davidg%aegis.or.jp@kyoto-u.ac.jp (Dave McLane) (04/21/91)
Here is a summary of what I found out regarding 4 port cards. It's
a pretty long story but has a happy ending ... at least I'm real
happy with the way it turned out!
----- First my requirements may be a bit different than you're
used to, so to forestall confusion:
1. I'm in Japan and cannot call 800 numbers except by contracting
with a independent company which charges a fortune for small
fry like me.
2. Hanging around on the phone negotiating voice menus and leaving
messages for callbacks that never occur is an expensive proposition
from Japan.
2. Some (about 50% according to my experience) companies won't
sell to Japan; either not at all or only via their dealer who
typically charges 2X-3X the price. Charging 2X-3X the price is
quite reasonable considering what it costs to do business here,
but I don't have that kind of money for the kind of system I
need so I'm trying to pull a rabbit out of a hat, so to speak.
3. Some companies (about 75% according to my experience) are
simply unable to deal with international shipments. One notable
exception is Programmer's Connection which knows what they're
doing; one notable example could not physically write my
address + fax + tel (which is the de facto standard in Japan) as
American-style addresses are built into their "state-of-the-art" LAN.
FYI, the reason tel/fax is necessary here is because there are
no street numbers. What looks like a street number is only the
plot registry number and there are 4-5 separate houses who
share my number. The only way to find out where I am physically
located is to have a map and I keep one ready to fax off to
people when they can't find my place. Luckily I live near a
major hospital so when people/cab drivers/delivery people
can't find my house I ask them to go to the hospital and
I walk over and point out where I live.
4. My saving grace is that I've been able to set up a DOS-based
JUNET/USENET-linked system which allows me to connect with
people. Otherwise I'd be dead because because I don't know
anybody else doing what I'm trying to do in Japan (set up a ISC
UNIX 2.2 on a Dell 386 to run as multi-line quasi-public access
UNI site).
----- Considering all that, the practical aspects of actually
getting something that works is a major consideration. As long as
it works, and is reasonably priced (taking into consideration the
cost of the phone calls and shipping) I'm happy enough. Here's
what kind of help/info I got:
1. INTEL 6-port ICC card.
This is the card that I couldn't get to work and Tracy Riley at
INTEL says that they no longer make/support this board...
2. Computer Hot Line (ads from resellers) and Computer Shopper (PC
parts/software) are said to be invaluable.
I don't get these mags and the person I know who used to gave up
as they are pretty expensive here in Japan so I didn't follow up
on this...
3. HUB-6, originally by Bell Tech, then acquired by INTEL.
I couldn't get the address/telco/fax of any place that had one
for sale...
4. Computer Discount Warehouse. They say they can get the AST-4
board for me for $284. About two weeks delivery.
Again, no address...
5. JDR Microdevices in San Jose sell a 4 port card under the "MCT"
(Modular Circuit Technology) brand name that is an AST 4 port
clone. Make sure you ask for the "multiuser" card - they also
have some other dumb 4 port cards that are not AST clones.
Again, no address...
6. Advanced Computer Products, 1310 E. Edinger, Santa Ana, CA
92705, 800 FONE ACP/(800 3663227) 714 558 8813 was advertising
an AST 4-Port/XN for $99.
I called voice and talked to Bezar who said they had the card at
that price. Since my address is pretty horrible to say over the
phone ("Minami", 'm', 'i', 'n'...) I faxed my order/address/VISA
card immediately after the voice call. No reply. No reply to a
follow-up fax sent a week later....
7. DFI MU-440 board (AST-4 clone) for $139. Be sure you specify
the DFI MU-440 board, as DFI makes other 4-port boards. The
MU-440 (MU=multi-user) is the AST-4 clone; others are for DOS
and while the four ports share a single interrupt, they assume
that only one port will be active at any time. The board comes
with four um82450 uarts. Two are socketed, two are not. Altex
Electronics, Inc., 11342 IH-35 North, San Antonio, TX 78233
+1-512-637-3200 (voice), +1-512-344-2985 (fax), (800) 531-5369.
