pmartin@uceng.UC.EDU (Paul Martin) (03/13/91)
I am sure that the following post will bring out religious fervor by
a few fanatics, however I am prepared to don my asbestos suit.
Disclaimer: I am not the net police, just a system manager who has been
burned.
I am a Unix system administrator here at the University of Cincinnati.
I have just recently discovered a band of computer hackers/pirates that
have been using the Internet to pirate commercial software. There were
more than twenty individuals involved. In talking to many of those involved,
there seems to be a common thread, IRC or Inter Relay Chat. These people
told me that they were passing the passwords through IRC as well as meeting
other hackers. I believe that IRC has potential to do some good, however
I believe that it attracts those with little to do with their time and those
immature people who use IRC as a big teenage party line. We have removed
IRC because of the problems that I described above. I urge all administrators
who are interested in preventing unauthorized use of their system and who
have IRC installed, to re-evauluate their desision to keep IRC. To illustrate
the point of IRC being used by those with nothing better to do with their
time I have enclosed a copy of a message posted to alt.irc which describes
a plan to use the internet for fantasy role playing games:
Xref: ucunx1.san.uc.edu alt.irc:126 rec.games.frp:1361 rec.games.mud:576
Path: ucunx1.san.uc.edu!ucunix.san.uc.edu!tut.cis.ohio-state.edu!ucbvax!decwrl!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!jarthur!nntp-server.caltech.edu!kimf
From: kimf@nntp-server.caltech.edu (K. Dorian Flowers)
Newsgroups: alt.irc,rec.games.frp,rec.games.mud
Subject: IRC role-playing games network
Message-ID: <1991Mar9.023832.28600@nntp-server.caltech.edu>
Date: 9 Mar 91 02:38:32 GMT
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena
Lines: 66
Introducing ........
****** IFN *****
Internet relay chat (irc) Fantasy role-playing (frp)game Network!
(Yes, the ultimate acronym nightmare has finally arrived.)
>From some obscure desire to combine our love of role-playing games and
our wish to be in charge of something, Jason Gabler
(jygabler@ucdavis.edu) and I are attempting to create an network of IRC
servers devoted more-or-less to role-playing games.
On this network, you will be able to play role-playing games of any
genre consistent with the format of Internet Relay Chat, give and
receive hints or suggestions on playing in or running a campaign, trade
stories, etc. We're hoping to get busy enough so that we'll have
people on all the time, so that anyone hankering to drop out of reality
for a while can find some willing partners.
To get more people using our network at any given time, we are trying
to accomplish two things: 1) get more servers connected to our network,
and 2) convince a few suck...er, I mean game masters to run campaigns
with regularly-scheduled sessions on our network.
By attaching more servers to our network, we make our network available
to a greater number of net.people who, having nothing better to do with
their time, will inevitably find their way to our network and start
playing role-playing games. We only have a few servers up right now,
two of which are in California so ANY extension to our network is going
to be a BIG improvement.
If you have the urge to become one of those big-headed IRC server
operators, your machine runs Unix and you have the resources, then
contact Jason Gabler (jygabler@ucdavis.edu) to see where to get the IRC
server source, how to get it running and then which machines you should
have it connect to in order to become part of our little network.
Jason Gabler has taken it upon itself to maintain the network and to
deal with all matters having to do with Internet Relay Chat, so if you
have questions involving IRC, such as how to get your hands on the IRC
client and make it run, how you use the IRC client, what's the nearest
server in our network that you can access using your client, etc., bug
him. :)
I get the fun part: coordinating all the role-playing games that we
want to have running on our network. I am hereby putting out a call to
all potential game masters who have nothing better to do to come run a
campaign on our network! Just send mail to me, at
kimf@tybalt.caltech.edu, telling me who you are, how people can reach
you, a confirmation that you have at least one complete adventure ready
to run and a description of it, and what times you can play. I'll work
all the responses that I get into a list and post it for you.
SO!!! If you're interested in becoming a server operator, a game
master, or you just are a potential player who wants to receive updates
on the status of our network, contact us!
jygabler@ucdavis.edu (Jason Gabler, Network Coordinator & UCDavis IFN Operator)
kimf@tybalt.caltech.edu (Kim Flowers, Gaming Coordinator & Caltech IFN Operator)
We can send you additional information, help you set up a campaign,
etc. Don't miss out...contact us now!
--
+-----------------[Paul Martin @ Engineering College OCC, UC]-----------------+
| Internet: pmartin@uceng.uc.edu | "Yes I am serious, |
| Dumb: ...uceng!pmartin | and don't call me Shirley" |
+-----------------------------------------------------------------------------+jdarcy@zelig.encore.com (Jeff d'Arcy) (03/14/91)
