tm11+@andrew.cmu.edu (Thomas James Menner, Jr.) (10/05/90)
minsky@media-lab.MEDIA.MIT.EDU (Marvin Minsky) writes: > I actually had a point to make that illuminates this problem, though > it doesn't solve it. I wasn't telling you what to do. I was saying > something quite different: that maybe you might say to yourself, "Am I > really liking this? What am "I", indeed? When one part of my brain > "likes" something very much, is it possible that there are other parts > of my brain -- maybe much <larger, better, more evolved -- whatever > you think>> that are being suppressed, put out of it, deprived of life > and liberty etc. Ask yourself (as some stoic philosophers did, I > suspect) -- "Who are those little proto-mammalian pleasure centers in > my brain to tell me what I really *should* like. Conversely, I think this line of questioning can be justly directed at what we think is "reasoning." In recent posts you have been claiming that the nebulous, seeming emotive content of our minds (such as aesthetic appreciation) is less desirable than our apparent intelligent behavior, our ability to reason and problem-solve. But certainly it is the case that our reasoning is purposefully channelled in particular directions (perhaps towards particular goals). Whether we are solving a math problem or a problem at work involving interpersonal relationships, our thinking on this subject is directed towards what we consider to be the solution to the problem. Now, in narrowly-defined problem spaces (such as the math problem) the channel into which we direct our reasoning is relatively obvious, i.e. we are simply out to solve a math problem using mathematical rules we have learned (or are learning). But in the case of, say, a problematic interpersonal relationship, the problem space is not narrowly-defined; in fact it's rather nondescript. The solution is not a simple case of applying mathematical rules, and in fact the goal may not be as clarified as solving a math problem. Nevertheless, this is an example of problem about which we would ruminate, and presumably we would be reasoning about this problem in a manner similar to solving any other problem (only the problem is less well-defined, may not be clearly goal-oriented, and may lack any sort of rule guidance). And what is the point of this example? I believe that there is necessarily an arational content to the less well-defined problem -- and not because the example I gave is one of interpersonal relationships. Rather, I believe the rule- and goal-generation for many (if not most, if not *all*) nebulous problems is based in part on arational content, that is "reasoning" not based on any kind of intelligent, rational derivation. For example, what drives Dr. Minsky's belief in the desirability of intelligent reasoning over emotive aesthetic judements? Well, he may argue that his belief is rationally derived from... from what? I'm sure there are fundamental beliefs (axioms?) he holds that drive his reasoning (e.g. a belief in the supremacy of reasoned belief, such as "scientific truths", vs. emotive beliefs such as "faith") -- but from whence are these "axioms" derived? At some point he's got to rest his laurels on mere value judgements, and at best hope to derive from them a consistent personal system. And it is at this level that I think "reasoning" is arational, as such beliefs can at best "appear" to be true, "seem" to be better substantiated than other beliefs -- but still cannot be better than that. After all, life is not a mathematical system (else it would be subject to Goedel's Incompleteness Theorem; ...who knows? -- maybe it is 8-). So what is the gist of all of this? -- that ratiocination can only be partly removed from the mind, that in truth reasoning is a more wholistic process than what people would like to believe. ************************************************************************** Thomas Menner || ARPA: tm11@andrew.cmu.edu Carnegie-Mellon University || BITNET: tm11%andrew.cmu.edu@cmccvb Pittsburgh, PA || UUCP: psuvax1!andrew.cmu.edu!tm11 ************************************************************************** "When you're swimmin' in the creek/And an eel bites your cheek/ That's a moray!!" -- Fabulous Furry Freak Brothers