You can buy NS16550AFNs from Altex Electronics. At $19.95 each,
they are a bit more expensive than some other places. They are
also available ($14.95, they say) from: JDR Microdevices, 2233
Branham Lane, San Jose, CA 95124, +1-408-559-1200 (voice),
+1-408-559-0250 (fax), (800) 538-5000.
I didn't try them as I already had something going (see next).
8. Decision-Computer International Co. Ltd. 4/F No. 31-3, Alley 4,
Lane 906, Ming Shen East Road, Taipei, Taiwan, R.O.C. Tel:
+886-2-766-5753, Fax: +886-2-766-5702. Contact is Casper Chang.
They stock and ship (almost) immediately by speed post the
following items:
PC COM 2 port card with 16550 chips US$44.00
This card takes two slots, one for
the board and one for the second
25 pin female connector.
PC COM 4 port card with 16500 chips US$98.00
This card takes one slot and uses a
52 pin -> cable with 4 X 25 pin
female connectors.
PC COM device driver for AT&T/ISC UNIX US$25.00
Works OK with regular logins, but
not VP/ix (see next).
Female-Female gender-benders US$ 6.00
Standard 25 pin cables in Japan
come with male connectors at both
ends, thus I got 6 gender-benders.
I am running both the 2 port card and the 4 port card on my Dell
system 333D (386 33MHz) with ISC 2.2 and they work well; see
next for details.
----- Installing the PC COM cards was fairly straightforward, all
things considered. I used XU (comes as part of the X00 FOSSIL
driver for DOS) to check the cards, installed the PC COM -> FAS
2.0.8 drivers, and checked the system with u396mon.
1. Installed the 2-port card as COM1/COM2 (IRQ 4/3) and run XU.EXE
and verified that the chips were functioning correctly as FIFO
buffered devices.
2. Installed the 4-port card as COM1/COM2/COM3/COM4 (IRQ 4/3) and
run XU.EXE and verified that the chips were functioning
correctly as FIFO buffered devices.
3. The 4-port card can be configured as a) COM1-COM4, b) COM1-COM2
+ 2 additional ports, c) 4 additional ports. Installed the
2-port card as COM1/COM2 and the 4-port card as 4 additional
ports running on IRQ 9 (IRQ2 on board; don't ask me about it,
but it works OK).
4. Installed the PC COM drivers which worked OK except they
exhibited the same behavior as the standard ISC asy drivers: if
the carrier goes down when in VP/ix, all processes for that
login remains online and whoever called in became whoever was on
before. (A useful "feature", but I didn't need it :-)
5. The PC COM stuff comes with some source code to test out various
things (although no source code for the ISC drivers) and it looked
quite similar to the way the FAS 2.0.8 driver worked with the AST
4-port card so, just for fun, I installed FAS as if the PC COM
4-port was the AST 4-port and everything worked well!
Note: I've sent the source for FAS 2.0.8 to Casper Chang at
Decision and hopefully they will do something useful with it.
6. Ran many tests using u386mon to monitor how much of the CPU time
was being used. Sample test: 3 channels all downloading at
19,200 BPS take approximately 6% of the time (7% showing less
the 1% used by u386mon).
7. I've also installed GETTY 2.0 which allows me init the modem
plus change speed on login to whatever the modem reports
(including locking the port if needs be via some
working-but-butchered additions of my own).
I'm pretty happy with the set up, considering that I only had
to shell out a couple of hundred bucks for the hardware plus
another hundred dollars or so faxing the U.S./Taiwan.
----- The total package I'm running includes:
1. PC COM 4-port card & PC COM 4-port card from Decision.
2. XU.EXE from X00V124.ZIP (DOS executable).
3. FAS 2.0.8 (UNIX source)
4. GETTY 2.0 (UNIX source).
5. U386MON (UNIX source).
I'm not about to try and e-mail this stuff but if anybody wants it
I'd be willing to put it on a MS-DOS 2D 5.25" floppies and send
snail mail it to you if you would send me a self-addressed envelope
and, say, US$5.00 to cover the cost of the disks and postage.
