[comp.windows.ms.programmer] Borland C++ 2.0, report #2

oneel@heawk1.rosserv.gsfc.nasa.gov ( Bruce Oneel ) (03/03/91)

So, a second look at BC++ 2.0 a few days after I got it.  I got it to
do windows programming.  Other attributes aren't useful to me now.

But first, the machine (Don't laugh)
ps/2 m25, 8mhz 8086, 20meg 35ms hd, in all fairness to everyone
involved, not the recommended system.

Sidney@borland.com recommended that I put REALMODE in all of my .DEF
files, but this is unsupported as of yet.  The default is PROTMODE and
I'm not running PROTMODE because of my hardware.

I compiled and ran the following supplied borland example windows
programs. 

FFIND.  A c program.  Compiled and ran with no problems.  It finds
files under windows.  Kind of neat.

HDUMP.  A c program.  Compiled ok, ran just fine except for the about
menu selection which crashed my machine.  It looks like LIST in the
Alt-h mode.

MSGWND/TSTAPP.  C programs.  Didn't work, don't remember why.

TODO.  C++ programs.  Didn't compile, ran out of memory but sure did
take a long time.  It finally ran out after about an hour.

DDL*.  C++ programs? (I've deleted them)  Compiled OK, but big red
switch time.  Unknown reason.

WHELLO  C++ program.  Compiled and ran perfectly.

So, so far pretty good.  In general things seem to work and with time
I could probably fix the above problems.  My copy didn't come with
either the help compiler or the Petzold book.  The help compiler is
supposed to be on its way.  Since I upgraded I get a 33% discount for
the Petzold book but I already bought it for $21 at a local discount
book store.  It lists for $30.

In general I'm impressed that with as small a system as I have it
still works with windows programming.  It really isn't as slow as you
would think either...

bruce
--
| Bruce O'Neel              | internet : oneel@heasfs.gsfc.nasa.gov|
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cadsi@ccad.uiowa.edu (CADSI) (03/04/91)

From article <ONEEL.91Mar2115359@heawk1.rosserv.gsfc.nasa.gov>, by oneel@heawk1.rosserv.gsfc.nasa.gov ( Bruce Oneel ):
> So, a second look at BC++ 2.0 a few days after I got it.  I got it to
> do windows programming.  Other attributes aren't useful to me now.
> 
I agree.  Time for a second look, particurlarly since i pseudo-flamed
Borland in my first look.  Second look looks better.  I have converted
a rather large program from C to C++ (I wrote C a lot like C++ in order
to facilitate this early in the design).  Borland C++ has done an excellent
job.  I have to admit once again that I am NOT it awe at this package.
Its just another tool, probably not worth all the articles its getting.
Its a good package, but I still think the SDK is required, that is unless
someone will tell me how to use the Borland Help Compiler.  I haven't
found one.  On the speed of compiles??  I think I was wrong earlier, its
still screams.  It was the windows.h file that slowed things.  I should have
expected MickeySoft to slow Borland.  Such is life.  Parting comments:
Good stuff for $110 (shipping counts) upgrade or $260 for the package for
smart buyers (get the earlier version and upgrade).  Wish list:  PLEASE
MAKE 32 BIT CODE!!!!!  I Can't stand much more of MicroWay C++.

					Tom Hite

oneel@heawk1.rosserv.gsfc.nasa.gov ( Bruce Oneel ) (03/05/91)

Concerning the borland help compiler.  Its on the way according to
Borland on CI$.  It is really microsoft's help compiler which was held
up in legal discussions.  It should be sent in 3-4 weeks to all the
users who got early copies of BC++.

bruce
--
| Bruce O'Neel              | internet : oneel@heasfs.gsfc.nasa.gov|
| Code 664/STX              |     span : lheavx::oneel             |
| NASA/GSFC                 |compuserve: 72737,1315                |
| Greenbelt  MD 20771       |  AT&Tnet : (301)-286-1119            |

ebergman@isis.cs.du.edu (Eric Bergman-Terrell) (03/07/91)

Where is the Help compiler for BC++ 2.0 - it's in the mail.  It is supposed
to be sent to registered users within a month or so.  Negotiations for the
help compiler weren't complete when the package was shipped.

About windows.h slowing things down - use the precompiled headers option!
I haven't bothered yet because my application, which includes windows.h still
doesn't take more that about 20 - 30 seconds to compile & link.

While everyone is saying that you "have to get the SDK to develop applications
in BC++ 2.0" I'm developing applications without it.

SO WHAT's THE DEAL:  What is in the MS Windows SDK that isn't available in
the BC++ 2.0 PACKAGE???????

Books on Windows Programming (yes - but I bought Petzold's for $30.00)

WHAT ELSE???


Terrell

tcs@mailer.jhuapl.edu (Carl Schelin) (03/08/91)

In article <1991Mar7.151918.21996@isis.cs.du.edu>, ebergman@isis.cs.du.edu (Eric Bergman-Terrell) says:
>While everyone is saying that you "have to get the SDK to develop applications
>in BC++ 2.0" I'm developing applications without it.
>
>SO WHAT's THE DEAL:  What is in the MS Windows SDK that isn't available in
>the BC++ 2.0 PACKAGE???????
>
>Books on Windows Programming (yes - but I bought Petzold's for $30.00)
>
>WHAT ELSE???

