tvf@cci632.UUCP (Tom Frauenhofer) (09/20/90)
I have a 286 system that I want to upgrade to a 386sx. Before I jump in and buy a motherboard is there anything I should look out for? Ideally, I would like to be able to drop the ram from my 286 straight into the 386sx (I know, It might be a little slower, but funding limitations and all that). And which BIOS should I consider? Also, I am planning on running Minix with the 32 bit upgrades on it - has anyone run that beastie on a 386sx? Will I have any problems? (again, aside from speed issues)? Thanks in advance!-- Thomas V. Frauenhofer, WA2YYW ccicpg!cci632!tvf@uunet.uu.net tvf1477@ma.isc.rit.edu "Why don't you try acting? It's much easier." - Laurence Olivier to Dustin Hoffman during filming of "Marathon Man"
tuv@pmafire.UUCP (Mark Tovey) (09/21/90)
In article <40019@cci632.UUCP> tvf@cci632.UUCP (Tom Frauenhofer) writes: >I have a 286 system that I want to upgrade to a 386sx. Before I jump in and >buy a motherboard is there anything I should look out for? Ideally, I would >like to be able to drop the ram from my 286 straight into the 386sx (I know, >It might be a little slower, but funding limitations and all that). And which >BIOS should I consider? > I have a friend who has found a 386sx upgrade kit. Apparently you remove the 286 chip and install a plug in daughter board in place. This board contains the 386 chip, a socket for a coprocessor (you can continue to use the 287 if desired) and any necessary support circuitry. I haven't seen it and I don't know his source so I can't be of much more help other than to tell you that such a thing is available. Probably you can find it somewhere in the Computer Shopper.
davidsen@sixhub.UUCP (Wm E. Davidsen Jr) (09/22/90)
There are some nice motherboards for <$400 which hold up to 8MB and
have the NEAT chipset. That's more important for DOS, but it's nice to
be able to diddle the parameters when you're trying to get stuff
working. I just loaded V.4 on it, I've run ODT. It uses 4MB DRAM and 4MB
SIPPs, both <$50/MB now.
--
bill davidsen - davidsen@sixhub.uucp (uunet!crdgw1!sixhub!davidsen)
sysop *IX BBS and Public Access UNIX
moderator of comp.binaries.ibm.pc and 80386 mailing list
"Stupidity, like virtue, is its own reward" -metuv@pmafire.UUCP (Mark Tovey) (09/25/90)
In article <1990Sep21.144108.1098@pmafire.UUCP> tuv@pmafire.UUCP (Mark Tovey) writes: >In article <40019@cci632.UUCP> tvf@cci632.UUCP (Tom Frauenhofer) writes: >>I have a 286 system that I want to upgrade to a 386sx. Before I jump in and >>buy a motherboard is there anything I should look out for? Ideally, I would >>like to be able to drop the ram from my 286 straight into the 386sx (I know, >>It might be a little slower, but funding limitations and all that). And which >>BIOS should I consider? >> > I have a friend who has found a 386sx upgrade kit. Apparently you >remove the 286 chip and install a plug in daughter board in place. >This board contains the 386 chip, a socket for a coprocessor (you can >continue to use the 287 if desired) and any necessary support >circuitry. > > I haven't seen it and I don't know his source so I can't be of >much more help other than to tell you that such a thing is available. >Probably you can find it somewhere in the Computer Shopper. > > I managed to track my friend's source. He got the information from the August 20 issue of InfoWorld, page 83. The company that manufactures it is: SOTA Technology Inc. 559 Weddell Drive Sunnyvale, CA, 94089 (408) 745-1111 (information) (800) 933-7682 (ordering) It uses a 16MHz chip and comes with 16k of cache memory. Currently it can only use the 387 processor. Later versions will offer 20MHz, 32k of cache, and the ability to use the motherboards 287 coprocessor. The cost is a little steep, it lists for $595.00. This may or may not be cheaper than replacing the motherboard and memory, depending on your configuration. Otherwise it sounds like a good idea.
