[comp.org.eff.talk] Publications

spaf@cs.purdue.EDU (Gene Spafford) (09/07/90)

In article <55@hyprion.ddmi.com> rabbit@hyprion.UUCP (Dr. Roger Rabbit) writes:
>If you are trying to exclude some published material because it is
>"run off in a basement somewhere", then you are a dangerous man, Mr.
>Spafford.  

I'd like to think I'm dangerous no matter what I believe :-)

I'm not trying to exclude anything.  I'm trying to find out if someone
*knows* (not believes or hopes for) the legal definition of what makes
something a publication.  Further discussion on the topic is largely
meaningless otherwise.

Basically, you and I agree.  I guess I'm just bad at expressing it
and/or you are failing to see it.  I don't want any restrictions on
the right to publish (after all, I'm in a "publish or perish mode" :-)
but I also am against the contention that 1st amendment provides any
immunity from fraud prosecutions, or lawsuits for libel.  I'm trying
to find out what 200 years of legal precedent has done to define the
1st amendment -- not argue against it!

For instance, the government stipulated that Phrack was a publication,
Mr. Neidorf claimed it was a publication.  I claim it was publication.
You agree.  So does pretty much everybody else who has posted here.
So why are so many people posting messages implying I'm some sort of
fascist? 

I claim that I see a difference between a sheet run off on an
irregular basis in a basement and the NY Times.  I didn't claim it
deserves any less protection under the 1st (nor did I claim it
deserved the same -- I just said I see a difference).  I then asked if
there is a legally defined difference, and if there is a legal
definition of exactly what consititutes a publication.  I'm still
waiting for a definitive answer.  Personal attacks do not constitute
an informed answer. :-)


-- 
"I came here for an argument."
"Oh, sorry.  This is abuse.  Argument is next door over."

Gene Spafford

howell@bert.llnl.gov (Louis Howell) (09/07/90)

In article <11622@medusa.cs.purdue.edu>, spaf@cs.purdue.EDU (Gene Spafford)
writes:
|> I'm not trying to exclude anything.  I'm trying to find out if someone
|> *knows* (not believes or hopes for) the legal definition of what makes
|> something a publication.  Further discussion on the topic is largely
|> meaningless otherwise.
|> 
|> [...]
|> 
|> I claim that I see a difference between a sheet run off on an
|> irregular basis in a basement and the NY Times.  I didn't claim it
|> deserves any less protection under the 1st (nor did I claim it
|> deserved the same -- I just said I see a difference).  I then asked if
|> there is a legally defined difference, and if there is a legal
|> definition of exactly what consititutes a publication.  I'm still
|> waiting for a definitive answer.  Personal attacks do not constitute
|> an informed answer. :-)

Why does it matter?  If somehow something doesn't "qualify" as a publication,
due to small print run, no subscribers, passed out free, etc., then it
becomes a question of free speech rather than free press.  Does it really
make a difference whether I make one copy and invoke freedom of speech,
or make 50 copies and invoke freedom of the press?  Last time I heard,
both were mentioned in the First.  Who cares where we put the dividing
line on what is really a continuous spectrum?

I'm not saying there are no or should be no legal differences in other areas
such as copyright law.  This is strictly a question of freedom from
government intrusion.

--
Louis Howell

  "A few sums!" retorted Martens, with a trace of his old spirit.  "A major
navigational change, like the one needed to break us away from the comet
and put us on an orbit to Earth, involves about a hundred thousand separate
calculations.  Even the computer needs several minutes for the job."

gl8f@astsun9.astro.Virginia.EDU (Greg Lindahl) (09/08/90)

In article <11622@medusa.cs.purdue.edu> spaf@cs.purdue.edu (Gene Spafford) writes:

>but I also am against the contention that 1st amendment provides any
>immunity from fraud prosecutions, or lawsuits for libel.

I haven't seen anyone say that the 1st amendment provides this
immunity. Perhaps we're all on utterly different wavelengths. Let's
not argue about straw men when there are plenty of interesting issues.

--
"Perhaps I'm commenting a bit cynically, but I think I'm qualified to."
                                              - Dan Bernstein

emv@math.lsa.umich.edu (Edward Vielmetti) (09/08/90)

In article <1990Sep7.091041@bert.llnl.gov> howell@bert.llnl.gov (Louis Howell) writes:

   Spaf says:
   |> I claim that I see a difference between a sheet run off on an
   |> irregular basis in a basement and the NY Times.  I didn't claim it
   |> deserves any less protection under the 1st (nor did I claim it
   |> deserved the same -- I just said I see a difference).  I then asked if
   |> there is a legally defined difference, and if there is a legal
   |> definition of exactly what consititutes a publication.  I'm still
   |> waiting for a definitive answer.  Personal attacks do not constitute
   |> an informed answer. :-)

   Why does it matter?  If somehow something doesn't "qualify" as a publication,
   due to small print run, no subscribers, passed out free, etc., then it
   becomes a question of free speech rather than free press.  