Many thanks to all the people who help me on this, especially Dave
Goodman <misty!daveg@uunet.uu.net), Larry Snyder <larry@nstar.rn.com>
and Mike Squires (mikes@iuvax.cs.indiana.edu).
--Dave McLane <davidg%aegis.or.jp> JUNET
<davidg%aegis.or.jp@kyoto-u.ac.jp> INTERNET
<davidg%aegis.or.jp@jpnkyoto.kyoto-u.ac.jp> BITNET
<davidg%aegis.or.jp%yoto-u.ac.jp@uunet.uu.net> via UUNET
==== The Aegis Society =============================================
Minami Hirao 1-6, Imazato The content and process of
Nagaokakyo-shi, Kyoto-fu, 617 Japan international/cultural
Tel: +81-75-951-1168 Fax: +81-75-957-1087 communication.
====================================================================bill@unixland.uucp (Bill Heiser) (04/22/91)
In article <T74R12w163w@aegis.or.jp> davidg%aegis.or.jp@kyoto-u.ac.jp (Dave McLane) writes: > You can buy NS16550AFNs from Altex Electronics. At $19.95 each, > they are a bit more expensive than some other places. They are > also available ($14.95, they say) from: JDR Microdevices, 2233 > Branham Lane, San Jose, CA 95124, +1-408-559-1200 (voice), Careful here ... I ordered *NS16550A* chips from JDR Microdevices, and received *WD* junk. (supposedly WD equivalent of NS chips) ... they didn't work. Sent them back a few weeks ago and have yet to hear from them. Needless to say, I'm not tooooo thrilled with JDR ... -- bill@unixland.uucp The Think_Tank BBS & Public Access Unix ...!uunet!think!unixland!bill ...!{uunet,bloom-beacon,esegue}!world!unixland!bill 508-655-3848 (2400) 508-651-8723 (9600-HST) 508-651-8733 (9600-PEP-V32)
rcbarn@rw7.urc.tue.nl (Raymond Nijssen) (04/22/91)
bill@unixland.uucp (Bill Heiser) writes: >In article <T74R12w163w@aegis.or.jp> davidg%aegis.or.jp@kyoto-u.ac.jp (Dave McLane) writes: >> You can buy NS16550AFNs from Altex Electronics. >Careful here ... I ordered *NS16550A* chips [...] Be even more careful here! Only the AFN version offers a 16 byte FIFO. | Raymond X.T. Nijssen | Eindhoven Univ. of Technology | | raymond@es.ele.tue.nl | EH 7.13, PO 513, 5600 MB Eindhoven, The Netherlands | | "Don't put that on the wall in a tax-payer supported museum!" Pat Buchanan | -- | Raymond X.T. Nijssen | Eindhoven Univ. of Technology | | raymond@es.ele.tue.nl | EH 7.13, PO 513, 5600 MB Eindhoven, The Netherlands | | "Don't put that on the wall in a tax-payer supported museum!" Pat Buchanan |
gemini@geminix.in-berlin.de (Uwe Doering) (04/24/91)
rcbarn@rw7.urc.tue.nl (Raymond Nijssen) writes: >bill@unixland.uucp (Bill Heiser) writes: >>In article <T74R12w163w@aegis.or.jp> davidg%aegis.or.jp@kyoto-u.ac.jp (Dave McLane) writes: >>> You can buy NS16550AFNs from Altex Electronics. >>Careful here ... I ordered *NS16550A* chips [...] > >Be even more careful here! Only the AFN version offers a 16 byte FIFO. I disagree. I developed FAS for NS16550A chips, and have six of them on my own serial card. And obviously, FAS uses the 16 byte FIFOs. The `AF' version has a faster timing, but is functionally equivalent to the `A' version. The trailing `N' indicates the packaging technique used for this chip, in this case a plastic body in DIL form. Uwe -- Uwe Doering | INET : gemini@geminix.in-berlin.de Berlin |---------------------------------------------------------------- Germany | UUCP : ...!unido!fub!geminix.in-berlin.de!gemini
davidg%aegis.or.jp@kyoto-u.ac.jp (Dave McLane) (04/25/91)