rcd@ico.isc.com (Dick Dunn) (09/26/90)
tuv@pmafire.UUCP (Mark Tovey) writes about upgrading a 286 AT to 386: [> > is also Tovey] > > I have a friend who has found a 386sx upgrade kit. Apparently you > >remove the 286 chip and install a plug in daughter board in place. > >This board contains the 386 chip, a socket for a coprocessor (you can > >continue to use the 287 if desired) and any necessary support > >circuitry. I tried a couple different flavors of these and returned both. I've looked into others and rejected them all for one reason or another. One thing you've got to watch out for is whether the add-in board will fit the space available. One board would almost fit, except for obstruction by a power- supply connector which came up too high. I tried to raise the daughter- board with a chip carrier; this introduced a noise problem and it wouldn't work. Look at the size and layout of the board, then look at where your 286 sits (paying attention to location of pin 1). You'll need to get the info for the right kind of CPU package (PLCC or PGA). Looking at the SOTA ad, I noticed that they seem to have arranged their PGA board so it won't clear a ZIF socket right! (A ZIF has a lever along one side to apply the pressure to the contacts. This requires that a daughterboard mount the pins to the old processor socket along an edge of the board.) Most clones use PLCC instead of PGA; make sure the vendor of the board offers the right connection. Also, if you're looking at this for a UNIX machine, be *sure* you can return it if it doesn't work for you--and try it out with UNIX right away. Often, add-in boards have only been tried with DOS, and a support call will only get you a "What's a UNIX?" Also, there's the problem of boards which aren't really hardware-compatible; they're "BIOS-level" compatible--no use for UNIX, which doesn't use the BIOS. > I managed to track my friend's source. He got the information from > the August 20 issue of InfoWorld, page 83. The company that > manufactures it is: > SOTA Technology Inc. [details deleted] > It uses a 16MHz chip and comes with 16k of cache memory... >...The cost is a little steep, it lists for $595.00. This may or may not > be cheaper than replacing the motherboard and memory, depending on > your configuration... $595 is definitely steep. You should be able to get a complete SX mother- board for $400 or less; that will leave you $200--with which you can go out and buy 4 Mb of memory. (Well, 1Mx9 80ns SIMMs are almost down to $50; they probably will be by the time this message gets out.:-) Thoughts on relative advantages: The daughterboard has a cache. This will help performance in some areas, *assuming* the cache works right (e.g., doesn't tangle with I/O ports, memory-mapped I/O devices, or DMA). It will let you use existing (bus) memory, which would be good if you've already got a lot. BUT if you've gotten a lot of bus memory, that might have come about because you needed it (:-) for large programs and/or lots of data--in which case the cache is likely to be inadequate. If you're upgrading an old machine, consider that bus speed is probably 8 MHz tops; that's a 125 ns cycle. An access to bus memory takes 3 cycles, or 375 ns. per 16 bits. By comparison, if you replaced the entire motherboard, you'd put normal 80-ns memory on it. Some trickery actually allows the 16-MHz SX motherboards (that's 62.5 ns cycle) to use 80 ns memory without a wait state on every access. Anyway, ignore the details; you should be getting the idea: old slow bus memory plus a cache may lose against faster on- board memory. And if you don't already have a lot of bus memory, memory expansion is cheaper with the new motherboard. -- Dick Dunn rcd@ico.isc.com -or- ico!rcd Boulder, CO (303)449-2870 ...Worst-case analysis must never begin with "No one would ever want..."
