gwyn@smoke.brl.mil (Doug Gwyn) (02/08/91)
In article <7496@jhunix.HCF.JHU.EDU> theseus@jhunix.HCF.JHU.EDU (David E Reed) writes: >Where can one find UNIX source code? I am aware that >in the past, UNIX was freely distributed to colleges and universities. >But then AT&T copyrighted it and I have asked several people around here >and no one knows where to find the source. ... Sheesh. Johns Hopkins holds some UNIX source licenses, through 7th Edition UNIX at least, and if you were to talk to somebody COMPETENT there you should be able to find the distribution magtapes etc. If you agree to abide by JHU's licensing constraints, perhaps they will even let you look at the code. UNIX was never "freely" distributed; licensing was always required. The fee was fairly low in the "good old days", but never free. Copyright has nothing to do with it. UNIX source code is protected primarily under "trade secret" provisions, and the reason for licensing was to have legal recourse to keep recipients from losing control over who got access to the code.
bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein) (02/09/91)
>UNIX was never "freely" distributed; licensing was always required. >The fee was fairly low in the "good old days", but never free. V6, $60, full source, 9-track magtape. Included the tape and a printed copy of the manual. Heck, I can't get free software that cheap anymore. Heck heck, yer lucky if you can buy a book about some free software package for that much these days... -- -Barry Shein Software Tool & Die | bzs@world.std.com | uunet!world!bzs Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 617-739-0202 | Login: 617-739-WRLD
n8743196@unicorn.cc.wwu.edu (Jeff Wandling) (02/10/91)
bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein) writes: >>UNIX was never "freely" distributed; licensing was always required. >>The fee was fairly low in the "good old days", but never free. >V6, $60, full source, 9-track magtape. >Included the tape and a printed copy of the manual. Heck, I can't get >free software that cheap anymore. Heck heck, yer lucky if you can buy >a book about some free software package for that much these days... >-- > -Barry Shein >Software Tool & Die | bzs@world.std.com | uunet!world!bzs >Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 617-739-0202 | Login: 617-739-WRLD What would it take to get a copy of the source as just described? -- jeff wandling | western washington university | inet: jeff@arthur.cs.wwu.edu cs ugrad | bellingham, wa 98225 USA | n8743196@unicorn.cc.wwu.edu
bhoughto@pima.intel.com (Blair P. Houghton) (02/10/91)
In article <1991Feb9.202455.29275@unicorn.cc.wwu.edu> n8743196@unicorn.cc.wwu.edu (Jeff Wandling) writes: >bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein) writes: >>V6, $60, full source, 9-track magtape. > >What would it take to get a copy of the source as just described? First, you get a PDP-7, then... --Blair "I know where they's one..."
bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein) (02/10/91)
>>>V6, $60, full source, 9-track magtape. >> >>What would it take to get a copy of the source as just described? > >First, you get a PDP-7, then... Oh c'mon, V6 ran on a PDP-11. It even required the "later" models (11/34 and above), although there was a hacked version which ran fine on non-MMU PDP-11's (we ran that on a PDP11/10 and later the LSI-11.) I guess that was Mel Ferantz's "Mini-Unix", swapped all of user memory on every context switch and did pseudo-pipes via disk files (tho they looked the same to the user.) And we thought it was the best thing since sliced bread! -- -Barry Shein Software Tool & Die | bzs@world.std.com | uunet!world!bzs Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 617-739-0202 | Login: 617-739-WRLD
guy@auspex.auspex.com (Guy Harris) (02/11/91)
>What would it take to get a copy of the source as just described?
1) a PDP-11, if you actually want to *run* it.
2) perhaps some amount of time on the phone to AT&T's (or USL's?)
licensing arm, 1) explaining what V6 is to them and 2) finding out if
they still license it (which they may not).
3) finding somebody who has a V6 tape, if AT&T no longer has one....
I don't know how much Minix source costs, but if you basically just want
to look at the innards of an OS, that might be a better way to go. Some
parts of the V6 innards still remain in many modern UNIX systems, so it
may not be a complete waste (Minix differs internally from most existing
UNIX systems; as I remember, it's more message-based). Minix is, I
think, more V7-flavored in its programmer's interface, so it's quite a
bit closer to modern UNIXes in that regard than is V6.jim@segue.segue.com (Jim Balter) (02/11/91)
In article <BZS.91Feb8110144@world.std.com> bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein) writes: >V6, $60, full source, 9-track magtape. It cost Rand Corporation $20,000.
bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein) (02/11/91)
From: guy@auspex.auspex.com (Guy Harris) >>Oh c'mon, V6 ran on a PDP-11. It even required the "later" models >>(11/34 and above), > >Above, numerically speaking, I assume. :-) (I.e., it ran on the 11/40, >which came out before the 11/34 even though it had a higher number.) As >you indirectly note, it mainly required an MMU. Guy scolds me only because he gave me my first copy of Unix back in (1976?) So he has this kind of seniority hangup (:-) :-)) [Bell had sent it to us on 9 track tape and we needed it on an RK05, and we both worked for harvard, so it was all legit, we paid our $60!] -- -Barry Shein Software Tool & Die | bzs@world.std.com | uunet!world!bzs Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 617-739-0202 | Login: 617-739-WRLD
tensmekl@infonode.ingr.com (Kermit Tensmeyer) (02/13/91)
In article <1991Feb11.221134.10074@robobar.co.uk> ronald@robobar.co.uk (Ronald S H Khoo) writes: >guy@auspex.auspex.com (Guy Harris) writes: > >> 2) perhaps some amount of time on the phone to AT&T's (or USL's?) >> licensing arm, 1) explaining what V6 is to them and 2) finding out if >> they still license it (which they may not). > >They don't. And yes, they do know what V6 is. I tried to get a local >university library to get a copy of Lions, he referred us to AT&T who >had bought it, and they said (paraphrased): > There is a company called "Whitesmiths Ltd" that distributed a Unix V6 look a like with source. They also sold a C complier with source as well. -- Kermit Tensmeyer | Intergraph Corporation UUCP: ...uunet!ingr!tensmekl | One Madison Industrial Park INTERNET: tensmekl@ingr.com | Mail Stop LR23A2 AT&T: (205)730-8127 | Huntsville, AL 35807-4201
jbm@eos.arc.nasa.gov (Jeffrey Mulligan) (02/13/91)
ronald@robobar.co.uk (Ronald S H Khoo) writes: >So, for many people, the only way of getting V6 is to drag out that >10th generation ripped off photocopy of Lions (you know who you are :-) >and type the lot in :-) And of course that still leaves the sticky issue of all of the programs from sections 1 and 8. -- Jeff Mulligan (jbm@eos.arc.nasa.gov) NASA/Ames Research Ctr., Mail Stop 262-2, Moffett Field CA, 94035 (415) 604-3745
gill@boris.mscs.mu.edu (Vijay Gill) (02/13/91)
I am also looking for some Unix (tm) source code. I looked around, read
magazines, read comp.os.minix etc. and today in Dr. Dobbs Journal, read
about a port of BSD 4.3 (tahoe) to the 386. This is supposed to be free
from AT&T code, thus if you pass the Berkeley Licence conditions, you can
get the entire source code, including Kernel code. You must keep the
Berekeley notices intact. The article in question is in Dr. Dobbs, Jan '91.
Also, Prentice-Hall sells Andrew S. Tanenbaum's Minix V 1.5.10 for $169.
This includes complete source code and gcc has been hacked to run on it.
It is supposed to be comletely V7 compatible. It is also "free" and updates
are regularly posted on comp.os.minix.
The 386BSD unix seems to be a good idea. Anyone in the know, please
update with more specific details, and if any mistakes have been made, please
correct.
cheers
-dicky gill (Violator)
-gill@boris.mscs.mu.educy5@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu (Conway Yee) (02/14/91)
In article <1991Feb11.221134.10074@robobar.co.uk> ronald@robobar.co.uk (Ronald S H Khoo) writes: >guy@auspex.auspex.com (Guy Harris) writes: > >> 2) perhaps some amount of time on the phone to AT&T's (or USL's?) >> licensing arm, 1) explaining what V6 is to them and 2) finding out if >> they still license it (which they may not). > >They don't. And yes, they do know what V6 is. I tried to get a local >university library to get a copy of Lions, he referred us to AT&T who >had bought it, and they said (paraphrased): I can't believe that a library would allow someone to purchase their only copy of a reference book. Isn't there a code of ethics which prevents something like this? Surely there is a library out there with a copy. Would the Library of Congress in Washington DC have copies? I have to admit that I have looked in several university libraries with absolutely no success. Conway Yee, N2JWQ yee@ming.mipg.upenn.edu (preferred) 231 S. Melville St. cy5@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu (forwarded to above) Philadelphia, Pa 19139 yee@bnlx26.nsls.bnl.gov (rarely checked) (215) 386-1312
goudreau@larrybud.rtp.dg.com (Bob Goudreau) (02/15/91)
In article <6191@segue.segue.com>, jim@segue.segue.com (Jim Balter) writes: > In article <BZS.91Feb8110144@world.std.com> bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein) writes: > >V6, $60, full source, 9-track magtape. > > It cost Rand Corporation $20,000. Yes, so what? Barry was talking about the cost to educational institutions, which was extremely low at the time. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Bob Goudreau +1 919 248 6231 Data General Corporation goudreau@dg-rtp.dg.com 62 Alexander Drive ...!mcnc!rti!xyzzy!goudreau Research Triangle Park, NC 27709, USA
