jkp@cs.HUT.FI (Jyrki Kuoppala) (09/02/90)
In article <15815@bfmny0.BFM.COM>, tneff@bfmny0 (Tom Neff) writes: >>Say Bob was temporarily maintaining an FTP list, and thus called a *lot* >>of FTPs in a short time. And/or say there was an easily-mistakable >>(to the police) book sitting by his computer like the GURPS book. > >Maintaining it for whom? If it's for a legitimate entity, Bob has no >problem. When they ask he says, "I'm maintaining the FTP list for Sam >at the such-and-such department; here, call him, he'll vouch for me; >here's what I do every night, I have nothing to hide." What's more >there would probably have been some public on-the-record announcement >made that Bob would be taking over for a month during Sam's vacation. I would say that your society is in a rather bad state if you have to prove that you are a white hat - that you didn't commit a crime. I thought one of the main principles of law in a modern society is that one is innocent until _proven_ guilty; what you are saying would mean that I'm guilty unless I can prove myself innocent. If you are willing to live in a society like that, fine. I'm not, and seems that many others even in the U.S. are not - perhaps that's why EFF was formed. It really seems that there's a big need for an organization like the EFF. On a totally different track, I wonder when glasnost will come to the U.S. (and to Finland ;-) It seems that the Eastern European countries in general and even the Soviet Union will soon be nicer places to live than the U.S considering the freedom of individuals. For example, I as a Finnish citizen always need a visa to go to the U.S. And this is by no means 'just a formality'; there are questions like 'have you ever been a member of a communist party' and if you say you have been a member of a communist party, you won't get a visa. Also, I've heard of cases where the U.S. embassy didn't give the visa, but started to question things like who you are going to visit to in the U.S. and asked for copies of personal correspondence with the folks you're going to visit. Generally a visa is needed for a Finnish citizen to visit the Soviet Union, but on some short trips one is not needed, and I certainly haven't heard of any silly questionnaires to be filled; it's a simple form where not much is asked. The meaning of the trip is asked, but a 'tourist trip' will do just fine. Now that the basic requirements for life such as a Usenet connection ;-) start to be available in the Eastern Europian countries as well, perhaps those wanting to live in a more free society should move to Moscow. I wonder if I'll get a visa to the U.S. after I tell here that two weeks ago I had email correspondence to both the Pentagon and Moscow at the same day (not Kreml, but Vadim says he can see Kremlin in his window) ;-). I mean, I have Russian contacts, isn't that considered very suspicious in the U.S. ? Here's a joke posted by Vadim G. Antonov to eunet.test. Vadim is a hacker (in the old, white-hat sense of the word) living in Moscow. // Early morning. Gorby waked up by a phone ring. He opens eyes // and asks: "Who?" // "Shevarnadze speaking. Misha, can you remember the paper you // signed yesterday while we drank together?" // "And what?" // "You allowed all the people to leave USSR alone!" // "And what?" // "Look at the window - there are nobody on the street!" // "But you're still in USSR?" // "No, I'm ringing you from New York." //Jyrki Jyrki Kuoppala Helsinki University of Technology, Finland. Internet : jkp@cs.hut.fi [130.233.251.253] X400 : /C=fi/A=fumail/P=inet/O=hut/OU=cs/S=Kuoppala/G=Jyrki BITNET : jkp@fingate.bitnet Gravity is a myth, the Earth sucks!
lars@spectrum.CMC.COM (Lars Poulsen) (09/10/90)
This is a somewhat interesting topic, but not really a computer security
or EFF issue. Hence I am trying to redirect it to
(1) misc.legal, which is where I think it belongs
(2) soc.culture.nordic, because I doubt that the ramblings of
misc.legal make it to Europe.
In article <1990Sep2.100614.12422@santra.uucp>
jkp@cs.HUT.FI (Jyrki Kuoppala) writes to alt.security and comp.eff.talk:
>I as a Finnish citizen always need a visa to go to the U.S. And this is
>by no means 'just a formality'; there are questions like 'have you
>ever been a member of a communist party' and if you say you have been
>a member of a communist party, you won't get a visa. Also, I've heard
>of cases where the U.S. embassy didn't give the visa, but started to
>question things like who you are going to visit to in the U.S. and
>asked for copies of personal correspondence with the folks you're
>going to visit.
>
>Generally a visa is needed for a Finnish citizen to visit the Soviet
>Union, but on some short trips one is not needed, and I certainly
>haven't heard of any silly questionnaires to be filled; it's a simple
>form where not much is asked. The meaning of the trip is asked, but a
>'tourist trip' will do just fine.
>
>Now that the basic requirements for life such as a Usenet connection
>;-) start to be available in the Eastern Europian countries as well,
>perhaps those wanting to live in a more free society should move to Moscow.
>
>I wonder if I'll get a visa to the U.S. after I tell here that two
>weeks ago I had email correspondence to both the Pentagon and Moscow
>at the same day (not Kreml, but Vadim says he can see Kremlin in his
>window) ;-). I mean, I have Russian contacts, isn't that considered
>very suspicious in the U.S. ?
The main reason that the U.S. requires visas from foreign visitors is
related to the reason that the United Kingdom used to hassle everybody
at the border control: They are trying to screen out would-be
immigrants. And rather than subject everybody to long interviews in the
airport, they are pushingmost of the screening back to the consular
office in the home country of the guest (Good idea). For all the
tongue-in-cheek remarks about how much things are improving in the USSR,
I still don't think there is a long line of people waiting to emigrate
to the USSR. When that changes, the visa procedures will change.
The cases where visitors are asked for correspondence to back up the
claims of "family visit" are gnerally cases where a young person without
visible means of support is planning to spend more than a month as a
tourist, and it appears that they most likely will finance this by
working illegally. This is no insignificant number of visitors. I know
MANY families that have illegal au pairs who are claiming that they are
going to visit "aunts and uncles" for a year, when this is simply not
true.
In most European countries, the governement maintans such a web of
databases linked together as to make it virtually impossible to work
illegally without being picked up and deported. Denmark, for instance,
has ONE integrated civil register that supplies name/address/citizenship
information for drivers licenses, tax information, state church
membership, census data, welfare department etc. You will not last 10
days claiming a fictitious social security number.
In the USA, on the other hand, there is no such register, and people can
hide successfully for years. This group of underground americans is
probably several million strong and include illegal immigrants as well
as prison escapees, men who are running away from child support payments
etc.
The offensive questions about communists are a remnant from the McCarthy
era, and now that the cold war seems to be over, I expect them to be
dropped soon.
--
/ Lars Poulsen, SMTS Software Engineer
CMC Rockwell lars@CMC.COM