daveegan@dhw68k.cts.com (Dave Egan) (01/14/91)
In article <20654@netcom.UUCP> ergo@netcom.UUCP (Isaac Rabinovitch) writes: >Digitalk will supposedly release the Windows version of Smalltalk V on >the 15th. Does anybody consider this a serious alternative to C++ and >the SDK? > > >(Hopefully, the 15th's quota of duds will be used up elsewhere...) >-- > > ergo@netcom.uucp Isaac Rabinovitch > netcom!ergo@apple.com Silicon Valley, CA > {apple,amdahl,claris}!netcom!ergo > > THIS STATEMENT IS VERIFIABLY, IRREFUTABLY TRUE! My father-in-law says Smalltalk does have many POSITIVE points for being a Windows development language. He has used Smalltalk and Actor and prefers Smalltalk to a degree. However, I believe Smalltalk won't generate a standalone runtime whereas Actor does. BTW- The Novemeber 1990 issue of AI EXPERT mentions that Digitalk is offering a 60% discount to students for Smalltalk/V. Gee I hope that includes this new version for Windows!!!! -- Dave Egan | Radio: N6XVZ uucp: ...{spsd,zardoz,felix}!dhw68k!daveegan | InterNet: daveegan@dhw68k.cts.com |
avbalen@ehviea.ine.philips.nl (A.G.M. van Balen) (01/14/91)
In article <20654@netcom.UUCP> ergo@netcom.UUCP (Isaac Rabinovitch) writes: >Digitalk will supposedly release the Windows version of Smalltalk V on >the 15th. Does anybody consider this a serious alternative to C++ and >the SDK? > > I cannot speak for C++, having no experience with Zortech, CommonView or similar, but I would *love* do have the Smalltalk environment. Would speed up my productivity, doing 'TopPane new' iso CreateWindow, WindowProc, RegisterClass, ShowWindow.... I heard on BIX that the official shipping date will be jan 28th. Hopefully, guys already loyal to Digitalk (I have ST/V, ST/V 286 and ST/V MAC) get a discount... Auke
scotte@applix.com (Scott Evernden) (01/14/91)
In article <1991Jan14.013737.2108@dhw68k.cts.com> daveegan@dhw68k.cts.com (Dave Egan) writes: >... However, I believe Smalltalk won't generate a >standalone runtime whereas Actor does. The very first bullet item on the Smalltalk /V Windows blurb I recently received says: "Generates standalone applications". Bullet 2 says "No runtime charges for distributing your applications". This is quite different from that *other* Smalltalk... -scott
wentzel@hplabsz.HPL.HP.COM (Kevin Wentzel) (01/15/91)
If it is like their Presentation Manager version of Smalltalk V, it will include a compiler and be able to generate executable images. Let's hope so.
KRW1@NS.CC.LEHIGH.EDU (01/15/91)
The latest release date from Digitalk is now Jan. 28. Yes, it will generate stand-alone executables, but not native code. ------------------------------------------------------------------ Kevin Weiner Lehigh University Computing Center (215) 758-3991
objtch@extro.ucc.su.oz.au (Peter Goodall) (01/15/91)
avbalen@ehviea.ine.philips.nl (A.G.M. van Balen) writes: >In article <20654@netcom.UUCP> ergo@netcom.UUCP (Isaac Rabinovitch) writes: >>Digitalk will supposedly release the Windows version of Smalltalk V on >>the 15th. Does anybody consider this a serious alternative to C++ and >>the SDK? Here is my humble opinion: If the Presentation Manager version is an indication, smalltalk fixes a lot of the kludges that appear in window management. Microsoft/(IBM) have tried to create an object oriented system using C. The horrors of this are apparent when you subclass a window in C. You do get get an equivalent to overloading the procedural part of the class, the new classes event-handling loop gets events before the superclasses. You don't get any of the superclasses data. The extra bytes dissapear. Smalltalk lets you create real subclasses of windows. You also get a great deal of leverage over C. in /VPM the code: ApplicationWindow new open gives a standard window with default controls and menu bar open, and ready to go. This seems to take about 40 lines of C, and takes half a day to explain to experienced C programmers notused to event-driven programming. The interface to the rest of the system - called through system DLLs is reasonably tidy, though it does take detective work to understand the parameter passing. Digitalk seems to aim its documentation towards the moderately serious hobbyist, rather that the person building real systems. A big advantage to developing in Smalltalk is that you don't refer to pointers and memeory explicitly. Some experienced C, C++ people start to feel ill when considering memory management and pointer errors under Windows and PM. Automatic, fast (not reference counting) garbage collection is one of the greatest aids to productivity. People who say that GC is too slow have generally tested on baby programs. When you have lots of data flickering in and out of existence, GC really starts to pay its way. Also the program will be more likely to run. When you mention Smalltalk to people who haven't seen it for ten years, they tend to say it's too slow and dismiss your arguments there and then. Smalltalk has come far enough so that people say that, especialy for GUI work, performance is not an issue any more. How I tend to work is: Write the whole application in Smalltalk. Profile the Application (you may have to write your own profiler, or speak nicely to me!) Level the profile in Smalltalk. Write primitives for the hot spots. Recently I've been looking at writing primitives in C++, which seems express the Smalltalk internals fairly