kls30@duts.ccc.amdahl.com (Kent L Shephard) (10/04/90)
Upgrades via the "plug in an adapter to the 286" are expensive compared to what a new 386sx motherboard costs. I'm in Sunnyvale and out the door price of a new motherboard w/o ram is about $300.00, the Sota upgrade board is above $500.00. For $400.00 you can get a motherboard and 2MB of ram. (memory is cheap ~$50/MB) If you look in Computer Shopper, PC Week, etc you shoud be able to find a motherboard still for about $300.00. It is not that difficult to swap out a motherboard. Takes a little more time than the upgrade board but is worth it. BTW I upgraded to a 386sx last year from a 8Mhz 8088 with a 286 accelerator board. But what I did was bought a system that was bare bones and just transferred cards. If you do buy a new motherboard you may be able to use your existing memory in your 286 provided it is simms or sipps and the new mother board takes the same type. The speed shouldn't be a problem if the simms/sipps are 100ns or better because a lot of 386sx boards use 100 or 80ns chips. /*************************************************************/ /* */ /* The war on drugs is a joke!!! Why is it that you can't */ /* get a Cuban cigar in the U.S. and you can buy a ROCK of */ /* COCAINE in any city if you look? Also, how come they */ /* never seize any ships bringing the stuff into the */ /* country? Interesting questions? I say somebody is */ /* getting paid! (No flames please, just food for thought.) */ /* */ -- /* -The opinions expressed are my own, not my employers. */ /* For I can only express my own opinions. */ /* */ /* Kent L. Shephard : email - kls30@DUTS.ccc.amdahl.com */
rcd@ico.isc.com (Dick Dunn) (10/18/90)
kls30@duts.ccc.amdahl.com (Kent L Shephard) writes: > Upgrades via the "plug in an adapter to the 286" are expensive compared to > what a new 386sx motherboard costs... >...It is not that difficult to swap out a motherboard. Takes a little more > time than the upgrade board but is worth it... A while back I wrote a note that agrees with Kent about the cost. However, it may not be as easy as you think to swap motherboards! Contrary to popular wisdom, the innards of clones are not all plug-compatible. Most are, but beware. A tale of woe... I tried several times to upgrade an old NEC APC-IV. That's their basic AT clone from some years ago. The first attempts at upgrading were add-in 386 boards, either plugging directly into the CPU socket or plugging into the bus with a cable to the CPU socket. Either they didn't fit (given space constraints on the board) or didn't work (somebody playing BIOS games, I suspect; that always gets UNIX). So I decided to swap motherboards. Simple, right? Just open it up, pull the cards, disconnect everything, swap motherboard, reconnect and go. Not so. The first thing I discovered was that the APC-IV power supply connector was nonstandard. No regular P8/P9; it has an 8-pin and a 4-pin connector. Fortunately I had the maintenance manual so I didn't just try rewiring into new plugs, 'cause things ain't the same. Not only is the order different; the power-supply gozoutas differ: There's no power-good connection. (Per the discussion a while back, that's important for reli- ability. I have no idea how the APC-IV does reset on power fail; I haven't stared at the logics.) OK, so replace the power supply, right? Measure first; yeah, it'll fit just fine. Well, it almost fits, except that the power connector holes have a slightly funny shape, and the switch doesn't quite line up with the case hole. A little "plastic surgery" fixes that, but by this time the temper is getting a bit short... Now let's do the motherboard. Yank everything loose, pull the board. The replacement is a baby AT size, so it's gotta fit. I've checked the mount- ing holes; they line up. Set the new motherboard in and...what the hell?? There's a brace for the center disk-drive bays in the way! The APC-IV motherboard is slightly shallower (front to back of machine) than standard, so that it will clear the brace, but a normal motherboard won't fit. (The solution was to get a new case *and* power supply! Effectively the upgrade has become a way to re-use existing peripherals. But, *if* there had been a usable CPU-only upgrade, it would have been more attractive.) I'm sure these aren't the only things that can thwart a motherboard swap, but they're certainly enough. -- Dick Dunn rcd@ico.isc.com -or- ico!rcd Boulder, CO (303)449-2870 ...Never offend with style when you can offend with substance.