gemini@geminix.in-berlin.de (Uwe Doering) writes: > I disagree. I developed FAS for NS16550A chips, and have six of them on my > own serial card. And obviously, FAS uses the 16 byte FIFOs. The `AF' version > has a faster timing, but is functionally equivalent to the `A' version. The > trailing `N' indicates the packaging technique used for this chip, in > this case a plastic body in DIL form. I'm not sure how you know that "it's obvious that FAS uses the 16 byte FIFOs." What indication did you get from FAS? The reason that I ask I am running FAS 2.0.8 with both NS16550AFN chips and the UARTs that are integrated with other functions on my Dell 333D; FAS accepts both and works with both ... until you see how much CPU time is being used. The significant reduction in time would seem to indicate FAS is using the FIFO buffers in the NS16550AFNs but not in the others.... --Dave
gemini@geminix.in-berlin.de (Uwe Doering) (04/25/91)
davidg%aegis.or.jp@kyoto-u.ac.jp (Dave McLane) writes: >gemini@geminix.in-berlin.de (Uwe Doering) writes: > >> I disagree. I developed FAS for NS16550A chips, and have six of them on my >> own serial card. And obviously, FAS uses the 16 byte FIFOs. The `AF' version >> has a faster timing, but is functionally equivalent to the `A' version. The >> trailing `N' indicates the packaging technique used for this chip, in >> this case a plastic body in DIL form. > >I'm not sure how you know that "it's obvious that FAS uses the 16 byte >FIFOs." What indication did you get from FAS? > >The reason that I ask I am running FAS 2.0.8 with both NS16550AFN >chips and the UARTs that are integrated with other functions on my >Dell 333D; FAS accepts both and works with both ... until you see >how much CPU time is being used. The significant reduction in time >would seem to indicate FAS is using the FIFO buffers in the >NS16550AFNs but not in the others.... Be assured that I did lots of performance tests during the development of FAS. Besides the six NS16550A chips I have two NS16450 UARTs on my 8-port card, so I could verify that with NS16550A chips FAS needs only a small fraction of the CPU time needed for NS16450 chips. At the time I released the first FAS version, there where no `AF' chips on the market. So I used the `A' chips and developed FAS with the help of the NS16550A data sheet. If there wouldn't have been a significant performance gain with the NS16550A chips I would never have released FAS. If you feel that the UARTs on your main board consume too much CPU time, then they are no NS16550A chips. At least I don't know of any NS16550A chips that are integrated with other functions, so I think that there are rather NS16450 or 8250 chips on the main board. But then I don't quite understand how this led you to the assumption that the `AF' type has another functionallity than the `A' type of the NS16550. Uwe -- Uwe Doering | INET : gemini@geminix.in-berlin.de Berlin |---------------------------------------------------------------- Germany | UUCP : ...!unido!fub!geminix.in-berlin.de!gemini
davidg%aegis.or.jp@kyoto-u.ac.jp (Dave McLane) (04/26/91)
gemini@geminix.in-berlin.de (Uwe Doering) writes: > If you feel that the UARTs on your main board consume too much CPU > time, then they are no NS16550A chips. At least I don't know of > any NS16550A chips that are integrated with other functions, so > I think that there are rather NS16450 or 8250 chips on the main > board. But then I don't quite understand how this led you to the > assumption that the `AF' type has another functionallity than the > `A' type of the NS16550. Well, actually, I wasn't talking about the difference between the 'A' and 'AF' chips, just the fact that even though some chip is "said" to have FIFOs on it doesn't mean that driver will recognize them as such. FAS puts up a display when the system boots showing what kind of chips it has recognized and you can run XU under DOS to get a reading. When my Dell 333D boots ISC UNIX with a 4 port Decision card in it FAS shows FFFF for the Decision ports and ** for the 2 ports that are integrated into one chip on the Dell motherboard. Another board I had in the machine had UM82C550 chips on it which were *said* to be "the same as" 16550s, but FAS/XU didn't recognize them as having FIFOs. The point I'm trying to make is that chip only has functioning FIFOs on it when the driver recognizes them, not when somebody "says" it has FIDOs.... --Dave