I have the SDK here. It comes with 6 manuals, 10 720k disks, 6 1.2M
disks and the option to send off for 360k disks.

Manuals: 
  Tools
  Reference - Volume 1
  Reference - Volume 2
  Guide to Programming
  SAA CUA Advanced Interface Design Guide
  Installation and Update Guide

The software takes about 8M on my disk. 1.9M of that is the Windows
Advisor Help file and 767k is the QH Help file.

Tools:
  The Resource Compiler
  SDKPaint
  The Dialog Editor
  The Font Editor
  CodeView for Windows
  Symbolic Debugger
  80386 Debugger
  Spy
  Heap Walker
  Shaker
  Profiler
  Help Compiler

Please, I'm no expert on the SDK. If you need help, subscribe to 
the comp.windows.ms or comp.windows.programming group. If you
E-Mail me, I probably won't be able to help. I'm still learning it myself.

Thanks

Carl Schelin

tom@mims-iris.waterloo.edu (Tom Haapanen) (03/08/91)

ebergman@isis.cs.du.edu (Eric Bergman-Terrell) says:
> SO WHAT's THE DEAL:  What is in the MS Windows SDK that isn't available in
> the BC++ 2.0 PACKAGE???????
> Books on Windows Programming (yes - but I bought Petzold's for $30.00)

All right, so Petzold's book is (one of) the best.  But I still would not
attempt any sort of serious Windows programming without the two-volume
SDK reference and the Guide to Programming.  Petzold does not cover
everything (such as multiple-selection listboxes), and it's certainly no
reference manual.

Of course, all of the above are available separately for Borland C++ owners.

[ \tom haapanen --- university of waterloo --- tom@mims-iris.waterloo.edu ]
[ "i don't even know what street canada is on"               -- al capone ]

cadsi@ccad.uiowa.edu (CADSI) (03/08/91)

From article <1991Mar7.151918.21996@isis.cs.du.edu>, by ebergman@isis.cs.du.edu (Eric Bergman-Terrell):
> 
> Where is the Help compiler for BC++ 2.0 - it's in the mail.  It is supposed
> to be sent to registered users within a month or so.  Negotiations for the
> help compiler weren't complete when the package was shipped.

The checks in the mail.  The product is not yet complete.  How long can
a lawyer take????  I don't like to think about it.

> About windows.h slowing things down - use the precompiled headers option!

Quite right.  I really MUST get used to this idea.

> While everyone is saying that you "have to get the SDK to develop applications
> in BC++ 2.0" I'm developing applications without it.

I've seen many applications, one being the ever so famous WinQVT
program, die miserably when running the Debug version of
the Windows kernel.  Please tell me how to run the Debug version of the 
Windows kernels without the SDK????  Is this important????  Absolutely.
Borland's Debugger does NOT catch all protection faults.  If you know
please post it.  I keep looking for it in Borland's stuff.  I would
just love to sell my SDK, but as yet, I still need it.

> Books on Windows Programming (yes - but I bought Petzold's for $30.00)

This in itself proves that Borland C++ is not the all encompassing Windows
development system.  You gotta buy more, maybe not the SDK, but more anyway.

> SO WHAT's THE DEAL:  What is in the MS Windows SDK that isn't available in
> the BC++ 2.0 PACKAGE???????

So far, Windows Documentation and a Help compiler, and the DEBUG version
of the Windows Kernel.

Don't take offense to all this PLEASE.  I just think these are important
facts that are not listed by Borland when reading their propoganda.  Besides,
its just a business product they want to sell.  I want the MOST for my money.
They generally deliver.

brent@well.sf.ca.us (Brent Southard) (03/11/91)

In article <1991Mar7.151918.21996@isis.cs.du.edu> ebergman@isis.UUCP (Eric Bergman-Terrell) writes:
>
>SO WHAT's THE DEAL:  What is in the MS Windows SDK that isn't available in
>the BC++ 2.0 PACKAGE???????
>
>WHAT ELSE???

Probably the most important feature to a Windows developer: the Debugging
Windows kernel.  I'm constantly amazed at how many shareware and commercial
programs were obviously developed without it.  While I love the Borland
product, I will continue to use the SDK for this feature alone.

brent
-- 
brent southard  (313) 643-1971   |   usenet:  ...!well!brent
ImageTech Corp  (313) 353-7900   |   bix:     brent

"When frog licking is outlawed, only outlaws will lick frogs."

poffen@sj.ate.slb.com (Russ Poffenberger) (03/12/91)

In article <1991Mar7.151918.21996@isis.cs.du.edu> ebergman@isis.UUCP (Eric Bergman-Terrell) writes:
>
>Where is the Help compiler for BC++ 2.0 - it's in the mail.  It is supposed
>to be sent to registered users within a month or so.  Negotiations for the
>help compiler weren't complete when the package was shipped.
>
>About windows.h slowing things down - use the precompiled headers option!
>I haven't bothered yet because my application, which includes windows.h still
>doesn't take more that about 20 - 30 seconds to compile & link.
>
>While everyone is saying that you "have to get the SDK to develop applications
>in BC++ 2.0" I'm developing applications without it.
>
>SO WHAT's THE DEAL:  What is in the MS Windows SDK that isn't available in
>the BC++ 2.0 PACKAGE???????
>
>Books on Windows Programming (yes - but I bought Petzold's for $30.00)
>
>WHAT ELSE???
>