pmartin@uceng.UC.EDU (Paul Martin): > I have just recently discovered a band of computer hackers/pirates that > have been using the Internet to pirate commercial software. ...and now for the news. I suspect that I know which group you're dealing with; they're fairly well-known and will be dealt with shortly when enough evidence against them has been gathered. > there seems to be a common thread, IRC or Inter Relay Chat. These people > told me that they were passing the passwords through IRC as well as meeting > other hackers. I believe that IRC has potential to do some good, however > I believe that it attracts those with little to do with their time and those > immature people who use IRC as a big teenage party line. So? That's hardly a crime. > I urge all administrators > who are interested in preventing unauthorized use of their system and who > have IRC installed, to re-evauluate their desision to keep IRC. Whoa, there! What kind of anal-retentive BS is this? Are you really trying to blame the medium for the messages it carries? If so, you might as well shut down the Internet, because it has been used to perpetrate crimes since long before IRC came along. While you're at it, why don't we shut down the phone system because drug dealers talk to their clients on the phone? The mail system will be next, because we all know that various illegal items are routinely shipped that way. Oh, I almost forgot: do you really think there are no messages regarding illegal activities on the system you administer? Think I'm getting carried away? I'm only trying to illustrate where your approach would take us, and it's not even much of a stretch. Of *course* some hackers use IRC, but THAT USE HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THEIR HACKING. They just happen to hang out there, and while they're talking they exchange passwords and such along with the daily news about their term papers and non-existent love lives. We live in an age of electronic communication (I shouldn't have to tell you that, but you seem ignorant of the fact) and IRC is one of the "street corners" the local hoodlums hang out on. There's no more benefit to banning IRC than to banning street corners. Your action is punishing an innocent population for the misdeeds of a few, which will only convince that population of your ignorance and lack of concern. Once they recognize their qualities in you, an adversarial relationship between you and your users is likely to develop, and your security problems will only multiply. Hmmm. I guess you might think of that as job security. Nice trick. Jeff d'Arcy, Generic Software Engineer - jdarcy@encore.com The problem with maintaining an open mind is all the crap people throw into it
napo@vipunen.hut.fi (Hannu Napari) (03/14/91)
In article <7748@uceng.UC.EDU> pmartin@uceng.UC.EDU (Paul Martin) writes: >We have removed >IRC because of the problems that I described above. I urge all administrators >who are interested in preventing unauthorized use of their system and who >have IRC installed, to re-evauluate their desision to keep IRC. To illustrate >the point of IRC being used by those with nothing better to do with their >time I have enclosed a copy of a message posted to alt.irc which describes >a plan to use the internet for fantasy role playing games: On this basis you should remove talk, smtp, nntp... -- Napo $ Today I am / a small blue thing / Made of china / made of glass (leon) $ I am cool and smooth and curious / I never blink / I am turning $ in your hand / Turning in your hand / small blue thing $
pmartin@uceng.UC.EDU (Paul Martin) (03/14/91)
In article <NAPO.91Mar13202006@vipunen.hut.fi> napo@vipunen.hut.fi (Hannu Napari) writes: >In article <7748@uceng.UC.EDU> pmartin@uceng.UC.EDU (Paul Martin) writes: >>We have removed >>IRC because of the problems that I described above. I urge all administrators > >On this basis you should remove talk, smtp, nntp... > Sorry but IRC appears to be SOLELY used for entertainment. This is a poor example of how to spend the students and taxpayers money. -- +-----------------[Paul Martin @ Engineering College OCC, UC]-----------------+ | Internet: pmartin@uceng.uc.edu | "Yes I am serious, | | Dumb: ...uceng!pmartin | and don't call me Shirley" | +-----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
jdarcy@zelig.encore.com (Jeff d'Arcy) (03/14/91)
pmartin@uceng.UC.EDU (Paul Martin) writes: > Sorry but IRC appears to be SOLELY used for entertainment. Maybe that's the only use *you've* seen. Unless you can read Finnish and Kanji, you could never be sure how it's being used, and I assure you that it has legitimate uses. > This is a > poor example of how to spend the students and taxpayers money. Ahhh, another self-referential article. Jeff d'Arcy, Generic Software Engineer - jdarcy@encore.com The problem with maintaining an open mind is all the crap people throw into it
meggers@mothra.nts.uci.edu (Mark Eggers) (03/14/91)
pmartin@uceng.UC.EDU (Paul Martin) writes: >Sorry but IRC appears to be SOLELY used for entertainment. This is a >poor example of how to spend the students and taxpayers money. I just had two requests for a multiparty talk facility. One was from the Biology department, and the other was from the campus newpaper. Both are interested in keeping track of a conference interaction, and both do not want to take notes / hold meetings. The only thing that is scaring them away is that it takes a moderately knowledgeable Unix person to install and maintain. Personally I think phone conferences are much more productive, but recording sessions might be very useful. /mde/
emv@ox.com (Ed Vielmetti) (03/14/91)
In article <7753@uceng.UC.EDU> pmartin@uceng.UC.EDU (Paul Martin) writes:
Sorry but IRC appears to be SOLELY used for entertainment. This is a
poor example of how to spend the students and taxpayers money.
irc was used in the early days of the gulf war for real-time worldwide
discussion of what was happening in europe and the middle east. seems
to me I recall a mention of it in the Wall Street Journal even.
from what I can tell the bulk of discussion wouldn't be terribly
interesting to me right now, but who can say?
Given the absence of an internet-blessed real-time multiparty tcp/ip
based discussion protocol, I think that irc is as reasonable an
approach as any. protocol development didn't require any taxpayers
money to fund DOE or DARPA grants. I've heard of some innovative
applications being built on top of it. Cost is minimum -- student time
is free, a few extra IRC bits doesn't saturate most links, and if it
gets really bad I'm sure we'd see protocol work done to minimize link
loading.
if you don't want to run it locally that's one thing, you can
rationalize that on any ground which you see fit. but I wouldn't call
it worthless.
