mwizard@eecs.cs.pdx.edu (Craig Nelson) (03/04/91)
>>In article <1845@pdxgate.UUCP> you write: >> >> OK, programmers, I need help, and I need it fast. Win 3.0 just >>crashed on me about 20 minutes ago. I have a 40 page report due in about >>36 hours and it's written in Word for windows. I don't turn in that report >>and I'm screwed. I don't graduate >Sorry, but I couldn't resist flaming you! What a totally ridiculous request >of a programmer. Readers of this group couldn't care less about why your copy >of windows crashes - you should not have posted such a request to this group. >As a programmer I can tell you we have no magical power to immediately track >down and solve all problems. We spend a minimum 4 years in university and >do not emerge as catch-all experts. We learn programming computers in various >languages, not how to play with windows. >This is not to say we may not be able to help you. As a consultant I would >be happy to help you solve your problem. I generally charge $50/hr for >intersting programming work, $80/hr for mindless junk (such as your problem). >And as for getting your report completed and turned in 36 hours from now, all >I can say is I won't feel sorry for you if you don't make it. That may well >be the sympathy you get from your prof for leaving it to the last minute. >Neville Flaming me ? Where the hell are you from, a beached ship-wreck ? I did not demand, nor even suggest a demand from any programmer on the net. Either you feel compelled to suggest you don't have enough 50$/hour clients to put you into the home of your dreams and decided to tell grad students about your abilities (or lack thereof) and the ridiculous charges you pend, or your out of work altogether and have nothing better to do. Doesn't really matter though. I did not mean to offend you, nor even come in contact with you, and had I known a person such as you overwhelming greatness were on the net simply to charge me 80$/hour to say "Gee, I don't know. Have you tried this ?" I would have posted elswhere (and did). The only reason I put it there to being with was because I know large numbers of windows hackers and the like frequent the location, and was short on time to be picky. If you don't feel like helping to solve a problem that another person may be having simply due to your wallet and your ego, then you're in the wrong field. You shouldn't be programming, or charging people to do whatever you might want to call it, you should be an accountant. Make a damn fine one, I bet. On a lighter note, welcome to the minority. Of the 163 replies I got in just over 14 hours, yours was the only one that didn't mean a damn thing. Well, not quite true. It did mean there are still programmers (for lack of a better word) who care more about money than ethics, and let their lack of genitals have reverse effects toward their ego. Everyone else was quite polite, and, although I didn't ask for it from you or them, quite feeling toward my problem. The problem was solved by the combine efforts of many. Many who wrote one fourth as much as you, and were infinitey more helpfull. Funny how they didn't ask for a consultation fee for 5 minutes of typing and a few minutes on the phone. I wonder why that is ? Craig (mwizard@eecs.pdx.edu) (mwizard@jove.cs.pdx.edu) (mwizard@serena.cs.pdx.edu) (mwizard@janus.cs.pdx.edu) (mwizard@spiff.ee.pdx.edu) PS. I bet all the clients (all two of them) you are charging 80$/hour would love to know their work is considered junk. Far as that goes, I bet the others would love to know what a GREAT DEAL their getting.
bcw@rti.rti.org (Bruce Wright) (03/05/91)
In article <1855@pdxgate.UUCP>, mwizard@eecs.cs.pdx.edu (Craig Nelson) writes: > >>In article <1845@pdxgate.UUCP> Craig Nelson writes: > >> > >> OK, programmers, I need help, and I need it fast. Win 3.0 just > >>crashed on me about 20 minutes ago. I have a 40 page report due in about > >>36 hours and it's written in Word for windows. I don't turn in that report > >>and I'm screwed. I don't graduate > > >Sorry, but I couldn't resist flaming you! What a totally ridiculous request > >of a programmer. Readers of this group couldn't care less about why your > >copy of windows crashes - you should not have posted such a request to this > >group. > > Flaming me ? Where the hell are you from, a beached ship-wreck ? I > did not demand, nor even suggest a demand from any programmer on the net. > Either you feel compelled to suggest you don't have enough 50$/hour clients > to put you into the home of your dreams and decided to tell grad students > about your abilities (or lack thereof) and the ridiculous charges you pend, > or your out of work altogether and have nothing better to do. OK, calm down, both of you. Craig's original request was probably not in the best newsgroup (comp.windows.ms.programmer is for programming discussions of Windows, not about setup problems which his apparently was - comp.windows.ms would be more appropriate, though I really don't see it as the big deal that Neville apparently thought it was). However, Craig seems to misunderstand how the business of computer consulting works. Many people outside the business see a rate of $50/hour and immediately think that this is totally outrageous. What they don't see is that out of this, the consultant must pay taxes (if you are employed by someone else, they pay more taxes than just those witheld from your paycheck, and a consultant must pay those taxes in addition to those witheld from an employee's paycheck), fringe benefits (health insurance, for example, which is often included with employment if you are an employee), equipment (most consultants have to have rather more computer equipment than a typical home computer user), technical literature (books and journals), professional organization dues, office space and furniture/equipment, advertizing and promotional expenses, and so forth. Add onto this the fact that the typical consultant is rarely billing a full 2000-hour year (the approximate number of hours worked in a year at 50 weeks of 40 hours each) because of the time required to do promotional and "overhead" work (governmental and internal paperwork such as billing), and you begin to see that this isn't so unreasonable. The rule of thumb is that a consultant actually makes 1/3 to 1/2 of the billing rate, depending on variations in the above equation for individual circumstances - usually closer towards 1/3. This works out to $30-$50k per year for a rate of $50/hour, well within the usual salary range for computer programmers in industry. Obviously there are variations on this theme - for example, a "job shop" such as Manpower might bill the client at $50 and pay some of the overhead (taxes, promotional expenses, etc) out of that, paying the programmer at some reduced rate. No Craig, I don't think $50/hour is ridiculous at all - in many areas this is just about the going rate. In some areas it may be lower and in others higher (depending on the work situation in different cities) and for some specialized skills the market may support a rate several times that (but probably with fewer billable hours per year). Once you find yourself in the real world you will find that things work somewhat differently from the way they look when you are in school (one reason I don't recommend that anyone go into consulting directly from school but get some "real world" experience first). On the other hand, Neville's response was rather obnoxious - there would be much more polite ways of saying the same thing, or just saying nothing. It's not usually good business practice to write or say things that might offend potential clients (whether you are a potential client or not is beside the point; someone who _would_ be a potential client might see the message). Also, in many cases it's good public relations for a consultant to answer simple questions or problems (that might take a few minutes or so) without worrying about a fee; a lot of the point of the consulting game is to make the customer happy enough to come back or to recommend you to other customers. Too much of a nickel-and-dime attitude may mean that you lose the larger contracts which is where the money is. Please let's keep the flames down to a dull roar. Bruce C. Wright