wilker@descartes.math.purdue.edu (Clarence Wilkerson) (10/18/90)
But can you actually get your hands on a 386sx board. About two weeks ago I decided totake the plunge and buy one. I sat down with my 800 page COMPUTER SHOPPER, and called each ad that had a 80386sx MB for less than $400. No place had any in stock at the advertised price...Treasure Chest claimed their $295 price was a "misprint" and the real price was $375. Others said that due to the shortage of chips, they were only selling "bare bones" systems... MB. case, Power supply.. for several hundred more. Clarence Wilkerson
jca@pnet01.cts.com (John C. Archambeau) (10/18/90)
kls30@duts.ccc.amdahl.com (Kent L Shephard) writes: >Upgrades via the "plug in an adapter to the 286" are expensive compared to >what a new 386sx motherboard costs. I'm in Sunnyvale and out the door >price of a new motherboard w/o ram is about $300.00, the Sota upgrade >board is above $500.00. For $400.00 you can get a motherboard and 2MB of >ram. (memory is cheap ~$50/MB) If you look in Computer Shopper, PC Week, >etc you shoud be able to find a motherboard still for about $300.00. > >It is not that difficult to swap out a motherboard. Takes a little more >time than the upgrade board but is worth it. BTW I upgraded to a 386sx >last year from a 8Mhz 8088 with a 286 accelerator board. But what I did >was bought a system that was bare bones and just transferred cards. > >If you do buy a new motherboard you may be able to use your existing >memory in your 286 provided it is simms or sipps and the new mother board >takes the same type. The speed shouldn't be a problem if the simms/sipps >are 100ns or better because a lot of 386sx boards use 100 or 80ns chips. And even if the motherboard uses DRAM chips. They'll still work in a lot of 386SX's. Mine takes 256K or 1 Mb DRAMs at 100ns or faster. Just need to shop around. And I agree, the 386SX adaptors are not worth it. // JCA /* **--------------------------------------------------------------------------* ** Flames : /dev/null | Small memory model only for ** ARPANET : crash!pnet01!jca@nosc.mil | Unix? Get the (*bleep*) out ** INTERNET: jca@pnet01.cts.com | of here! ** UUCP : {nosc ucsd hplabs!hd-sdd}!crash!pnet01!jca **--------------------------------------------------------------------------* */
tvf@cci632.UUCP (Tom Frauenhofer) (10/18/90)
In article <15261@mentor.cc.purdue.edu> wilker@descartes.math.purdue.edu.UUCP (Clarence Wilkerson) writes: > But can you actually get your hands on a 386sx board. Yes, but it's getting hard. >About two weeks ago I decided totake the plunge and buy one. >I sat down with my 800 page COMPUTER SHOPPER, and called each >ad that had a 80386sx MB for less than $400. No place had any >in stock at the advertised price...Treasure Chest claimed their >$295 price was a "misprint" and the real price was $375. Others Try Hokkins Systemation in San Jose, CA. They've got a 16 MHz 386sx for $335 dollars. I just got it a week ago from them, it works good, uses the NEAT chipset. Also Hokkins was pretty good in giving me all the technical info I wanted before I bought, they shipped when promised, and the little suport I needed to get it up and running was good (much better than the place I bought my 286 board from several years ago, anyway). And they made sure that I knew what my system power requirements would be for the configuration I was planning to use. Their address/phone number is: Hokkins Systemation, Inc. 131 East Brokaw Road San Jose, CA 95112 (408) 436-8303 FAX: (408) 436-3021 I've no relation to them, just a statisfied customer. >said that due to the shortage of chips, they were only selling >"bare bones" systems... MB. case, Power supply.. for several hundred >more. One place I called (not Hokkins) said that Intel was phasing out the 16 MHz 386sx chips in favor of the 20 MHz chips, but that 20 MHz production volumes were still too low to meed the demand. He claimed that this was because the margins on the 16 MHz chips were a little lower than Intel liked and that this was their way of increasing their profit margins on the sx. I don't know how true this is, sounds plausible to me. -- Thomas V. Frauenhofer, WA2YYW ccicpg!cci632!tvf@uunet.uu.net tvf1477@ma.cs.rit.edu "Little cockroach on the wall/Don't you have no friends at all? Doesn't anybody love you?/God will love you! (SQUISH!)"