--
Msen Edward Vielmetti
/|--- moderator, comp.archives
emv@msen.comtchrist@convex.COM (Tom Christiansen) (03/14/91)
From the keyboard of pmartin@uceng.UC.EDU (Paul Martin): :Sorry but IRC appears to be SOLELY used for entertainment. This is a :poor example of how to spend the students and taxpayers money. So what? Anything that gets them into computers more is a good thing. Don't pre-judge what is and is not going to have good long-term side effects. That said, it does sound frivolous, but unless there's a cycle or net or terminal crunch, I see no reason to take it away. --tom
jik@athena.mit.edu (Jonathan I. Kamens) (03/14/91)
In article <7753@uceng.UC.EDU>, pmartin@uceng.UC.EDU (Paul Martin) writes: |> Sorry but IRC appears to be SOLELY used for entertainment. This is a |> poor example of how to spend the students and taxpayers money. During Desert Storm there Israelis on IRC during many of the bomb attacks, giving eye-witness reports of what was going on (trying to censor themselves for fear of giving away important information, for the most part). Furthermore, people all over the world were reporting news in real-time; for much of the time, it was possible to get a compilation of all the important facts from all the major news sources by logging into IRC. I don't consider that "entertainment," I consider it an integral part of the "electronic community" for which I think we should be striving. -- Jonathan Kamens USnail: MIT Project Athena 11 Ashford Terrace jik@Athena.MIT.EDU Allston, MA 02134 Office: 617-253-8085 Home: 617-782-0710
overby@plains.NoDak.edu (Glen Overby) (03/14/91)
In article <7753@uceng.UC.EDU> pmartin@uceng.UC.EDU (Paul Martin) writes: >Sorry but IRC appears to be SOLELY used for entertainment. This is a >poor example of how to spend the students and taxpayers money. Doesn't a good majority of Usenet News fall into the same category? Not only is it a questionable expense of money, but time (well, time is money ;-) But it's something that we all enjoy, or we wouldn't be doing it. -- Glen Overby <overby@plains.nodak.edu> uunet!plains!overby (UUCP) overby@plains (Bitnet)
s900387@minyos.xx.rmit.oz.au (Craig Macbride) (03/14/91)
pmartin@uceng.UC.EDU (Paul Martin) writes: >[ ... ] To illustrate >the point of IRC being used by those with nothing better to do with their >time I have enclosed a copy of a message posted to alt.irc which describes >a plan to use the internet for fantasy role playing games: I suppose you'd prefer these people to do drugs or beat up old ladies, so long as they don't use any CPU cyles on your machine to do it? What exactly is bad about all these people using their minds to further games design and communications? Are you just trying to make sure that those who use computers aren't allowed to have fun while doing so? -- _--_|\ Craig Macbride <uni: s900387@minyos.xx.rmit.oz.au> / \ <work: craig@bacchus.esa.oz.au> \_.--.*/ VUT (RMIT) is responsible for the equipment, not the opinions! v
sblair@upurbmw.dell.com (Steve Blair) (03/14/91)
In article <NAPO.91Mar13202006@vipunen.hut.fi>, napo@vipunen.hut.fi (Hannu Napari) writes: |> In article <7748@uceng.UC.EDU> pmartin@uceng.UC.EDU (Paul Martin) |> On this basis you should remove talk, smtp, nntp... Fine, and while *you're* removing them, why not just take your site off of the Internet. You've obviously no clue what's going on here. NSFnert, FARRnet, and others are very *CLEAR* in their guidelines -- Steve Blair DELL UNIX DIVISION sblair@upurbmw.dell.com ================================================================
pmartin@uceng.UC.EDU (Paul Martin) (03/14/91)
In my orignal post, I describe a sitiuation that we have here at UC, dealing with hackers, and pirates. Since that time I have received numerous messages telling me that I just dont know what IRC is about and IRC is used for anything from education to detailing scud attacks in Israel. I have also gotten replies telling me that game playing is good because it introduces people to computers. I have also received messages from people telling not to blame the medium for the crime (ie. the phone system for a drug deal or IRC for hacking) I wish to make the following point: I AM NOT TELLING SYSTEM ADMINISTRATORS HOW TO RUN THEIR SYSTEMS! I am only presenting my point of view about how IRC is used. Now that I have that out of the way I wish to present the following facts: 1) IRC is a meeting place for hackers and pirates. If you doubt this statement, logon to IRC and check out the different channels. I was able to meet as many as five individuals willing to trade software with me in as little as two minutes. 2) People DO give out their passwords to people they meet on IRC. The most visible supporter of IRC was herself guilty at this University for giving out her password to more than twenty people. 3) IRC uses a great deal of bandwitdh. One of the replies I got back mentioned the as much as 3% of the total NSFNET backbone was used by IRC packets last month. 4) 99.9% of the information presented on IRC is used for entertainment. Again, if you don't believe this, logon to IRC and see for yourself. 5) Much of the network that IRC runs on is paid for by taxpayers. 6) IRC does not compare with Usenet News, Talk or E-Mail. Much of news is dedicated to the spread of knowledge (IE. this group). Talk and E-Mail normally used by individuals who know each other. Also these mediums are generally used for communication. I am sure that people will continue to hack and pirate long after IRC is gone from the earth, however it appears to me from my expeience in using IRC, that IRC makes the problem worse. One person mentioned to me that I was "barking up two trees" because I saw two different problems with IRC. This is true. IRC is both used for entertainment and illegitimate activites. But rather than take my word for it, please use IRC for a while so you can draw your own conculsions. I also know that there are many things worse than IRC on the Internet (like the Internet Crack Exchange, a pirate BBS on the internet), and I know that there a many worse problems in the world, however this is a problem which has simple and easy to implement solution. I do not have a personal vendeta against IRC. I appluade the free flow of information that the Internet is desgined to be used for. I just want to see the Internet being used in the fashion that it was intended to be used. -- +-----------------[Paul Martin @ Engineering College OCC, UC]-----------------+ | Internet: pmartin@uceng.uc.edu | "Yes I am serious, | | Dumb: ...uceng!pmartin | and don't call me Shirley" | +-----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
waah@milton.u.washington.edu (scott machaffie) (03/15/91)
pmartin@uceng.UC.EDU (Paul Martin) writes: >In article <NAPO.91Mar13202006@vipunen.hut.fi> napo@vipunen.hut.fi (Hannu Napari) writes: >Sorry but IRC appears to be SOLELY used for entertainment. This is a >poor example of how to spend the students and taxpayers money. We first found out about the San Francisco earthquake over IRC. Also, some of my friends found out that their friends down there were okay through IRC.
Kimmo.Suominen@lut.fi (Kimmo Suominen) (03/15/91)
>>>>> On 13 Mar 91 22:21:31 GMT, pmartin@uceng.UC.EDU (Paul Martin) said:
Paul> Sorry but IRC appears to be SOLELY used for entertainment. This is a
Paul> poor example of how to spend the students and taxpayers money.
Many are the times I've connected to IRC to get a helpful hint on my
tasks. The knowledge out there is huge, and most of the time you'll
find people willing to help you! Perhaps you haven't been on IRC
enough to see all this.