nvk@ddsw1.MCS.COM (Norman Kohn) (04/27/91)
In article <1991Apr21.224353.693@unixland.uucp> bill@unixland.uucp (Bill Heiser) writes: >In article <T74R12w163w@aegis.or.jp> davidg%aegis.or.jp@kyoto-u.ac.jp (Dave McLane) writes: > > >> You can buy NS16550AFNs from Altex Electronics. At $19.95 each, >> they are a bit more expensive than some other places. They are >> also available ($14.95, they say) from: JDR Microdevices, 2233 >> Branham Lane, San Jose, CA 95124, +1-408-559-1200 (voice), > > >Careful here ... I ordered *NS16550A* chips from JDR Microdevices, >and received *WD* junk. (supposedly WD equivalent of NS chips) ... they >didn't work. Sent them back a few weeks ago and have yet to hear from >them. > Suggest Microprocessors Unlimited (I don't have tel # handy but they advertise extensively in Byte, etc.). Always speedy, helpful and reliable... and they had the NS16550A chips, when I last looked. -- Norman Kohn | ...ddsw1!nvk Chicago, Il. | days/ans svc: (312) 650-6840 | eves: (312) 373-0564
rcbarn@rw6.urc.tue.nl (Raymond Nijssen) (04/29/91)
gemini@geminix.in-berlin.de (Uwe Doering) writes: >rcbarn@rw7.urc.tue.nl (Raymond Nijssen) writes: >>bill@unixland.uucp (Bill Heiser) writes: >>>In article <T74R12w163w@aegis.or.jp> davidg%aegis.or.jp@kyoto-u.ac.jp (Dave McLane) writes: >>>> You can buy NS16550AFNs from Altex Electronics. >>>Careful here ... I ordered *NS16550A* chips [...] >> >>Be even more careful here! Only the AFN version offers a 16 byte FIFO. > >I disagree. I developed FAS for NS16550A chips, and have six of them on my >own serial card. And obviously, FAS uses the 16 byte FIFOs. The `AF' version >has a faster timing, but is functionally equivalent to the `A' version. The >trailing `N' indicates the packaging technique used for this chip, in >this case a plastic body in DIL form. My warning reflected the warnings some 2 years ago that there were NS16550A's around with broken FIFO's; it was stated repeatedly that not all bytes of the FIFO were ok, though I didn't experience this myself: I just got the AF(N) version which works fine. -Raymond -- | Raymond X.T. Nijssen | Eindhoven Univ. of Technology | | raymond@es.ele.tue.nl | EH 7.13, PO 513, 5600 MB Eindhoven, The Netherlands | | "Don't put that on the wall in a tax-payer supported museum!" Pat Buchanan |
gemini@geminix.in-berlin.de (Uwe Doering) (04/30/91)
rcbarn@rw6.urc.tue.nl (Raymond Nijssen) writes: >My warning reflected the warnings some 2 years ago that there were NS16550A's >around with broken FIFO's; it was stated repeatedly that not all bytes of the >FIFO were ok, though I didn't experience this myself: I just got the AF(N) >version which works fine. Are you sure about that? I know that the NS16550 (without trailing `A') has broken FIFOs. This was the predecessor of the NS16550A, and isn't produced any more, as far as I know. But this broken chip seems to be the source for most of the second source manufacturers that claim to have UARTs that are fully compatible to the NS16550. Sure they are. They are as broken as the NS16550. ;-) Uwe -- Uwe Doering | INET : gemini@geminix.in-berlin.de Berlin |---------------------------------------------------------------- Germany | UUCP : ...!unido!fub!geminix.in-berlin.de!gemini
