m.tiernan@pro-angmar.UUCP (Michael Tiernan) (12/25/90)
Hello all. I'm rather new to the EFF discussions and am quite pleased to see
the interest that is currently out there for it. I've got a question. I'm
wondering if the selling of phone listings (like addresses) has been discussed
and or covered? I have a private phone line who's number is one of my
closeest secrets. I cherish being able to sit at home and call out on this
line when my other line is ringing off the hook. However, recently, I've been
getting "You need to buy......" phone calls on it. Damned annoying! I always
figured it was a case of creative dialing that got them to my number. That is
until MCI (Whom I do not do business with at all.) called me BY NAME! On my
private line. I quickly pieced the puzzle together, I had called a dial a
joke line 4-5 months ago which was a number serviced exclusively by MCI. When
they service the line, they get your phone number and !viola! the have my
private number. In turn, they've sold it as part of a list! What I'm now
doing (because the calls haven't bothered me since I work during the day) is
warning people that this horrendus invasion of privacy is being perpetrated on
us with no recourse.
"Don't let this happen to you!" :)
<< MCT >>
GEnie : M.Tiernan
AppleLinkPE : M Tiernan or BCS Mike
Internet : pro-angmar!m.tiernan@alphalpha.com
UUCP : ...!uunet!alphalpha!pro-angmar!m.tiernan
"God isn't dead, he's only missing in action."
- Phil Ochsrfarris@rfengr.com (Rick Farris) (12/26/90)
In article <9.security.eff@pro-angmar> m.tiernan@pro-angmar.UUCP (Michael Tiernan) writes: > I have a private phone line who's number is one of my > closeest secrets... However, recently, I've been getting > "You need to buy......" phone calls on it...I quickly pieced > the puzzle together, I had called a dial a joke line 4-5 > months ago which was a number serviced exclusively by MCI. > When they service the line, they get your phone number and > !viola! the have my private number. Here in PacBell territory calling line id won't start up until October of 1991, but I'm already training myself to *never* dial out on my private line. I guess that is one of the ECM (electronic counter measures) tactics that we're all going to have to learn when CLASS features take effect. Personally I'm looking forward to all the call screening gadgets and software. Finally, we techies will be able to fight back! -- Rick Farris RF Engineering POB M Del Mar, CA 92014 voice (619) 259-6793 rfarris@rfengr.com ...!ucsd!serene!rfarris serenity bbs 259-7757
glass@portia.Stanford.EDU (Brett Glass) (12/26/90)
Believe it or not, the California PUC's tariffs allow your local phone company to disclose your name, address, and (unlisted) phone number to any long distance carrier "for billing purposes." The carrier can then use this information to send junk mail. And, believe it or not, there is NOTHING in the tariffs that prevents them from selling the list! AT&T recently sent me a product solicitation with my unlisted phone number printed right on it. I wrote Pacific Telesis and gave them hell about it. They essentially said, "The tariffs allow us to do that, sir, so we did it." Perhaps a lawsuit is in order? <BG>
abrams@cs.columbia.edu (Steven Abrams) (12/26/90)
In article <1990Dec25.204943.2722@rfengr.com> rfarris@rfengr.com (Rick Farris) writes: [About obtaining the phone number of a caller to a commercial] [pay-by-minute 900 type phone call] Here in PacBell territory calling line id won't start up until October of 1991, but I'm already training myself to *never* dial out on my private line. Unfortunately, when one dials a 900, 800, etc... type phone number (particularly the 900 numbers) the caller data is available to the owner of the line (on a monthly basis) and this has nothing to do with Caller ID. It is used as part of the billing information by MCI. They obviously know who makes the cal (otherwise they can't bill you). Also, the service provider wants to have the list of callers to be sure that they get their fair share of income. It also allows them to do direct marketing using the phone numbers of these people. Even if you block Caller ID from your phone (if that option becomes available) you won't be able to block service providers from knowing who their customers are with these 900 phone numbers. ~~~Steve -- /************************************************* * *Steven Abrams abrams@cs.columbia.edu * **************************************************/ #include <std/dumquote.h> #include <std/disclaimer.h>
lear@turbo.bio.net (Eliot) (12/27/90)
glass@portia.Stanford.EDU (Brett Glass) writes: >Believe it or not, the California PUC's tariffs allow your local phone >company to disclose your name, address, and (unlisted) phone number to >any long distance carrier "for billing purposes." >The carrier can then use this information to send junk mail. And, believe >it or not, there is NOTHING in the tariffs that prevents them from selling >the list! [...] >Perhaps a lawsuit is in order? The question in my mind is, `Who do you sue'? I doubt a lawsuit against PacBell will gain you anything. At some point, real soon now, they're supposed to stop shipping long distance carrier bills with your local bill. This means that the long distance carriers will require billing information. If they actually DISCLOSE private listings to a third party, then I could definitely smell a lawsuit against the offending carrier. And this is all a legacy from the days of `/bin/one`, because individuals may not have direct agreements with the long distance carrier. -- Happy Holidays! Eliot Lear [lear@turbo.bio.net]