--
Kim / Internet: Kimmo.Suominen@lut.fi
"That's what I think." / Bitnet: KIM@FINFILESjohn@mintaka.mlb.semi.harris.com (John M. Blasik) (03/15/91)
pmartin@uceng.UC.EDU (Paul Martin) writes: | | Sorry but IRC appears to be SOLELY used for entertainment. This is a | poor example of how to spend the students and taxpayers money. | PISS OFF!
eoshaugh@nmsu.edu (Erik Oshaughnessy) (03/15/91)
From the keyboard of sblair@upurbmw.dell.com (Steve Blair): >In article napo@vipunen.hut.fi (Hannu Napari) writes: >|> In article <7748@uceng.UC.EDU> pmartin@uceng.UC.EDU (Paul Martin) >|> On this basis you should remove talk, smtp, nntp... > >Fine, and while *you're* removing them, why not just take >your site off of the Internet. You've obviously no clue >what's going on here. Wow! Someone forgot to check the sarcasm bit before they flew off the handle and posted. Sigh. _____________________________________________________________________________ ~ | Erik O'Shaughnessy |\/\/\/| ~ | Small Systems | | ~ | New Mexico State University | * | ~ ()========= | Las Cruces, NM USA | (x)(x) L_l===== | eoshaugh@dante.nmsu.edu C _) ==== |------------------------------------ | ,___| ==== |"Do not follow the NULL pointer, | / | for that path leads to chaos, /____\ Die Bart! Die! | and madness." - me | \ | -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
jik@athena.mit.edu (Jonathan I. Kamens) (03/15/91)
In article <7763@uceng.UC.EDU>, pmartin@uceng.UC.EDU (Paul Martin) writes: |> 1) IRC is a meeting place for hackers and pirates. You just don't seem to be understanding what people are telling you. Using this logic, I could go on a crusade to ban pinball arcades, retail software stores, retail computer stores (got to get rid of those radio shack computer outlets -- *hackers* and *pirates* meet there!), BBSs, the Usenet, and the "pizza joints" in many towns. Sure, hackers and pirates talk on IRC. But they talk in a lot of other places as well. Blaming IRC because there are hackers and pirates on it is utterly absurd. But, then again, this seems to be a part of the growing trend in this country to blame inanimate things for problems rather than blaming people. A kid shoots himself because a parent leaves a loaded gun in an unlocked drawer? Blame the gun, not the parent! Hackers and pirates use IRC to talk about doing illegal things? Blame IRC, not the hackers and pirates! |> 2) People DO give out their passwords to people they meet on IRC. Um, so what? What does IRC have to do with this? It is our policy that people should not give out their passwords (and I assume it is yours too), but our policy doesn't say, "People *especially* shouldn't give out their passwords on IRC!" Once again, you're blaming the medium, not the people who are committing wrong-doings. Now, before you say, "But shutting down IRC will make it more difficult for pirates to pirate, or for people to give out their passwords!" let me remind you that many people believe that IRC does many good things. You appear to be willing to ignore all of those good things because of the bad things you see about IRC. Most other people in this discussion are not. Perhaps you should listen to what they're saying for a minute? After doing that, if you still disagree, then fine, shut down IRC at your site. But stop asking other people to do it, because we won't, because we don't see things the same way you do. |> 3) IRC uses a great deal of bandwitdh. See my previous paragraph. There's nothing wrong with letting a useful service use bandwidth. |> 4) 99.9% of the information presented on IRC is used for entertainment. And 99.9% of statistics are made up. |> 5) Much of the network that IRC runs on is paid for by taxpayers. And it provides services that are far more "educational" than some other uses of the net. Using this argument, I suspect you could shut down the majority of network traffic today, depending on how strictly you're going to judge things (and of how much you want to stifle the growth of the "electronic community" I mentioned in a previous message). |> 6) IRC does not compare with Usenet News, Talk or E-Mail. |> Much of news is dedicated to the spread of knowledge (IE. this group). |> Talk and E-Mail normally used by individuals who know each other. |> Also these mediums are generally used for communication. This is absurd. People have given you numerous examples of things for which IRC has been used that can most assuredly be considered "the spread of knowledge". Its use during the war and its using during the earthquake are just two examples. |> I am sure that people will continue to hack and pirate long after IRC is |> gone from the earth, however it appears to me from my expeience in using |> IRC, that IRC makes the problem worse. Computer networks in general make the problem worse. That does not mean that we should disband the Internet in order to make it harder for hackers and pirates to hack and pirate. That's cutting off your nose to spite your face. |> I do not have a personal vendeta against IRC. Um, my impression is that, in fact, you do. -- Jonathan Kamens USnail: MIT Project Athena 11 Ashford Terrace jik@Athena.MIT.EDU Allston, MA 02134 Office: 617-253-8085 Home: 617-782-0710
s900387@minyos.xx.rmit.oz.au (Craig Macbride) (03/16/91)
In comp.unix.admin you write: >Now that I have that out of the way I wish to present the following facts: >1) IRC is a meeting place for hackers and pirates. > If you doubt this statement, logon to IRC and check out the different > channels. I was able to meet as many as five individuals willing to > trade software with me in as little as two minutes. I have used IRC quite a number of times and never seen any conversation at all about pirating software. Sure, if you try to meet people like that, you may well find them. At the same time, if I walked into my local computer shop I could probably meet just as many, just as quickly. >2) People DO give out their passwords to people they meet on IRC. > The most visible supporter of IRC was herself guilty at this University > for giving out her password to more than twenty people. So because one person at your University is a dill, everyone else suffers?! >But rather than take my word for it, please use IRC for a >while so you can draw your own conculsions. Yep, and having used it on and off for many months, I can safely say that I have seen plenty of entertainment and absolutely no illegal activities. If some of the people who use pirate bulletin boards are using IRC, they are not doing so in as obvious a way as elsewhere. Taking away IRC will not impact upon their activitied at all, but will only affect the activities of those who are just ordinary users of the facility. -- _--_|\ Craig Macbride <uni: s900387@minyos.xx.rmit.oz.au> / \ <work: craig@bacchus.esa.oz.au> \_.--.*/ VUT (RMIT) is responsible for the equipment, not the opinions! v
gl8f@astsun.astro.Virginia.EDU (Greg Lindahl) (03/16/91)
In article <1991Mar14.212436.10526@athena.mit.edu> jik@athena.mit.edu (Jonathan I. Kamens) writes: > This is absurd. People have given you numerous examples of things for which >IRC has been used that can most assuredly be considered "the spread of >knowledge". Its use during the war and its using during the earthquake are >just two examples. I might note in passing that IRC can be used in educational ways, but also writing IRC itself has been quite an education for the people involved. Ever written a fully-distributed mostly-fault-tolerant database system in an Internetwork enviornment? Loads of fun, I assure you.