I'm not a lawyer, etc.  Let me provide an argument by analogy.  Most
publications in the US have ISSN codes (International Standard Serial
Number) which is assigned by the National Serials Data Program of the
Library of Congress.  The Sept. 1990 issue of NetMonth, a monthly
publication of the BITNET Services Library, has an article on "Getting
an ISSN for an Electronic Journal" which I include for you below.

If a periodic is eligable for an ISSN, even if it doesn't actually
apply for and get such a registration, it's a periodical just the same
way the New York Times is.  (Or that's what I'd argue if I had to.)

--Ed

Edward Vielmetti, U of Michigan math dept <emv@math.lsa.umich.edu>
moderator, comp.archives

Subject: [bit.listserv.govdoc-l] ISSN for electronic magazine
Message-ID: <1990Aug27.230701.26931@math.lsa.umich.edu>
Followup-To: bit.listserv.govdoc-l
Reply-To: Discussion of Government Document Issues <GOVDOC-L@PSUVM.BITNET>
References: <GOVDOC-L%90082716545575@PSUVM.BITNET> 
Date: Mon, 27 Aug 90 23:07:01 GMT
X-Original-Newsgroups: bit.listserv.govdoc-l

Archive-name: issn/27-Aug-90
Original-posting-by: BFU@NIHCU.BITNET (Roger Burns)
Original-subject: ISSN for electronic magazine
Reposted-by: emv@math.lsa.umich.edu (Edward Vielmetti)


       The following is excerpted from the September 1990 issue of the
       electronic magazine NETMONTH.


       - Roger Burns
         BFU@CU.NIH.GOV
         BFU@NIHCU.BITNET

====================================================================


       NetMonth is a  network service publication distributed free  of
       charge to  students  and  professionals  in  BITNET  and  other
       networks. This magazine and its companion file, BITNET SERVERS,
       are the  work  of the  BITNET Services Library (BSL) staff  and
       contributors from around the network.



         *********
        *     *** *  Getting an ISSN for an Electronic Journal
        *    ***  *
        *  ***    *  by Charles W. Bailey, Jr.
        ***     ***
        *    ***  *  University of Houston
        *  ***    *
        * ***     *  LIB3@UHUPVM1
         *********


        [Thanks to Ted Werntz for bringing this to my attention. - Ed.]

        The International  Standard Serial Number  (ISSN)  is  a unique
        eight-digit number  that identifies a particular  serial.   For
        serials published in the U.S., ISSN numbers are assigned by the
        National  Serials  Data  Program  (NSDP)   of  the  Library  of
        Congress.

        Recently,  NSDP assigned an ISSN  to The Public-Access Computer
        Systems  Review,  an  electronic journal  that complements  the
        Public-Access  Computer Systems  Forum (PACS-L@UHUPVM1).    The
        PACS  Forum is  a moderated  BITNET  list that  deals with  all
        computer systems that libraries make  available to their users,
        and it  currently has over  1,100 subscribers in  25 countries.
        The PACS Review,  which is published three times a year,  deals
        with the same subject matter as the PACS Forum.   When an issue
        is published,   PACS Forum  users are  notified by  a table  of
        contents message,   which describes that issue's  article files
        and provides instructions for retrieving the files.

        NSDP also created a bibliographic record for the PACS Review in
        the OCLC Online Union Catalog, a twenty-million-record database
        that is widely used by  libraries for cataloging,  interlibrary
        loan, reference, and other purposes.   (A more powerful,  user-
        friendly version of  the OCLC Online Union  Catalog called EPIC
        has  just been  made available  for  fee-based searching.)    A
        bibliographic record describes  a serial (or other  work)  in a
        standard  machine-readable  format   according  to  established
        cataloging rules.

        It is noteworthy and commendable  that NSDP took the initiative
        to assign the PACS Review an ISSN  number and to catalog it;  I
        never contacted them  requesting that they do  so.   NSDP staff
        learned of the PACS Review as the result of two speeches I made
        about the publication at a recent national library conference.

        The  assignment  of  an  ISSN number  and  the  creation  of  a
        bibliographic record on  OCLC makes an electronic  journal more
        accessible to libraries and their users.  Electronic publishers
        are fortunate  that NSDP  has taken  a progressive,   proactive
        stand  on  electronic  journals,   and   it  is  treating  them
        seriously.  I would urge other electronic publishers to contact
        NSDP and  obtain ISSN  numbers for  their electronic  journals.
        The appropriate  application form  is contained  in a  brochure
        called "ISSN is for Serials," which is available from NSDP.

        For further information about getting an ISSN number contact:

             Library of Congress
             National Serials Data Program
             Washington, D.C. 20540
             (202) 707-6452