You DO NOT need the SDK to build windows applications with BC++. I finally got
around to installing BC++ on the weekend and I like it. The pre-compiled
headers (-H compiler switch) helps a lot. I also tried TDW (Turbo Debugger for
Windows) and it is pretty neat too. Better than CVW. I have yet to understand
though why even though I use TDW with a secondary monochrome monitor instead
of screen switching (-do switch to TDW), it messes up my primary VGA colors.
I have heard that screen switching on the primary VGA will mess up colors if
don't use a standard driver (I use V7 Fastwrite 800 X 600 X 16), but if I use
the mono monitor for debugging, it seems it shouldn't mess up my VGA. Oh well,
I can live with it.

One note on the installation for users who also have other packages. I also
have Turbo C++ 1.0 Pro. I didn't change my path correctly so that my BC++
directory was before my TC++ directory. This caused problems because it used
the wrong tlink. (BC tlink is 4.0, TC tlink is 3.5). This may cause problems
for othe "pro" packages that are in both TC++ and BC++ as well.

I also had some problems because I also have SDK, and the SDK path was also
before BC++. I got some unexplained errors from rc (another duplicate program
name don't ya know.) that cleared up when I made sure my BC path was before
all other development paths.

I also got a newsletter from Borland. It had some interesting information, and
an example of some classes for windows. It has an application class, a font
class, and a base windows class. I was able to get the example working, and
made a few mods to it. It makes the "main" part of the program only about 10
lines for a simple application that opens two windows and writes a "hello"
message. Should be a good starting point for other classes.

I got mail from Sidney at Borland. The Petzold book coupon will definitely
come with the help compiler.

Pretty good so far. I think we ought to encourage the sharing of ideas about
Windows class libraries. Any comments?

Russ Poffenberger               DOMAIN: poffen@sj.ate.slb.com
Schlumberger Technologies       UUCP:   {uunet,decwrl,amdahl}!sjsca4!poffen
1601 Technology Drive		CIS:	72401,276
San Jose, Ca. 95110             (408)437-5254

ebergman@isis.cs.du.edu (Eric Bergman-Terrell) (03/13/91)

About the Windows Debugging Kernel:  What sorts of bugs does it typically
find?  On what sorts of machines would the bugs actually cause a problem -
or which configurations?


Terrell

cadsi@ccad.uiowa.edu (CADSI) (03/13/91)

From article <1991Mar13.144040.16579@isis.cs.du.edu>, by ebergman@isis.cs.du.edu (Eric Bergman-Terrell):
> 
> About the Windows Debugging Kernel:  What sorts of bugs does it typically
> find?  On what sorts of machines would the bugs actually cause a problem -
> or which configurations?

one of the most common is the DeleteObject call on stock object.  Non
debugging kernel will allow this and die later in unexplainable ways.
The particular machine doesn't really matter unless you are writing code
that will be specific, say to 386 enhanced mode.


|----------------------------------------------------------------------------|
|Tom Hite					|  The views expressed by me |
|Manager, Product development			|  are mine, not necessarily |
|CADSI (Computer Aided Design Software Inc.	|  the views of CADSI.       |
|----------------------------------------------------------------------------|

ebergman@isis.cs.du.edu (Eric Bergman-Terrell) (03/15/91)

I too am impressed with BC++ for Windows.

However on the negative side - the system cannot be used to build applications
that work reliably in real mode, which is unsupported by Borland.

Do they have plans to support real mode in the future?  Is there a way to
make a program gracefully exit if in real mode?  My application crashes
in real mode when I put up a dialog box - makes me wondor how I can put
up a "std or enh mode required" dialog box" if the program is run from
real mode???


Terrell

brent@well.sf.ca.us (Brent Southard) (03/19/91)

In article <1991Mar15.151217.20838@isis.cs.du.edu> ebergman@isis.UUCP (Eric Bergman-Terrell) writes:
>
>Do they have plans to support real mode in the future?  Is there a way to
>make a program gracefully exit if in real mode?  My application crashes
>in real mode when I put up a dialog box - makes me wondor how I can put
>up a "std or enh mode required" dialog box" if the program is run from
>real mode???

You can limit your application to protected mode operation by using the -T
switch of the resource compiler (rc.exe).  Windows will display a message to
the user if he tries to run in real mode.

Brent
-- 
brent southard  (313) 643-1971   |   usenet:  ...!well!brent
ImageTech Corp  (313) 353-7900   |   bix:     brent

"When frog licking is outlawed, only outlaws will lick frogs."

thorp@spudge.UUCP (Don Thorp) (03/19/91)

To mark an application for standard or enhanced mode only, use the /t switch
on the resource compiler.  Windows then takes care of displaying the 
message box for you.

Don