afoiani@hobbes.nmsu.edu (Anthony "Tkil" Foiani) (03/16/91)
In response to pmartin's points 3-5: > 3) IRC uses a great deal of bandwitdh. > One of the replies I got back mentioned the as much as 3% of the > total NSFNET backbone was used by IRC packets last month. > > 4) 99.9% of the information presented on IRC is used for entertainment. > Again, if you don't believe this, logon to IRC and see for yourself. > > 5) Much of the network that IRC runs on is paid for by taxpayers. One question: Does your campus have a student union building? Think about it. Tony -- Tony Foiani a.k.a. Tkil (afoiani@nmsu.edu) or (mcsajf@nmsuvm1.bitnet) Supporting: Unix / DOS / VMS / Macintosh / "What's this?" "But, although we make records for a hard world, we make records for a hard world that you can get by in, and that you can have fun in, that you can get off on." - Andrew Eldritch of The Sisters Of Mercy
napo@vipunen.hut.fi (Hannu Napari) (03/16/91)
In article <7763@uceng.UC.EDU> pmartin@uceng.UC.EDU (Paul Martin) writes: >1) IRC is a meeting place for hackers and pirates. > If you doubt this statement, logon to IRC and check out the different > channels. I was able to meet as many as five individuals willing to > trade software with me in as little as two minutes. I wonder how many you could have met using talk. Again, this is the fault of the people, not of the irc software. >2) People DO give out their passwords to people they meet on IRC. > The most visible supporter of IRC was herself guilty at this University > for giving out her password to more than twenty people. So what? I could spread my password using "conventional" means. And once again, this is the fault of the people, not of the software. Following your logic one should forbid everything. >3) IRC uses a great deal of bandwitdh. > One of the replies I got back mentioned the as much as 3% of the > total NSFNET backbone was used by IRC packets last month. The byte count of IRC-packets was 1.4% of the total. Most of the band- width is taken by ftp-packets. I don't see you denying ftp-access. Imagine how many illegal copies of commercial software is being transferred right now... >6) IRC does not compare with Usenet News, Talk or E-Mail. > Much of news is dedicated to the spread of knowledge (IE. this group). > Talk and E-Mail normally used by individuals who know each other. > Also these mediums are generally used for communication. So we don't communicate when we're using IRC... Interesting fact. And what is wrong in meeting other people, some of which are complete strangers to oneself. It seems to me that you consider this somewhat abnormal... >But rather than take my word for it, please use IRC for a >while so you can draw your own conculsions. I also know that there are >many things worse than IRC on the Internet (like the Internet Crack Exchange, >a pirate BBS on the internet), and I know that there a many worse problems >in the world, however this is a problem which has simple and easy to >implement solution. I've used IRC since the very beginning. And I have drawn my conclusions about your "facts"... >I appluade the free flow of information that the Internet is desgined to >be used for. I just want to see the Internet being used in the fashion >that it was intended to be used. Free flow of information? Your ideas are far from that... Internet is not a static and stable thing, it evolves all the time. -- Napo $ Today I am / a small blue thing / Made of china / made of glass (leon) $ I am cool and smooth and curious / I never blink / I am turning $ in your hand / Turning in your hand / small blue thing $
osvaldo@sos.com (Osvaldo Gold) (03/16/91)
What is IRC? Is this on the internet somewhere?
jc@minya.UUCP (John Chambers) (03/16/91)
pmartin@uceng.UC.EDU (Paul Martin) writes: | | Sorry but IRC appears to be SOLELY used for entertainment. This is a | poor example of how to spend ... taxpayers money. Sort of like the Gulf war, eh? -- All opinions Copyright (c) 1991 by John Chambers. Inquire for licensing at: Home: 1-617-484-6393 Work: 1-508-486-5475 Uucp: ...!{bu.edu,harvard.edu,ima.com,eddie.mit.edu,ora.com}!minya!jc
src@scuzzy.in-berlin.de (Heiko Blume) (03/17/91)
pmartin@uceng.UC.EDU (Paul Martin) writes: >In article <NAPO.91Mar13202006@vipunen.hut.fi> napo@vipunen.hut.fi (Hannu Napari) writes: >>In article <7748@uceng.UC.EDU> pmartin@uceng.UC.EDU (Paul Martin) writes: >>>We have removed >>>IRC because of the problems that I described above. I urge all administrators >> >>On this basis you should remove talk, smtp, nntp... >> >Sorry but IRC appears to be SOLELY used for entertainment. This is a >poor example of how to spend the students and taxpayers money. sure it appears like that to you, because you probably won't get invited to the private channels with this attitude. btw, do they entertain themselved on channel +nippon ? can you read/understand what the finnish people talk about? what the hell do you know? since, as you say, the students pay for it (too) they at least can use it for entertainment (too). seriously: at least here in germany IRC is used for network management. you know, it's kinda hard to phone with 4 admins at once, and IRC is certainly much cheaper than phoning people N miles away. -- Heiko Blume <-+-> src@scuzzy.in-berlin.de <-+-> (+49 30) 691 88 93 public UNIX source archive [HST V.42bis]: scuzzy Any ACU,f 38400 6919520 gin:--gin: nuucp sword: nuucp uucp scuzzy!/src/README /your/home
src@scuzzy.in-berlin.de (Heiko Blume) (03/17/91)
pmartin@uceng.UC.EDU (Paul Martin) writes: >1) IRC is a meeting place for hackers and pirates. you know what? if some pirate would login into to your machine and download some commercial software i'd blame *you* that he was able to download it (unless the pirate has bin/root login in the first place, then i'd probably shoot you) if you are the admin). why? cause you didn't chmod -r the commercial binaries. if your users give away their logins i'd blame you too for not making them aware of the legal stuff that's involved. if you become the victim of something like the internet worm, *that's* something you can't get blamed for. -- Heiko Blume <-+-> src@scuzzy.in-berlin.de <-+-> (+49 30) 691 88 93 public UNIX source archive [HST V.42bis]: scuzzy Any ACU,f 38400 6919520 gin:--gin: nuucp sword: nuucp uucp scuzzy!/src/README /your/home
scott@prism.gatech.EDU (Scott Holt) (03/18/91)
