eli@PWS.BULL.COM (Steve Elias) (10/05/90)
> From: TK0JUT2%NIU.BITNET@UICVM.uic.edu yo cowpoke. what's your real name and location, by the way? are you afraid of revealing yourself or are you just an anonymous hacker wannabee? > Seems some of our modem cowpokes out there prefer dismissing issues out of > hand rather than addressing them, does it really? you're the one who failed to directly address any of the points i made, pal. > The Nova program had the opportunity to clarify for the non-computer literate > audience the nature of the hacking community and computer underground. the Nova program was about a specific incident, not about the "hacking community" or the "computer underground". just because they ignored your agenda, does not mean: > It failed. it failed in the eye of one beholder, anyway. > It re-inforced the image of great danger, distorted the hacking > enterprise, and at a time when the Constitutional issues surrounding > computerized information is a crucial legal and public issue, presented a set > of images that would justify such represesive actions as Operation Sun Devil. blaming an episode of NOVA for the silly Wars on Civil Rights is sil-ly. > The point is not that the Nova producers failed to defend the CU, but rather > that--for a Nova program--we should expect something a bit more intellectually > stimulating than an uncritical apologia for hacker-hunting. they told the story of the Cuckoo's Egg. that's plenty for one hour. > and there was not > an iota of evidence from the Nova program that Cliff has had any second > thoughts about the impact of his statements. One person may claim he was > demonstrably wrong. Another may disagree. and others may continue whining about losing their "hacker" name. > This provides the opportunity for > dialogue, but dismissing the issue with a silly "get serious" comment is one > reason why undergraduates should be required to take a few courses in > humanities, especially philosophy. now, that's a good example of typical usenet.whining about others' academic credentials. why not come back with an armchair psychoanalysis, such as the one i submit below? ("unethical hackers who delude themselves...") and who would ever want to take humanities courses, cowpoke Zeno? everyone knows that only the computer courses are important. duh! > The similarities between Cliff and hackers is not necessarily bad, but rather > ironic: Both seem a a bit obsessive, both possess a love of technological > problem solving, both are quite adept at "social engineering" to obtain > information useful to their purpose. don't you see any differences between Cliff and the German hackers? why do you concentrate on the surface similarities? i hear an axe grinding from somewhere on bitnet. >Is "liberating" equipment from offices any more or less > benign than entering a university mainframe without permission? it's infinitely more benign, silly rabbit. why do you keep harping on this *really dopey* comparison? are there other readers out there who think that "liberating printers" and moving them around the lab was anything but benign? please respond! > You may think > it is, but the fact remains that there is considerable room for honest > intellectual disagreement. there would certainly be disagreement from the unethical hacker types who want to keep breaking into computers while deluding themselves into thinking their actions are "benign". > Also keep in mind that Hess was not a typical > hacker, and Stoll made a number of global statements about hackers, not just > Hess. if you want to call yourself a hacker, that's your problem. the word means something different now than it did ten years ago. get used to it ! > It's hardly "whining" to complain about misuse of the term hacker, and it's > hardly "old news," it's not old news? where the heck have you been? and stop whining about it, dammit! you sound like the unix twits who are whining about having their "wizard" word eliminated from usenet. > at least not to the law enforcement types who define the > term as an illegal activity. Check out the indictments from Sun Devil and > you'll see how the meaning of the word can be used in a highly prejudicial > way. just accept the way the language has changed, bud. find a different word to describe yourself if you don't consider yourself a criminal, but just an honest and ethical computer cowpoke. > Many of us, including me, would have acted just Stoll acted in tracking down > his invader. BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA !! ... derisive laughter. i find this difficult to believe. instead, i believe it is most unlikely that you or anyone else reading this would have had the tenacity and imagination necessary to "act just like Stoll