glass@portia.Stanford.EDU (Brett Glass) (12/27/90)
Yes, Pacific Bell actually discloses full name, address, and phone number information to any long distance carrier you happen to use. This is true whether you use a Calling Card, a pay phone, or your own phone -- or if you call an 800 or 900 number handled by the carrier. Seems to me that this defeats the purpose of having an unlisted number; hence the reason for a potential lawsuit. The California Constitution guarantees a right to privacy.... <BG>
wizz.trm@pro-harvest.cts.com (The Wizard) (12/27/90)
In-Reply-To: message from glass@portia.Stanford.EDU > Perhaps a lawsuit is in order? If you have the time/money to fight a phone company forever, go for it man... wIzZ! _____________________________________________________________________________ | ProLine: wizz.trm@pro-harvest | Edward Scissorhands:The only guy Internet: wizz.trm@pro-harvest.cts.com | in creation who can get the bra UUCP: crash!pro-harvest!wizz.trm | and panties off, but just can't ARPA:crash!pro-harvest!wizz.trm@nosc.mil | go any further. _________________________________________|___________________________________
jonl@pro-smof.cts.com (Jon Lebkowsky) (12/27/90)
In-Reply-To: message from m.tiernan@pro-angmar.UUCP The phone company gives me a fairly complete phone list every year, for free. It's the phone book, of course, and if you're listed, you're liable to be keyed into somebody's list! (Realtors here in Austin will download specific neighborhoods from the Realcomp list, which is based on very-public tax records for the city. They'll look up the phone numbers and add 'em to the list, so that they have a complete database for any neighborhood they wish to devour.)
zane@ddsw1.MCS.COM (Sameer Parekh) (12/30/90)
In article <6550@crash.cts.com> jonl@pro-smof.cts.com (Jon Lebkowsky) writes: >In-Reply-To: message from m.tiernan@pro-angmar.UUCP > >The phone company gives me a fairly complete phone list every year, for free. >It's the phone book, of course, and if you're listed, you're liable to be >keyed into somebody's list! > >(Realtors here in Austin will download specific neighborhoods from the >Realcomp list, which is based on very-public tax records for the city. They'll >look up the phone numbers and add 'em to the list, so that they have a >complete database for any neighborhood they wish to devour.) Could someone take a scanner and scan the phone book into a computer and then use some sort of OCR and then they can put that into a database. . . Then if you call someone (and they have caller-ID) they will know your name and address too? -- zane@ddsw1.MCS.COM
jim@ferkel.ucsb.edu (Jim Lick) (12/31/90)
Just thought I'd add a little to this conversation wrt how long info is kept
by long distance carriers, and who they are willing to give the information
to. Last June I moved just around the corner. I called up the phone
company about the change, and told them I wanted the same numbers, same
LD carrier (US Sprint), etc. (As a side note, all they wanted to prove my
identity is my SSN. Something not too difficult to find these days. In
fact, a friend still has service in the name of a past roommate and only has
to remember the SSN to make any changes. I'm fairly certain you could set
up service under a false name and SSN without anyone complaining.)
Anyways, all went fairly well, but GTE neglected to tell US Sprint about the
address change, and because the post office did it's usual lackluster job of
forwarding, I missed out on two months of bills. Eventually US Sprint
called to find out why I wasn't paying, and I gave them my new address, and
all was set. However, I still didn't have those two months of bills.
My girlfriend is sure she made some calls during that billing period, and
insists on paying me back. I kept telling her to just forget about it, but
a week or so ago she called up US Sprint without telling me and requested
copies of the bills. She didn't have to provide any information at all
other than my name, and the phone number being billed. They DID send it to
me, but I wouldn't doubt that someone could provide some other address
without too much trouble and get all kinds of billing information.
Now, for all you 'the sky is falling' folk out there, please don't think
that this justifies your 'police state' tactics to control information.
Rather, I like Brad's approach with his classes of privacy. I think that
those people who want a certain class of privacy should enforce this either
with legislation (but only that which doesn't affect my right to have less
privacy) or through contract.
It does go to show something that most people should come to realize.
Information is incredibly easy to get. I'm not concerned about it. I have
enough backbone to deal with people calling me on the phone, or getting mail
I didn't ask for. But for those of you who are frightened by such things,
you should be aware about this.