There are a number of pluses and minuses concerning IRC - however, the so-called security problems it causes are problems it has in common with any communications medium. I don't think you will find any medium which has not been used for some criminal purpose at some time in its existance. The problems I have with IRC have nothing to do with security, but the resources it takes. It has been mentioned that IRC is not a heavy load on resources - to that my reply is b------t. It may be a minor drain on network facilities, but it is a serious drain on other resources. In particular, its a drain on the number of seats availble for people to do work on the systems that run IRC clients. It has gotten to the point where I can log into our main time-sharing resource at just about any given time of day and find 5-10 of the terminal ports consumed by people using IRC or something very much like it. This goes on at times when people trying to get a connection from our terminal server network get denied access because no ports are available. I hate to think how many workstation seats are used up with this stuff while others are waiting - what are we supposed to do, walk around an look over everyones'shoulders? Ok, so why do we not restrict acces to IRC clients on our system? Well, IRC client source is available from a number of places - in fact, we don't support IRC at all, a user found the source, installed it on his account and made it available to the rest of our users. I have a feeling that if we took it away from that user (which would open a whole new can of worms), it would simply reappear somewhere - etc,etc,etc...The folks who manage our systems have better things to do with their time. I think the only way to keep IRC and similar facilities from becoming more trouble than they are worth is for the folks to manage the relays to take more responsibility. For example, if some site administrators do not want people using IRC, then they should be able to have the relay operators configure the relay to deny access to their sites. Things like this are nice, and I will admit that they have potential value. However, the people who use them and support them have to put their use in perspective. At an institute such as ours, there are priorities that become painfully obvious when resources are limited. -Scott Disclaimer: these opinions are mine and may not represent those of my employer. -- This is my signature. There are many like it, but this one is mine. Scott Holt Internet: scott@prism.gatech.edu Georgia Tech UUCP: ..!gatech!prism!scott Office of Information Technology, Technical Services
stealth@caen.engin.umich.edu (Mike Pelletier) (03/18/91)
In article <1991Mar13.232217.8994@convex.com> tchrist@convex.COM (Tom Christiansen) writes: >From the keyboard of pmartin@uceng.UC.EDU (Paul Martin): >:Sorry but IRC appears to be SOLELY used for entertainment. This is a >:poor example of how to spend the students and taxpayers money. > >So what? Anything that gets them into computers more is a good thing. >Don't pre-judge what is and is not going to have good long-term side effects. > >That said, it does sound frivolous, but unless there's a cycle or net >or terminal crunch, I see no reason to take it away. Two things -- the appearances of IRC may be decieving, since there can be dozens of conversations going on without the benefit of a channel, or which may be taking place in private or hidden channels. So a group of researchers collaborating on optics for a remote sensing camera might escape your notice. Additionally, the type of informal, real-time interaction that can take place in IRC is breaking down the international fences that we typically have in everyday life. In IRC, an Israeli, an Italian, a Frenchman, a Finn, etc.. all look the same on the screen.
brnstnd@kramden.acf.nyu.edu (Dan Bernstein) (03/18/91)
In article <1991Mar13.232433.3162@athena.mit.edu> jik@athena.mit.edu (Jonathan I. Kamens) writes: > During Desert Storm there Israelis on IRC during many of the bomb attacks, [ etc. ] > I don't consider that "entertainment," I consider it an integral part of the > "electronic community" for which I think we should be striving. You can toss around ``considerations'' all you want, but it is generally illegal to do anything on the academic networks that isn't for research or instruction. People can argue that IRC contributes to research and instruction, but it *does* carry a very large amount of traffic that would be exceedingly difficult to classify that way. Such use of academic networks is almost certainly illegal. I'm not saying that IRC should be demolished just because it appears to contribute so strongly to illegal behavior: any communications medium will suffer some amount of abuse. However, a sysadmin paid to maintain computers for instruction and research is perfectly justified in cutting off the entire IRC system rather than trying to weed out the valid use from the chaff. On USENET it's at least practical to carry only comp.* and news.*; IRC has no comparable ability. You may argue that it's not your responsibility to worry about illegal behavior. You just shouldn't criticize those who do. ---Dan
gsh7w@astsun8.astro.Virginia.EDU (Greg Hennessy) (03/19/91)
Paul Martin: #>I just want to see the Internet being used in the fashion #>that it was intended to be used. uunet!bria!mike: #Something about this comment just doesn't sit right with me. #Can you say ``fascism''? Why is is fascist to want a tax supported entity being used in the manner that it was intended to be used? -- -Greg Hennessy, University of Virginia USPS Mail: Astronomy Department, Charlottesville, VA 22903-2475 USA Internet: gsh7w@virginia.edu UUCP: ...!uunet!virginia!gsh7w
jon@turing.acs.virginia.edu (Jon Gefaell) (03/20/91)
In article <24519@hydra.gatech.EDU> scott@prism.gatech.EDU (Scott Holt) writes: >There are a number of pluses and minuses concerning IRC - however, >the so-called security problems it causes are problems it has in >common with any communications medium. I don't think you will find >any medium which has not been used for some criminal purpose at some >time in its existance. > >The problems I have with IRC have nothing to do with security, but >the resources it takes. It has been mentioned that IRC is not a >heavy load on resources - to that my reply is b------t. It may be >a minor drain on network facilities, but it is a serious drain on other >resources. This sounds like a site specific concern. I urge to to deal with the matter within your domain in any manner you wish. I also urge you not to make your problems ours. >others are waiting - what are we supposed to do, walk around an look >over everyones'shoulders? Get more seats, or design, implement, and enforce local policies to eliminate IRC in your domain. >I think the only way to keep IRC and similar facilities from becoming >more trouble than they are worth is for the folks to manage the relays >to take more responsibility. For example, if some site administrators >do not want people using IRC, then they should be able to have the >relay operators configure the relay to deny access to their sites. You might consider taking action to restrict use of port 6667, or other means. -- ____ \ / Jon Gefaell (jon@Turing.acs.Virginia.EDU) \/ The pleasure of satisfying a savage instinct, undomesticated by the ego, is uncomparably much more intense than one of satisfying a tamed instinct. The reason is becoming the enemy that prevents us from a lot of possibilities of pleasure. S. Freud
jon@turing.acs.virginia.edu (Jon Gefaell) (03/20/91)
