ccastdd@prism.gatech.EDU (David Preston Dykes) (09/07/90)
Greetings-
I posted a question about Open Desk Top a few weeks back but alas
I got no response from the net. After doing some independent research I
am just about to take the plunge and buy it and enter the i386 unix world.
Before I do I would like do, pose to any of ya'll out there that
are using this product a few more questions (if you can answer them PLEASE
do).
1) Are there any of ya'll that are using it but are disatisfied,
if so why?
2) Being a dirt poor undergrad I cannot possibly afford the
developers kit...so I would like to make do with gcc. I have
many questions on this:
a) Would this include all the libraries etc I need to get down
to programing for my environment including X?
b) I am in sorta a catch 22. Without a c compiler, how the
heck do I compile my c compiler? Does anyone out there have
a compiled version out there they would be so good as to send
me? Could I compile it on some system V AT&T machines I have
access to and use those binaries (it is supposed to be sys v
compatible n'est pas)?
3) Is any one running this on a system as whimppy as a 20MHz
386sx with an mfm drive and 4Mb of memory, if so how slow are
things (esp. X)?
ANY responses to these questions would be GREATLY appreciated.
Thanks in Advance
-Dave
________________________________________________________________________________
r--_____ r---__ r--_____ |"The weather is here,
| \ |_____) | \ | I wish you were beautiful."
L_______/avid |reston L_______/ykes| -Jimmy Buffet
David Preston Dykes -User Assistant|
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Georgia Institute of Technology, Atlanta Georgia, 30332
uucp: ...!{decvax,hplabs,ncar,purdue,rutgers}!gatech!prism!ccastdd
Internet: ccastdd@prism.gatech.edumpd@anomaly.sbs.com (Michael P. Deignan) (09/09/90)
ccastdd@prism.gatech.EDU (David Preston Dykes) writes: > 1) Are there any of ya'll that are using it but are disatisfied, > if so why? Well, I don't own it, and never will, for several reasons. A colleague of mine purchased the package, which gave me the opportunity to see what it was like. First, its an incredible memory PIG. If you don't have 8mb of RAM, don't even think of using XWindows. (And, why buy Open Desktop without X Windows?) When looking at X Windows, I wasn't impressed. In fact, Windows 3.0 for MessyDos looks just as good, has more configurable parameters, and uses TONS less memory! The documentation consists of 2 rather thick manuals, and tons of on-line documentation. This to me is a drawback, since I prefer tons of manuals to wade thru, instead of attempting to access online help (which, from what I saw, required you to run XWindows.) He had to go thru the installation procedure *5* times before he got the system configured correct (and, this guy's been doing UNIX for YEARS, not a few months) each time wading thru the 40+ disks which accompany the software package. Disk space is tremendous, and if you install all of the packages on the system, something in the order of 160mb is required. Also, boot time is incredible with all software packages installed - I've seen my IBM 4381 boot in less time! > 3) Is any one running this on a system as whimppy as a 20MHz > 386sx with an mfm drive and 4Mb of memory, if so how slow are > things (esp. X)? He ran his on a 16mhz 386DX, which is probably as "fast" as a 20mhz SX, but he had 8mb of RAM. Still SLOW. My decision on the product based upon what I've seen (the points above being the "important" issues to me) is that I'm not going to waste my money, until a more streamlined product becomes available. MD -- -- Michael P. Deignan, President -- Small Business Systems, Inc. -- -- Domain: mpd@anomaly.sbs.com -- Box 17220, Esmond, RI 02917 -- -- UUCP: ...uunet!rayssd!anomaly!mpd -- Telebit: +1 401 455 0347 -- -- XENIX Archives: login: xxcp, password: xenix Index: ~/SOFTLIST --
davidsen@sixhub.UUCP (Wm E. Davidsen Jr) (09/13/90)
In article <3024@anomaly.sbs.com> mpd@anomaly.sbs.com (Michael P. Deignan) writes: | First, its an incredible memory PIG. If you don't have 8mb of RAM, don't | even think of using XWindows. (And, why buy Open Desktop without X Windows?) Here's a man who remembers when we could run everything and 16 users in 2MB. I just paid $52/ea for 1MB SIMMs. You need 4MB to run any reasonable UNIX, so you're looking at a hot $200 for the upgrade. And I can say from experience that ISC and Intel UNIX are pigs running X in 4MB, too. We do have one system with 4MB, X, and two users running ODT, so it can be done (big fast disk). | The documentation consists of 2 rather thick manuals, and tons of on-line | documentation. This to me is a drawback, since I prefer tons of manuals | to wade thru, instead of attempting to access online help (which, from | what I saw, required you to run XWindows.) I don't know what you're looking at, the complete set comes to a good size box. And I would never, ever, run a system without online docs again. | | He had to go thru the installation procedure *5* times before he got the | system configured correct (and, this guy's been doing UNIX for YEARS, not | a few months) each time wading thru the 40+ disks which accompany the | software package. And he probably let his experience save him the trouble of looking something up, right? I've put in ODT and Xenix without trouble or a manual, but I always have to look with Ultrix. I've seen it installed by total morons, so it can't be that hard. | | Disk space is tremendous, and if you install all of the packages on the | system, something in the order of 160mb is required. By "all the packages" I assume you mean every package from every vendor, not what somes in the ODT pack. I'm looking at a working copy of the disks as I type, and they are in four boxes. I admit there might be 15 rather than ten disks/box, but still 60*1.2 < 160. With all the packages, big /tmp, and big swap you can fill a 160, but it will install on a 120 with room for a user or two. | Also, boot time is | incredible with all software packages installed - I've seen my IBM 4381 | boot in less time! Here I agree, the boot time can be slow, particularly as it mounts all the NFS partitions and stuff. Still, it's less than a