ash@mlacus.oz (Ash Nallawalla) (05/02/91)
davidg%aegis.or.jp@kyoto-u.ac.jp (Dave McLane) writes: > You can buy NS16550AFNs from Altex Electronics. At $19.95 each, > they are a bit more expensive than some other places. They are > also available ($14.95, they say) from: JDR Microdevices, 2233 > Branham Lane, San Jose, CA 95124, +1-408-559-1200 (voice), > +1-408-559-0250 (fax), (800) 538-5000. If you live outside the US it is not worth contacting JDR Microdevices because they try and do the "right thing", namely, they will ask you to fill out an export declaration form to the effect that you will not pass on the chips to unspecified other nations. They also have a minimum order amount, which from memory was worth 2-3 chips. Thanks for posting the saga. I am sure many will appreciate the effort. I did. -- ============================================================================= Ash Nallawalla Tel: +61 3 550-1638 BH; Fax +61 3 742-4566 (Home) ZL4LM/VK3CIT Postal: P.O. Box 539, Werribee VIC 3030, Australia ash@mlacus.oz.au, ash@csource.oz.au Fidonet: 3:635/508
toma@swsrv1.cirr.com (Tom Armistead) (05/03/91)
davidg%aegis.or.jp@kyoto-u.ac.jp (Dave McLane) writes: > > You can buy NS16550AFNs from Altex Electronics. At $19.95 each, > they are a bit more expensive than some other places. They are > also available ($14.95, they say) from: JDR Microdevices, 2233 > Branham Lane, San Jose, CA 95124, +1-408-559-1200 (voice), > +1-408-559-0250 (fax), (800) 538-5000. > B.G. Micro has them for $15.00 P.O. Box 280298 Dallas, Tx 75228 (214)271-5546 -- Tom Armistead - Software Services - 2918 Dukeswood Dr. - Garland, Tx 75040 =========================================================================== toma@swsrv1.cirr.com {egsner,letni,ozdaltx,void}!swsrv1!toma
mdm@mondy.UUCP (Michael D. Mondy) (05/09/91)
davidg%aegis.or.jp@kyoto-u.ac.jp (Dave McLane) writes: > [ ... ] >The reason that I ask I am running FAS 2.0.8 with both NS16550AFN >chips and the UARTs that are integrated with other functions on my >Dell 333D; FAS accepts both and works with both ... until you see >how much CPU time is being used. The significant reduction in time >would seem to indicate FAS is using the FIFO buffers in the >NS16550AFNs but not in the others.... > [ ... ] In article <8PBQUOT@geminix.in-berlin.de> gemini@geminix.in-berlin.de (Uwe Doering) writes: > [ ... ] >If you feel that the UARTs on your main board consume too much CPU >time, then they are no NS16550A chips. At least I don't know of >any NS16550A chips that are integrated with other functions, so >I think that there are rather NS16450 or 8250 chips on the main >board. [ ... ] My Dell 325 has a VL16C452-QC chip in it. This is a chip made by VLSI (what a name) and is functionally equivalent to two 16450s and and parallel port chip. I believe that it may be replaced with a VL16C552-QC to get the equivalent of 16550s with fifos but I have not tried this. Before deciding to go with an intelligent serial port I found out that this chip may be purchased from Arrow at +1 800 932 7769 for $59.03. Does anybody know how VLSI's chips compare to the other manufacturer's chips? Just checked a databook - national makes a 15552. Has anyone at Dell tried using the fifo version of the chip on the motherboard? Is Dell still using the non-fifo chips in their machines? Even the 486 monsters intended to be used as unix workstations?!? For a just few bucks more, a very expensive machine could be transformed from something with ridiculous serial i/o performance to a box with reasonable serial i/o performance. [ And if my experiences are representative, I'd bet that a ton of money might be saved in customer support. ] Michael Mondy