TK0JUT2@netsys.NETSYS.COM (09/24/90)
A question for the law types out there: There has been considerable discussion on various nets about how to handle a situation if local or federal investigators come to the door. Is there a rule of thumb on what to do if: 1) One has done nothing wrong, but doesn't want to talk? 2) One isn't sure if they've done something wrong, and doesn't want to risk incrimination? 3) One has committed some transgression, but it isn't clear whether this visit is about those, or, if it is, how much one should cooperate? 4) At what point should one keep silent? At what point should an atty be requested? At one point should it be asked, "Am I under investigation?" It appears that those who have cooperated with the secret service, either through sincere belief that they did nothing wrong or through coercion have not been helped by their cooperation. There are rumors, stories, misconceptions, and general misinformation about how one should act and how one can assure their rights are protected. Could somebody draft up something that might be used to reduce the ignorance of the rest of us? Jim Thomas
brnstnd@kramden.acf.nyu.edu (Dan Bernstein) (09/24/90)
In article <180@netsys.NETSYS.COM> niu.bitnet!TK0JUT2@netsys.NETSYS.COM writes: > A question for the law types out there: There has been considerable > discussion on various nets about how to handle a situation if local or > federal investigators come to the door. Is there a rule of thumb on what to > do if: My general impression was ``call your lawyer first, talk later.'' You aren't incriminating yourself by refusing to say anything without a lawyer present. ---Dan
brad@looking.on.ca (Brad Templeton) (09/24/90)
Actually, some good simple rules that apply to any adversary or investigator (press or police) are: a) Don't talk if you have any reason to believe that they *think* or suspect you of any wrongdoing. (Wrongdoing by their definitions, not yours.) b) If you must talk, *ask* questions, do not anwer. And take care to make sure your own questions do not contain answers. If you remember to always ask a question, you put them on the defensive and confuse them, because they think they are there to ask the questions. They may not be fazed, but sometimes this is more fun than "no comment." c) Be "fully" cooperative, but insist that everything take place in writing. Say, "If you would be prepared to give a *complete* list of your questions in writing, I will give them due consideration." This makes them stop and think. (With the press, it also can add a delay which makes them go away. If they insist on speed, tell them to fax the questions. You are under no obligation to fax the answers back, even if you do answer.) In this situation, you can't be accused of refusing to comment. You are just being careful and getting documentation -- an admirable trait. Get a complete list of questions -- make them understand they don't get to ask any more -- that way you can sometimes figure their intent. d) If you can slow it down, slow it down. Using writing is just one example of this. Slowing it down is almost always in your advantage, and not in theirs. e) Scare 'em. It may not work, but tell them you are turning on your camcorder or tape recorder while they do what they do -- for your records. It may have no weight in evidence, and they may tell you to shut it down (legally or not) but it will scare 'em. And it looks bad if they refuse you your right to document events. These guys live by documentation and paperwork. But they don't like it if they are stepping over the line. And of course, if you think you are in serious shit, call your lawyer. Ask if you are under arrest, and under what charge. If you are under arrest, you have a right to call a lawyer (eventually). If you are not, you are free to call a lawyer. -- Brad Templeton, ClariNet Communications Corp. -- Waterloo, Ontario 519/884-7473
mbrown@tonic.osf.org (Mark Brown) (09/24/90)