In article <5077:Mar1805:03:4491@kramden.acf.nyu.edu> brnstnd@kramden.acf.nyu.edu (Dan Bernstein) writes: >contribute so strongly to illegal behavior: any communications medium >will suffer some amount of abuse. However, a sysadmin paid to maintain >computers for instruction and research is perfectly justified in cutting >off the entire IRC system rather than trying to weed out the valid use >from the chaff. On USENET it's at least practical to carry only comp.* >and news.*; IRC has no comparable ability. Design, implement, and enforce local site standards. It's YOUR CONCERN, and it's YOUR JOB. > >You may argue that it's not your responsibility to worry about illegal >behavior. You just shouldn't criticize those who do. You are the one calling it illegal behaviour. Those of us with a clue know better. > >---Dan -- ____ \ / Jon Gefaell (jon@Turing.acs.Virginia.EDU) \/ The pleasure of satisfying a savage instinct, undomesticated by the ego, is uncomparably much more intense than one of satisfying a tamed instinct. The reason is becoming the enemy that prevents us from a lot of possibilities of pleasure. S. Freud
jon@turing.acs.virginia.edu (Jon Gefaell) (03/20/91)
In article <1991Mar18.174346.26755@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU> gsh7w@astsun8.astro.Virginia.EDU (Greg Hennessy) writes: > >Paul Martin: >#>I just want to see the Internet being used in the fashion >#>that it was intended to be used. > >uunet!bria!mike: >#Something about this comment just doesn't sit right with me. >#Can you say ``fascism''? > >Why is is fascist to want a tax supported entity being used in the >manner that it was intended to be used? It is facist when ONE person, or a SMALL group of people attempt to control everyone else, and make THIER will the Only True Way. > >-- >-Greg Hennessy, University of Virginia > USPS Mail: Astronomy Department, Charlottesville, VA 22903-2475 USA > Internet: gsh7w@virginia.edu > UUCP: ...!uunet!virginia!gsh7w Did you know that we (here at U.Va.) have two IRC servers and about 30 local users of IRC? Did you know that one is in your department? -- ____ \ / Jon Gefaell (jon@Turing.acs.Virginia.EDU) \/ The pleasure of satisfying a savage instinct, undomesticated by the ego, is uncomparably much more intense than one of satisfying a tamed instinct. The reason is becoming the enemy that prevents us from a lot of possibilities of pleasure. S. Freud
gary@sci34hub.sci.com (Gary Heston) (03/22/91)
In article <5077:Mar1805:03:4491@kramden.acf.nyu.edu> brnstnd@kramden.acf.nyu.edu (Dan Bernstein) writes: >You can toss around ``considerations'' all you want, but it is generally >illegal to do anything on the academic networks that isn't for research >Such use of academic networks is almost certainly illegal. >contribute so strongly to illegal behavior: any communications medium >You may argue that it's not your responsibility to worry about illegal >behavior. You just shouldn't criticize those who do. I suggest you go learn the difference between "illegal" and "improper". Using some of the academic networks for things like newsfeeds would be outside the guidelines established for those networks, and therefore improper. It's not, however, a violation of any law, and describing it as "illegal" is incorrect and makes you look sensationalist rather than having a legitimate argument. Did you post your article over an acedemic network? If so, why? It's not research, and therefore, by your own characterizations, it was illegal. Go turn yourself in to the local internet police office for booking.... While you're there, you can learn correct terminology. "Illegal" behavior is that which directly violates LAW, not school rules (or NSF guidelines). Sending a note to someone across country that you'll drop by for a visit next week isn't illegal. Giving several people the password to you account isn't illegal. FTPing a GIF image of Garfield to someone isn't illegal. They might be in violation of school policies or NSF guidelines (or stupid), but they are not crimes and your repeated characterization of them as such is incorrect. -- Gary Heston System Mismanager and technoflunky uunet!sci34hub!gary or My opinions, not theirs. SCI Systems, Inc. gary@sci34hub.sci.com I support drug testing. I believe every public official should be given a shot of sodium pentathol and ask "Which laws have you broken this week?".
brnstnd@kramden.acf.nyu.edu (Dan Bernstein) (03/22/91)
In article <1991Mar19.173953.20702@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU> jon@turing.acs.virginia.edu (Jon Gefaell) writes: > >You may argue that it's not your responsibility to worry about illegal > >behavior. You just shouldn't criticize those who do. > You are the one calling it illegal behaviour. Those of us with a clue know > better. I didn't say that IRC was illegal, only that many of its users appear to (illegally!) send large amounts of data across it that does *not* contribute to instruction or research. Sorry, but whimpers like ``those of us with a clue know better'' don't hold up in court, or with the Department of Education, or with the administrators who pay the bills. I don't see IRC taking up noticeable resources here, so I'm not worried about it. I just think that it's rather idiotic to criticize someone who does worry about it. ---Dan
gl8f@astsun.astro.Virginia.EDU (Greg Lindahl) (03/22/91)
In article <17186:Mar2121:29:2691@kramden.acf.nyu.edu> brnstnd@kramden.acf.nyu.edu (Dan Bernstein) writes: >I didn't say that IRC was illegal, only that many of its users appear to >(illegally!) send large amounts of data across it that does *not* >contribute to instruction or research. Dan Bernstein -- judge, jury, and executioner.
terra@sol.north.de (Frank Simon) (03/24/91)
Hello ! In article <17186:Mar2121:29:2691@kramden.acf.nyu.edu> brnstnd@kramden.acf.nyu.edu (Dan Bernstein) writes: >I didn't say that IRC was illegal, only that many of its users appear to >(illegally!) send large amounts of data across it that does *not* >contribute to instruction or research. Do U really think, that all sites in the world wide Internet community R only Research Institutes or Universities ? a) There R a lot of companies and of nd private persons in this global village. b) To talk with other ppl is a part of agreement between nations. I think this is a kind of instruction too. Terra PS. Don't flame. I know that my english ist bad. :-) -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ! Nick: Terra, Real: Frank Simon, Tel: 0441/76206, City: Oldenburg, FRG ! ! CHAMNT@doluni1.bitnet, terra@sol.zer, terra@sol.north.de, mbk1:chaos-team ! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
peter@ficc.ferranti.com (Peter da Silva) (04/03/91)
In article <1991Mar21.162220.15612@sci34hub.sci.com> gary@sci34hub.sci.com (Gary Heston) writes: #pragma nitpicking(on) > FTPing a GIF image of Garfield to someone isn't illegal. Technically it is a copyright violation, and therefore illegal. This falls into the "eating peanuts in church" department, though. #pragma nitpicking(off) -- Peter da Silva. `-_-' peter@ferranti.com +1 713 274 5180. 'U` "Have you hugged your wolf today?"