naturally. Smalltalk/VPM and I assume the Windows version has very good access to external code. So you can use libraries written in other languages. Could ramble on for weeks here, so better stop. >> >> >I cannot speak for C++, having no experience with Zortech, CommonView >or similar, but I would *love* do have the Smalltalk environment. >Would speed up my productivity, doing 'TopPane new' iso >CreateWindow, WindowProc, RegisterClass, ShowWindow.... >I heard on BIX that the official shipping date will be jan 28th. >Hopefully, guys already loyal to Digitalk (I have ST/V, ST/V 286 and >ST/V MAC) get a discount... Call digitalk an make a telephone order, you should get a discount. >Auke ---------------------------- Peter Goodall Smalltalk Systems Consultant ObjecTech P/L 162 Burns Bay Rd, LANE COVE , NSW, AUSTRALIA objtch@extro.ucc.su.oz.au
objtch@extro.ucc.su.oz.au (Peter Goodall) (01/15/91)
scotte@applix.com (Scott Evernden) writes: >In article <1991Jan14.013737.2108@dhw68k.cts.com> daveegan@dhw68k.cts.com (Dave Egan) writes: >>... However, I believe Smalltalk won't generate a >>standalone runtime whereas Actor does. >The very first bullet item on the Smalltalk /V Windows blurb I recently >received says: "Generates standalone applications". >Bullet 2 says "No runtime charges for distributing your applications". >This is quite different from that *other* Smalltalk... >-scott If Smalltalk V for windows is much like V1.2 for PM we now have the eqivalent of separately compilable modules. You can actually create DLLs independant of your Smalltalk image, which you can distribute to other Smalltalkers as toolkits. ---------------------------- Peter Goodall Smalltalk Systems Consultant ObjecTech P/L 162 Burns Bay Rd, LANE COVE , NSW, AUSTRALIA objtch@extro.ucc.su.oz.au
rdthomps@vela.acs.oakland.edu (Robert D. Thompson) (01/15/91)
All of you may want to know that there is another OOPS on the block, Object/1 (available for OS/2 PM, and soon Windows 3.0) (and it also generates stand-alone executables) Many of you have probably heard of it, or read reviews. I am beta testing the product right now, it is looking pretty good. As one who has been developing in Actor and Smalltalk for some time now, Object/1 goes a long way to include a rich and numerous set of classes. Most importantly, Object/1 interfaces to several major database systems, including SQL-Server, MDBSIV, and it even has its own DLL (TBL) database engine and associated classes. It includes a Forms-Painter that automatically generates classes from dialog designs. It also contains extensive DDE classes. ALL OF THIS IN THE BASE PACKAGE. I don't hate Actor or Smalltalk at all, I like them. However, I cannot, time after time, buy additional packages to get advanced classes (e.g. Goodies, Actor Resource Kit) Anyway, I just thought I would let everyone know that they should check out ALL OOPS before making a decision. ACTOR, SMALLTALK, AND OBJECT/1 ARE ALL GOOD IN MY OPINION. What's nice, is that the competition is heating up and thus the quality. Here stops the ramblin...hope this helps somebody! :-{ ^^^ (J.P.) P.S. For info. on Object/1 PM or the release date of Object/1 for Windows contact, Greg Fletcher mdbs PO Box 248 Lafayette, Indiana 47902 (317) 463-2581 FAX (317) 448-6428 Tell them I sent ya - it's worth a try.
MUHRTH@tubvm.cs.tu-berlin.de (Thomas Muhr) (01/16/91)
Hello DigiTalk, do not forget to enclose the Prolog/V interpreter when shipping ST /V Windows - our already existing applications would like it! Thanks in advance - Thomas
fll@utacfd.arl.edu (uta foreign lanquage lab ) (01/16/91)
Digitalk is giving the 60% educational discount for Smalltalk V/Windows. John Baima fll@utacfd.uta.edu
ergo@netcom.UUCP (Isaac Rabinovitch) (01/16/91)
In <objtch.663883474@extro> objtch@extro.ucc.su.oz.au (Peter Goodall) writes: >If Smalltalk V for windows is much like V1.2 for PM we now have the eqivalent >of separately compilable modules. You can actually create DLLs independant >of your Smalltalk image, which you can distribute to other Smalltalkers as >toolkits. Actually, I think it goes a little beyond that. Several Windows applications I've played with (Word for Windows, Crosstalk for Windows) have the ability to call DLL routines. Depending on how kludgy the interface is, you could probably distribute your DLLs to users of many different Windows programs. -- ergo@netcom.uucp Isaac Rabinovitch netcom!ergo@apple.com Silicon Valley, CA {apple,amdahl,claris}!netcom!ergo THIS STATEMENT IS VERIFIABLY, IRREFUTABLY TRUE!
ergo@netcom.UUCP (Isaac Rabinovitch) (01/16/91)
In <910@ehviea.ine.philips.nl> avbalen@ehviea.ine.philips.nl (A.G.M. van Balen) writes: >I heard on BIX that the official shipping date will be jan 28th. >Hopefully, guys already loyal to Digitalk (I have ST/V, ST/V 286 and >ST/V MAC) get a discount... I wrote Digitalk about this a month ago. Never got a direct response, but a week later I got a brochure offering the Windows version to me for $250. Interesting coincidence.... Anyway, this offer expires sometime in February, so you should probably contact them soonest if you want to avail yourself of it. -- ergo@netcom.uucp Isaac Rabinovitch netcom!ergo@apple.com Silicon Valley, CA {apple,amdahl,claris}!netcom!ergo THIS STATEMENT IS VERIFIABLY, IRREFUTABLY TRUE!
<ADVI8713@Ryerson.CA> (01/17/91)
Can we get a toolkit to allow New Wave development using Smalltalk V/Windows