minute, and how often do you do it? I boot monthly because a few things seem to overflow about then, but it doesn't fall down a lot, so you don't do it often in normal use. | | > 3) Is any one running this on a system as whimppy as a 20MHz | > 386sx with an mfm drive and 4Mb of memory, if so how slow are | > things (esp. X)? | | He ran his on a 16mhz 386DX, which is probably as "fast" as a 20mhz SX, | but he had 8mb of RAM. Still SLOW. I run my window manager on a Compaq 20MHz at work, 4MB, and I do it because it's faster than the Sun 3/260 (load average of 7). It's acceptably fast as a single user system, or one "real" user and 2-3 window managers. | | My decision on the product based upon what I've seen (the points above | being the "important" issues to me) is that I'm not going to waste my | money, until a more streamlined product becomes available. I like it because it's so much cheaper than the competition. By the time you add NFS and DOS capability to the others, you get over the cost of ODT. Unlimited user license is a lot higher with ODT, no question about it. And The development set is a bargain if you use the xenix/DOS cross compile and codeview, but pretty pricy otherwise. ODT is a great bargain if you will use most or all of the features. If you don't need ODS, NFS, SP/ip, X, SQL, then it's probably not cost effective. It packs a lot of stuff in a package which goes about $650 street price. And wait until the end of the year to see the pricing on some of the V.4 ports with everything but the kitchen sink bundled... -- bill davidsen - davidsen@sixhub.uucp (uunet!crdgw1!sixhub!davidsen) sysop *IX BBS and Public Access UNIX moderator of comp.binaries.ibm.pc and 80386 mailing list "Stupidity, like virtue, is its own reward" -me
wengland@stephsf.stephsf.com (Bill England) (09/15/90)
In article <13398@hydra.gatech.EDU> ccastdd@prism.gatech.EDU (David Preston Dykes) writes: >Greetings- > 1) Are there any of ya'll that are using it but are disatisfied, > if so why? ODT's great! Support is even pretty good and is definitely very responsive. > [...] > a) Would this include all the libraries etc I need to get down > to programing for my environment including X? X ... you'll have a problem there I'm afraid. The development system for X includes all of the development libs, defs, and imake. So if you don't buy the development package for X then you will have to get the X source and compile it yourself. Also, Ingres libs are in the development kit I believe, as are DOS cross libraries. ( Not that you would really want to use the DOS on a Unix system :-) ) > b) I am in sorta a catch 22. Without a c compiler, how the > heck do I compile my c compiler? Does anyone out there have > a compiled version out there they would be so good as to send > me? Could I compile it on some system V AT&T machines I have > access to and use those binaries (it is supposed to be sys v > compatible n'est pas)? Ever taken a compiler class?? Classic problem. You could even compile it on your schools Vax or Sequent (I'm dreaming arent I?) or even the old PDP-11 (every school has an old PDP-11 somewhere.) and have the output objs generated in 386 instructions. Get the GNU C compiler source and see what the instructions suggest. Anyway you are looking at a long winter project to get a GNU based development system running with X and it probally will not support Ingres development. > > 3) Is any one running this on a system as whimppy as a 20MHz > 386sx with an mfm drive and 4Mb of memory, if so how slow are > things (esp. X)? Yes/No, A DTK Pem2000 20Mhz (it's not an sx though). I do have 8Meg of memory and picked up an fpu which helps in some ingres and X programs (SCO is still releasing X11R3 with R4 due out ... ???). SCO-ODT does support the Video 7 1024i board and they have threatend to upgrade their driver to support 256 colors in the lower res non interlaced modes. Gezz, I really would not get an sx if I could at all avoid it. Also, you are going to need lots of disk space. It is cheaper per unit in hundred megabyte quanties anyway. A SCSI card eliminates headaces caused by overlapping interupts and allows disks and tape drives to be added eaisly. Of course if you are really on a low budget then you might try the $95 Coherent. It is not Unix and only handles the small model intel code but, it could fit your needs as a student. It does not need much disk, does not support streams (no TCP or X11, although they say it is coming.) It does come with Lex, Yacc, and a C compiler. Send mail to Mark Williams Publishing Company and see what they say. > >ANY responses to these questions would be GREATLY appreciated. There is a newsgroup for sco's open desktop. The traffic is light and you may be able to persuade your sysadmin to carry it. It is sco.opendesktop. ( We carry everyting sco here and occasionally some interesting things slip out but, not recently. ) +-------- | Bill England | Stephen Software Systems, Inc., Tacoma Wa. | wengland@stephsf.com +1 206 564 2122 | * * H -> He +24Mev * * * ... Oooo, we're having so much fun making itty bitty suns * * *
perand@admin.kth.se (Per Andersson) (10/02/90)
In article <3024@anomaly.sbs.com> mpd@anomaly.sbs.com (Michael P. Deignan) writes: >First, its an incredible memory PIG. If you don't have 8mb of RAM, don't >even think of using XWindows. (And, why buy Open Desktop without X Windows?) >When looking at X Windows, I wasn't impressed. In fact, Windows 3.0 for >MessyDos looks just as good, has more configurable parameters, and uses >TONS less memory! Oh. Right ! So how do I do networking in Windows 3.0 ? You know, running the application on a real computer instead of the one having a hard time keeping control of all the pixels. And as of now, a megapixel display for a PC with card and software would almost buy me a diskless sparcstation. Which has enough power to run X, has ethernet, and a good display. And X is not the only memory pig, using System V is certainly a way to make memory manufacturers happy. -- Per Andersson (perand@admin.kth.se, perand@stacken.kth.se) Trying a new job at Bofors Electronics, still reading news at the Royal Institute of Technology Time, got the time tick tick tickin' in my head - Joe Jackson