meissner@osf.org (Michael Meissner) (02/18/91)
In article <1991Feb13.185300.28927@cunixf.cc.columbia.edu> cy5@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu (Conway Yee) writes: | >They don't. And yes, they do know what V6 is. I tried to get a local | >university library to get a copy of Lions, he referred us to AT&T who | >had bought it, and they said (paraphrased): | | I can't believe that a library would allow someone to purchase their only | copy of a reference book. Isn't there a code of ethics which prevents | something like this? Surely there is a library out there with a copy. | Would the Library of Congress in Washington DC have copies? If they [Library of Congress] do, they would be bound legally by the same constraints anybody else is. Mainly, because the book contained the source code to V6 [a trade secret held by AT&T], you were required to have a valid V6 license to obtain the book. The reasoning is the same as for other restricted works, such as atomic bomb plans. -- Michael Meissner email: meissner@osf.org phone: 617-621-8861 Open Software Foundation, 11 Cambridge Center, Cambridge, MA, 02142 Considering the flames and intolerance, shouldn't USENET be spelled ABUSENET?
bhoughto@hopi.intel.com (Blair P. Houghton) (02/19/91)
Note: except that it discusses peripherally the source of the source of unix internals, this has nothing to do with UNIX(TM). Group-charter purists please hit 'n' and save yourselves the trouble. There's nothing you can tell me about appropriateness of postings that I haven't already dismissed as illogic and hypocrisy, anyway. "Trust me, I know what I'm doing." (Sledge Hammer; every episode.) In article <MEISSNER.91Feb17165413@curley.osf.org> meissner@osf.org (Michael Meissner) writes: >If they [Library of Congress] do, they would be bound legally by the >same constraints anybody else is. Mainly, because the book contained >the source code to V6 [a trade secret held by AT&T], you were required >to have a valid V6 license to obtain the book. The reasoning is the >same as for other restricted works, such as atomic bomb plans. Atomic bomb plans are kept secret under DoD security classifications. Non-DISCO industrial security has nothing to do with the government aside from laws that prosecute industrial spies. But then, AT&T could probably get SysIII classified, if they asked nicely enough :-). If AT&T had copyrighted the V6 code, then anyone could copy and distribute it, after paying a reasonable royalty, and anyone with a legally made and transferred copy could pass that one copy around to everyone on the planet. The same is true if AT&T had patented the code. The purpose of copyrights and patents is to promote *disclosure*: the government protects the individual's right to profit from his intellectual property in return for having the information disseminated freely (if not "for free") to the general public. If there were no copyright or patent systems, then science would necessarily be a matter of developing all things from first principals (or joining the right industrial cartel :-( ). Now, if Lions had printed the V6 code without license from AT&T (not necessarily a possession-and-use license, which is one of the unfortunate debacles of the history of commercial software, but truly a copying license, which allows them to copyright the book that contains the code), then they're a valid target for any manner of legal action. Whether the Library of Congress is required to sequester their copies of bootlegged material I do not know. From what I've seen, if AT&T was forced to "buy-up" all copies of the book, then it's a fair bet Lions had a license to copy it, and then the Library of Congress is required by law to obtain one and provide that version to the public, forever. (Congressmen are, after all, in the public, but Joe Voter is permitted to take a look.) If AT&T bought that copy back, as well, and it's a copyrighted work of Lions', then somebody has likely violated the law. (Patents and copyrights are not retractible. They may be rescinded, but that's a recission of the protections, not the disclosure requirements, except of course on parts not yet disclosed). --Blair "Guess who almost joined up at the Patent office...I may yet seek a JD..." P.S. In the US of A it is legal to patent and license (often for exhorbitant fees) inventions that, when freely distributed, save countless lives. Most other nations are not hampered by this sort of antisocial capitalism. They require companies to patent safety-inventions, and to grant *free* licenses to anyone who wishes to use or produce them. Germany is one of them. So, when Werner von Engineerschaft, the Director of Whateverkraft at Mercedes-Benz, grins grandfatherly at the guy off-camera and bleats, "veef nefer enforced de patent," about MB's energy-absorbing-body-design techniques, you can take smoldering comfort in the knowledge that he's telling a big, profitable half-truth. I usually just shout, "because it's BLEEDING ILLEGAL for you to DO SO, you DISSEMBLING WHORE!" at the TV...