acted". this implicit comparison of yourself to Stoll is also obnoxious -- you are deluding yourself and are letting your ego show (again). first you compare Stoll to the German hackers, and now you compare yourself to Stoll. why not leave Stoll out of it and just compare yourself directly to the German hackers? that might be more appropriate. > Hopefully, however, most of us would also reflect on the ethical > and other issues raised during a period when technology challenges > conventional notions of privacy, freedeom of speech, proprietary information, > and other neat stuff that was *totally* ignored in the Nova program. this subject is important and it would have been nice for NOVA to at least mention some of these serious "frontier" issues. there we agree. it was still a fine NOVA episode, imho. the 'frontier issues' we talk about in this newsgroup are important enough for another program, or hopefully an entire series about civil rights and other neat stuff on the frontier. information. the final frontier. peace. /eli
gl8f@astsun7.astro.Virginia.EDU (Greg Lindahl) (10/05/90)
In article <16476@know.pws.bull.com> eli@PWS.BULL.COM (Steve Elias) writes: >> From: TK0JUT2%NIU.BITNET@UICVM.uic.edu > >what's your real name and location, by the way? are you afraid of >revealing yourself or are you just an anonymous hacker wannabee? Please, let's not have silly insults. Email to Mr. Elias revealed that he has no idea where he can find a Bitnet nodelist. If you don't understand something, don't insult it. Ask a question. Learn. -- "Restraint, hell. I'm just too fucking busy." -- Bill Wisner
eli@PWS.BULL.COM (Steve Elias) (10/06/90)
Mr. Lindahl writes: > Please, let's not have silly insults. Email to Mr. Elias revealed that > he has no idea where he can find a Bitnet nodelist. ask me some more questions and maybe you'll discover other things that i don't know! if you can name three other things that i don't know by midnight tonight, you'll win a free Ginsu Knife! > If you don't understand something, don't insult it. it seems to me that some readers fail to understand Cliff's quest for the Cuckoo hacker, yet they persist in insulting it. > Ask a question. Learn. i asked many questions of the bitnet person. i'd like to learn who s/he is and where s/he comes from in the physical sense. this is yet another thing that i don't know, Mr. Lindahl! add it to the long list... i also asked you, Mr. Lindahl, where to find a Bitnet nodelist, but you replied with insulting email. whatever. ca va. may peace and ethics be with you all in the electronic frontier and beyond. /eli
jet@karazm.math.uh.edu (J. Eric Townsend) (10/06/90)
In article <16476@know.pws.bull.com> Steve Elias <eli@PWS.BULL.COM> writes: >> From: TK0JUT2%NIU.BITNET@UICVM.uic.edu >what's your real name and location, by the way? are you afraid of >revealing yourself or are you just an anonymous hacker wannabee? Jeesh. Show your ignorance in private, would you? That's only *the* tk0jut2 -- source of cud, to begin with. >are there other readers out there who think that "liberating printers" >and moving them around the lab was anything but benign? please respond! I don't think Stoll had any malicious intent, but if any two-bit systems admin wanna-be ever "liberates" any equipment from my office s/he's in deep shit. As simple as that. Would you mind if I "liberated" your car/truck/bicycle/horse while you weren't using it? -- J. Eric Townsend Internet: jet@uh.edu Bitnet: jet@UHOU Systems Manager - University of Houston Dept. of Mathematics - (713) 749-2120 EastEnders list: eastender@karazm.math.uh.edu Skate UNIX(r)
sean@unix.cis.pitt.edu (Sean R Owens) (10/07/90)
In article <1990Oct6.051320.2014@lavaca.uh.edu> jet@karazm.math.uh.edu (J. Eric Townsend) writes: >I don't think Stoll had any malicious intent, but if any two-bit >systems admin wanna-be ever "liberates" any equipment from my office >s/he's in deep shit. As simple as that. Would you mind if I "liberated" >your car/truck/bicycle/horse while you weren't using it? Would you mind if I "liberated" your office chair while you weren't using it? I'd be bothered if someone didn't put it back. I'd be worried if I thought that whomever liberated it were fumble fingered / technically incompetent. Would you mind if someone "liberated" a pen from your desk? I might feel a bit of an invasion of privacy was going on but I doubt anyone would pay me much mind, other than to not choose me when next they went to "liberate" something. Keep things in perspective. Sean Owens sean@hpb.cis.pitt.edu P.S. Which does not mean that there aren't instances where such midnight requisitioning might be out of line, for instance if a hard drive was borrowed that had sensitive or private information on it.