brnstnd@kramden.acf.nyu.edu (Dan Bernstein) (04/05/91)
In article <507@sol.north.de> terra@sol.north.de (Frank Simon) writes: > In article <17186:Mar2121:29:2691@kramden.acf.nyu.edu> brnstnd@kramden.acf.nyu.edu (Dan Bernstein) writes: > >I didn't say that IRC was illegal, only that many of its users appear to > >(illegally!) send large amounts of data across it that does *not* > >contribute to instruction or research. > Do U really think, that all sites in the world wide Internet community R > only Research Institutes or Universities ? No. Only a large number of them, and apparently the greatest part of IRC. I do not know of any legal problem with, e.g., IRC use over NYSERNet, or by corporations within their own nets. In those cases there are only a few guidelines which nobody pays much attention to. However, universities receive huge amounts of money from the Department of Education. The money must, in general, contribute to instruction or research. It's the law. If any of that money helps pay for (e.g.) NYU-NET then NYU-NET cannot legally carry other kinds of traffic. Period. ---Dan
brnstnd@kramden.acf.nyu.edu (Dan Bernstein) (04/05/91)
In article <1991Mar21.162220.15612@sci34hub.sci.com> gary@sci34hub.sci.com (Gary Heston) writes: > I suggest you go learn the difference between "illegal" and "improper". Sure thing. Sending commercial packets over NSFNET, for example, is improper. Sending commercial packets over NYU-NET is (as far as I know) illegal. > Using some of the academic networks for things like newsfeeds would be > outside the guidelines established for those networks, and therefore > improper. Does NYU-NET have guidelines? I sure don't remember seeing any. But NYU gets a lot of money from the Department of Education, I believe some of that money helps pay for NYU-NET, so any use of NYU-NET must *by law* contribute to instruction or research. > It's not, however, a violation of any law, and describing > it as "illegal" is incorrect and makes you look sensationalist rather > than having a legitimate argument. I wish that were true. > Did you post your article over an acedemic network? If so, why? It's > not research, and therefore, by your own characterizations, it was > illegal. (Note that it's ``instruction and research,'' not just ``research.'') The courts don't blink an eye at administrative use of Education Department money. How do you think NYU---a billion-dollar-a-year, non-profit company---would keep running if it didn't have management? Administration? (Janitors? :-)) I feel confident that a court would accept this argument: my article is directly intended to lessen the amount of traffic, present and future, that might be (illegally, btw) carried by NYU-NET, and hence to contribute to the better use of our network money for instruction and research. Similarly, IRC---as an experiment in networking---can easily be seen as contributing to instruction and research. But what about IRC, the chit-chat line? IRC, where people spend a lot of time exchanging information with no apparent relevance to anything academic? How do you justify such use? > "Illegal" behavior is that which directly violates LAW, not school > rules (or NSF guidelines). 'Zactly. > Sending a note to someone across country > that you'll drop by for a visit next week isn't illegal. Giving > several people the password to you account isn't illegal. FTPing a > GIF image of Garfield to someone isn't illegal. Respectively: Yes, it is, unless that note contributes to instruction and/or research. Yes, it is, unless those people's uses of your account contribute to instruction and research. And yes, it is, copyright law aside, unless the recipient is taking a course in cartooning. ---Dan
jc@minya.UUCP (John Chambers) (04/13/91)
In article <28058:Apr420:20:3991@kramden.acf.nyu.edu>, brnstnd@kramden.acf.nyu.edu (Dan Bernstein) writes: > In article <1991Mar21.162220.15612@sci34hub.sci.com> gary@sci34hub.sci.com (Gary Heston) writes: > > I suggest you go learn the difference between "illegal" and "improper". > > Sure thing. Sending commercial packets over NSFNET, for example, is > improper. Sending commercial packets over NYU-NET is (as far as I know) > illegal. Hey, guys, aren't you missing the most important aspect of any research project? I'm talking of course about the most common phrase in most scientific journals: "Further research is needed". For instance, consider your remarks: > > Using some of the academic networks for things like newsfeeds would be > > outside the guidelines established for those networks, and therefore > > improper. > Does NYU-NET have guidelines? I sure don't remember seeing any. But NYU > gets a lot of money from the Department of Education, I believe some of > that money helps pay for NYU-NET, so any use of NYU-NET must *by law* > contribute to instruction or research. A true researcher would look at this and immediately realize that this is a very good opportunity for further research. It is quite clear that IRC and newsgroups were worthwhile research developments in and of themselves, and furthermore there has been much opportunity for their use to study human-machine interaction and computer-supported distributed discussions. However, the research nature is seriously eroded when people start using them for something of actual value to themselves. At present, there is no way to easily determine which uses are within the guidelines, and people are clearly requesting that Something Be Done About It. So we get to the need for further research. What is clearly needed here is research into software that does content analysis, so that we can correctly classify the various uses according to the rules for the use of a specific network. This is potentially a large area of research, of course, and will need accordingly large sums of money. There are a great many different kinds of usage restrictions that might be imposed by contract or by law on the use of a network, and building network-management software to detect usage which violates the rules would be rather difficult for many of them. But with sufficient funding, and a pool of talented software developers, we should be able to establish a network-monitoring testbed within which we can develop effective content-classification software. Or at least it would be many years and many megabucks before the funding agencies decided to terminate funding. Whaddaya think, guys? Should we apply for some grants? -- All opinions Copyright (c) 1991 by John Chambers. Inquire for licensing at: Home: 1-617-484-6393 Work: 1-508-486-5475 Uucp: ...!{bu.edu,harvard.edu,ima.com,eddie.mit.edu,ora.com}!minya!jc