be jan 28th.
>Hopefully, guys already loyal to Digitalk (I have ST/V, ST/V 286 and
>ST/V MAC) get a discount...

 Call digitalk an make a telephone order, you should get a discount.

>Auke

----------------------------
Peter Goodall

Smalltalk Systems Consultant
ObjecTech P/L
162 Burns Bay Rd,
LANE COVE , NSW, AUSTRALIA
objtch@extro.ucc.su.oz.au

objtch@extro.ucc.su.oz.au (Peter Goodall) (01/15/91)

scotte@applix.com (Scott Evernden) writes:

>In article <1991Jan14.013737.2108@dhw68k.cts.com> daveegan@dhw68k.cts.com (Dave Egan) writes:
>>... However, I believe Smalltalk won't generate a 
>>standalone runtime whereas Actor does.

>The very first bullet item on the Smalltalk /V Windows blurb I recently
>received says: "Generates standalone applications".

>Bullet 2 says "No runtime charges for distributing your applications".

>This is quite different from that *other* Smalltalk...

>-scott
 
If Smalltalk V for windows is much like V1.2 for PM we now have the eqivalent
of separately compilable modules. You can actually create DLLs independant
of your Smalltalk image, which you can distribute to other Smalltalkers as
toolkits.


----------------------------
Peter Goodall

Smalltalk Systems Consultant
ObjecTech P/L
162 Burns Bay Rd,
LANE COVE , NSW, AUSTRALIA
objtch@extro.ucc.su.oz.au

rdthomps@vela.acs.oakland.edu (Robert D. Thompson) (01/15/91)

	All of you may want to know that there is another
	OOPS on the block,

		Object/1

	(available for OS/2 PM, and soon Windows 3.0)
	(and it also generates stand-alone executables)

	Many of you have probably heard of it, or read reviews.

	I am beta testing the product right now, it is looking
	pretty good.

	As one who has been developing in Actor and Smalltalk
	for some time now, Object/1 goes a long way to include
	a rich and numerous set of classes.

	Most importantly, Object/1 interfaces to several major
	database systems, including SQL-Server, MDBSIV, and it
	even has its own DLL (TBL) database engine and associated
	classes. It includes a Forms-Painter that automatically
	generates classes from dialog designs.  It also contains
	extensive DDE classes.

	ALL OF THIS IN THE BASE PACKAGE.

	I don't hate Actor or Smalltalk at all, I like them. However,
	I cannot, time after time, buy additional packages to
	get advanced classes (e.g. Goodies, Actor Resource Kit)

	Anyway, I just thought I would let everyone know that they
	should check out ALL OOPS before making a decision.

	ACTOR, SMALLTALK, AND OBJECT/1 ARE ALL GOOD IN MY OPINION.
	What's nice, is that the competition is heating up and thus
	the quality.

	Here stops the ramblin...hope this helps somebody!

	:-{
	^^^ (J.P.)

	P.S.  

	For info. on Object/1 PM or the release date of
	Object/1 for Windows contact,

	Greg Fletcher
	mdbs
	PO Box 248
	Lafayette, Indiana 47902
	(317) 463-2581
	FAX (317) 448-6428

	Tell them I sent ya - it's worth a try.

MUHRTH@tubvm.cs.tu-berlin.de (Thomas Muhr) (01/16/91)

Hello DigiTalk,
do not forget to enclose the Prolog/V interpreter when shipping
ST /V Windows - our already existing applications would like it!
Thanks in advance -
Thomas

fll@utacfd.arl.edu (uta foreign lanquage lab ) (01/16/91)

Digitalk is giving the 60% educational discount for Smalltalk V/Windows.

John Baima
fll@utacfd.uta.edu

ergo@netcom.UUCP (Isaac Rabinovitch) (01/16/91)

In <objtch.663883474@extro> objtch@extro.ucc.su.oz.au (Peter Goodall) writes:

>If Smalltalk V for windows is much like V1.2 for PM we now have the eqivalent
>of separately compilable modules. You can actually create DLLs independant
>of your Smalltalk image, which you can distribute to other Smalltalkers as
>toolkits.

Actually, I think it goes a little beyond that.  Several Windows
applications I've played with (Word for Windows, Crosstalk for
Windows) have the ability to call DLL routines.  Depending on how
kludgy the interface is, you could probably distribute your DLLs to
users of many different Windows programs.
-- 

	ergo@netcom.uucp			Isaac Rabinovitch
	netcom!ergo@apple.com			Silicon Valley, CA
	{apple,amdahl,claris}!netcom!ergo

		THIS STATEMENT IS VERIFIABLY, IRREFUTABLY TRUE!

ergo@netcom.UUCP (Isaac Rabinovitch) (01/16/91)

In <910@ehviea.ine.philips.nl> avbalen@ehviea.ine.philips.nl (A.G.M. van Balen) writes:


>I heard on BIX that the official shipping date will be jan 28th.
>Hopefully, guys already loyal to Digitalk (I have ST/V, ST/V 286 and
>ST/V MAC) get a discount...

I wrote Digitalk about this a month ago.  Never got a direct response,
but a week later I got a brochure offering the Windows version to me
for $250.  Interesting coincidence....   Anyway, this offer expires
sometime in February, so you should probably contact them soonest if
you want to avail yourself of it.
-- 

	ergo@netcom.uucp			Isaac Rabinovitch
	netcom!ergo@apple.com			Silicon Valley, CA
	{apple,amdahl,claris}!netcom!ergo

		THIS STATEMENT IS VERIFIABLY, IRREFUTABLY TRUE!

<ADVI8713@Ryerson.CA> (01/17/91)

Can we get a toolkit to allow New Wave development using Smalltalk V/Windows