bill@unixland.uucp (Bill Heiser) (10/19/90)
In article <40997@cci632.UUCP> tvf@cci632.UUCP (Tom Frauenhofer) writes: >>in stock at the advertised price...Treasure Chest claimed their >>$295 price was a "misprint" and the real price was $375. Others Treasure Chest is (IMHO) a waste of time. I wasted a week trying to get an Adaptec card from them (they claimed it was in stock until AFTER they had made me wait a week, then said it was out of stock). Hogwash! I cancelled my order and paid more (BUT took delivery!) locally. -- home: ...!{uunet,bloom-beacon,esegue}!world!unixland!bill bill@unixland.uucp bill%unixland.uucp@world.std.com Public Access Unix - Esix SYSVR3 - (508) 655-3848
jca@pnet01.cts.com (John C. Archambeau) (10/19/90)
rcd@ico.isc.com (Dick Dunn) writes: >(The solution was to get a new case *and* power supply! Effectively the >upgrade has become a way to re-use existing peripherals. But, *if* there >had been a usable CPU-only upgrade, it would have been more attractive.) > >I'm sure these aren't the only things that can thwart a motherboard swap, >but they're certainly enough. If you have anything that may be remotely proprietary then you're better investment is a barebones system upgrade. Major IBM compatable vendors have a habit of using proprietary motherboard form factors and power supplies. If you started out with a generic system that is compatable then you can safely bet that you can upgrade the motherboard with a generic 386 or whatever that fits the same motherboard form factor. // JCA /* **--------------------------------------------------------------------------* ** Flames : /dev/null | Small memory model only for ** ARPANET : crash!pnet01!jca@nosc.mil | Unix? Get the (*bleep*) out ** INTERNET: jca@pnet01.cts.com | of here! ** UUCP : {nosc ucsd hplabs!hd-sdd}!crash!pnet01!jca **--------------------------------------------------------------------------* */
shwake@raysnec.UUCP (Ray Shwake) (10/19/90)
rcd@ico.isc.com (Dick Dunn) writes: >I tried several times to upgrade an old NEC APC-IV. That's their basic AT >clone from some years ago. The first attempts at upgrading were add-in 386 >boards, either plugging directly into the CPU socket or plugging into the >bus with a cable to the CPU socket. Either they didn't fit (given space >constraints on the board) or didn't work (somebody playing BIOS games, I >suspect; that always gets UNIX). None of this surprises me based on my experiences with NEC's 386/20. I'd considered upgrading mine given the absence of memory cache and limited (and EXPENSIVE) memory expansion potential. Given my own suspicions regarding form factor, screw bracings and connectors - and considering that floppy, serial and parallel controllers run off the motherboard - I decided that it was not worth it. Hey, it's not *that* bad a box, and it's certainly adequate to support my DOS and Xenix work, not to mention occasional ISC UNIX work. I can always buy a more powerful box for more serious work. Given the radical surgery obviously called for with the APC-IV (and with some other boxes) it may be appropriate just to keep it around for AT-class use.
tvf@cci632.UUCP (Tom Frauenhofer) (10/20/90)
In article <1990Oct18.221929.6468@unixland.uucp> bill@unixland.uucp (Bill Heiser) writes: >In article <40997@cci632.UUCP> tvf@cci632.UUCP (Tom Frauenhofer) writes: >>>in stock at the advertised price...Treasure Chest claimed their >>>$295 price was a "misprint" and the real price was $375. Others Please get attributions right - I did not say this. -- Thomas V. Frauenhofer, WA2YYW {uupsi,ccicpg}!cci632!tvf@uunet.uu.net tvf1477@ma.cs.rit.edu "Little cockroach on the wall/Don't you have no friends at all? Doesn't anybody love you?/God will love you! (SQUISH!)"
root@cca.ucsf.edu (Systems Staff) (10/23/90)
In article <1990Oct17.175700.24704@ico.isc.com>, rcd@ico.isc.com (Dick Dunn) writes: > > A while back I wrote a note that agrees with Kent about the cost. However, > it may not be as easy as you think to swap motherboards! Contrary to > popular wisdom, the innards of clones are not all plug-compatible. Most > are, but beware. A tale of woe... > > I tried several times to upgrade an old NEC APC-IV. That's their basic AT > clone from some years ago. I don't think NEC ever claimed this was an IBM clone, did they? The impression I got was that they thought they were big enough to set a standard themselves. Maybe they did in their domestic market. They did do some nice video, though. Thos Sumner Internet: thos@cca.ucsf.edu (The I.G.) UUCP: ...ucbvax!ucsfcgl!cca.ucsf!thos BITNET: thos@ucsfcca U.S. Mail: Thos Sumner, Computer Center, Rm U-76, UCSF San Francisco, CA 94143-0704 USA I hear nothing in life is certain but death and taxes -- and they're working on death. #include <disclaimer.std>