[This thread on "what to do when the cops show up" has been cross-posted to misc.legal for your convenience...] brad@looking.on.ca (Brad Templeton) writes: |> Actually, some good simple rules that apply to any adversary or |> investigator (press or police) are: |> a) Don't talk if you have any reason to believe that they *think* or |> suspect you of any wrongdoing. (Wrongdoing by their definitions, not yours.) Best advice. *NEVER* volunteer *ANYTHING*. When they show up, you'll probably be under stress -- and your mistakes will count against you. Get A Lawyer. |> b) If you must talk, *ask* questions, do not anwer. And take care to make |> sure your own questions do not contain answers. If you remember to always |> ask a question, you put them on the defensive and confuse them, because they |> think they are there to ask the questions. They may not be fazed, but |> sometimes this is more fun than "no comment." This won't last long; they think they are there to ask the questions and will usually enforce this concept. This might work if you are not a suspect. |> c) Be "fully" cooperative, but insist that everything take place in writing. |> Say, "If you would be prepared to give a *complete* list of your questions |> in writing, I will give them due consideration." This makes them stop and This will only work if you are not a suspect. |> d) If you can slow it down, slow it down. Using writing is just one example |> of this. Slowing it down is almost always in your advantage, and not in |> theirs. 'sTruth. |> e) Scare 'em. It may not work, but tell them you are turning on your |> camcorder or tape recorder while they do what they do -- for your records. |> It may have no weight in evidence, and they may tell you to shut it down |> (legally or not) but it will scare 'em. And it looks bad if they refuse |> you your right to document events. These guys live by documentation and |> paperwork. But they don't like it if they are stepping over the line. This will not happen, if you are a suspect. |> And of course, if you think you are in serious shit, call your lawyer. Ask |> if you are under arrest, and under what charge. If you are under arrest, you |> have a right to call a lawyer (eventually). If you are not, you are free |> to call a lawyer. Once again, the best advice. I write this from experience, having had friends arrested in the past. The locale at the time was Odessa, TX; your mileage may vary. Mark Brown IBM AWD / OSF |"What would I have done if I had been editor? The Good mbrown@osf.org |Perhaps, like George Ernsberger, I would have The Bad uunet!osf!mbrown|found a new job." The Ugly (617) 621-8981 | -- Norman Spinrad, on HYPERION
paul@uxc.cso.uiuc.edu (Paul Pomes - UofIllinois CSO) (09/24/90)
The first thing to do when talking with the police/SS/etc, is DON'T LET
THEM INTO THE HOUSE! Do your talking on the porch, sidewalk, their office,
etc. The SC has held that once the police are in your home, they are free
to walk through the house. Bring a lawyer if the questions are questionable
(so to speak).
/pbp
--
Paul Pomes
UUCP: {att,iuvax,uunet}!uiucuxc!paul Internet, BITNET: paul@uxc.cso.uiuc.edu
US Mail: UofIllinois, CSO, 1304 W Springfield Ave, Urbana, IL 61801-2910brnstnd@kramden.acf.nyu.edu (Dan Bernstein) (09/25/90)
In article <1990Sep24.043757.28285@looking.on.ca> brad@looking.on.ca (Brad Templeton) writes: > e) Scare 'em. It may not work, but tell them you are turning on your > camcorder or tape recorder while they do what they do -- for your records. If you're really desperate, you can get one of those home security systems that (among other things) continuously films various rooms from hidden cameras. Then you'll have a videotape of them telling you to turn off your tape recorder. :-) ---Dan
JBB115@psuvm.psu.edu (09/26/90)
A funny thing happened to me one day when I came home from school! There's
this car in my driveway a Crown Victoria with a siren in the front seat.
Well I speak from my own experience. Say Nothing unless you are cofident of
your abilities to handle yourself. 90% of police work is done because
people rat on each other, and 10% is done cause the police (pick one)
harass, coerce, trick, etc people into admitting what they did. In my case
I talked the whole time rather threateningly too. The cop said "We know you
did it so why don't you admit it it will make it easier on you, your parents, a
nd us and if you make it easier on us the Judge will go easy on you. Well I
stood up and said you dont know Sh*t. And all of this was infront of my
parents and the cop wanted a lie detector and everything when he said this
my dad went crazy. "A Lie Detector?!!!" Well anyway to make a long story
short I didn't take a lie detector I didn't go to jail (I was 18) and I got an
apology out of it...So If you didn't do anything don't say anything orelse say
something unpolite! It will make you feel beter!
Jon