Jim Lick
Work: University of California | Home: 6657 El Colegio #24
Santa Barbara | Isla Vista, CA 93117-4280
Dept. of Mechanical Engr. | (805) 968-0189 voice/msg
2311 Engr II Building | (805) 968-1239 data
(805) 893-4113 | (805) 968-2734 fax
jim@ferkel.ucsb.edu | Soon: jim@cave.sba.ca.us craig@com50.c2s.mn.org (Craig Wilson) (01/02/91)
In article <1990Dec30.050234.5982@ddsw1.MCS.COM> zane@ddsw1.MCS.COM (Sameer Parekh) writes: > Could someone take a scanner and scan the phone book into a computer >and then use some sort of OCR and then they can put that into a database. . . >Then if you call someone (and they have caller-ID) they will know your name >and address too? >-- >zane@ddsw1.MCS.COM They probably could, but why? U.S. West will sell the telephone book electronically, now. Based upon how much you want to pay, you can get a little information or a lot. You can keep your list current by just ordering new connects, occasionally. Actually, scanning the phone book might be a copyright violation whereas buying the lists from the phone company will grant you certain usage rights. /craig
learn@igloo.scum.com (Bill HMRP Vajk) (01/03/91)
In article <24699@com50.c2s.mn.org> Craig Wilson writes: > Actually, scanning the phone book might be a copyright violation > whereas buying the lists from the phone company will grant you certain usage > rights. This brings up several questions. The first is simply whenther or not the information contained in telephone books doesn't actually become general knowledge, something like public domain software being free for use. I just looked at the Chicago white pages directory. The front cover and the following 44 pages (including some teleco advertising) have a copyright notice at the bottom of each page. The last two pages are copyright by Donnelley, and the Illinois Bell ad on the inside of the back cover is copyright. There is no notice I could find regarding the copyright status for the pages listing names, addresses, and phone numbers. There was a time when the phone books all carried a notice that the book was the property of the telephone company, and placing any unauthorized cover over it was illegal and subject to penalties of the law. Even then I thought that was viewed by many much as the admonitions against removing the material tags from sofa cushions (kid rips it off, and mom sews it back on so the police won't come to march little Jimmy away to jail.) Recently this area was rife with alternative "community" phone books published by folks who had nothing to do with the phone company. They supported themselves by selling their own yellow pages advertising, including the front and back covers. I haven't seen one in several years. I once bought an ad on the back cover for one of the nearby communities. Illinois Bell advises in the first 44 pages that they do sell subscriber lists to firms engaged in marketing, but that simply by requesting it, your name and number can be removed from the sold lists. Bill Vajk
cyberoid@milton.u.washington.edu (Robert Jacobson) (01/04/91)
Long distance carriers in California are similarly covered by the Telephone Privacy Act. While PacBell is permitted to give them calling information for billing purposes, these companies, like PacBell, are not permitted to use the information for purposes other than their own internal business -- billing, communications with customers, etc. If one of them violates the Telephone Privacy Act, the PUC and the courts are empowered to act. But first a customer has to stop growsing and take legal action. Bob Jacobson
peterm@sumax.seattleu.edu (Peter Marshall) (01/04/91)
How's about a cite and/or further info about this law. It may be particularly of interest in our own beloved state of WA, where IXC, etc. use of personal info may soon become a emerging issue at the state PUC. Thanks. Peter Marshall
glass@portia.Stanford.EDU (Brett Glass) (01/04/91)
> Long distance carriers in California are similarly covered by the > Telephone Privacy Act. While PacBell is permitted to give them > calling information for billing purposes, these companies, like > PacBell, are not permitted to use the information for purposes > other than their own internal business -- billing, communications > with customers, etc. If one of them violates the Telephone > Privacy Act, the PUC and the courts are empowered to act. But > first a customer has to stop growsing and take legal action. Bob, what are the basic provisions of the Telephone Privacy Act? Is there a way to get a copy without extensive legwork? Is it available in digitized form? <BG>
cyberoid@milton.u.washington.edu (Robert Jacobson) (01/05/91)
The Telephone Privacy Act is in the Public Utilities Code of the State of California, a copy of which is available in most law libraries at firms or universities, and at all central public libraries. It's about two pages in length, quite short. There is a corresponding cable privacy provision, not specified as such but actually the model for the telephone act, in either the Civil Code or the Government Code (probably the latter). Also, there are extensive provisions governing transfer of information between and among health providers and insurance firms (but riddled by amendments over the years); and others pertaining to state agencies (similar problems). Legislation to create a data administrator was often talked about, but the cutbacks in legislative staff now taking place in California will pretty well dim any chances of that happening. As the staff leaves, the Legislature in effect loses its memory and motivation. Bob Jacobson
cyberoid@milton.u.washington.edu (Robert Jacobson) (01/05/91)
The Caller ID controversy has prompted the telephone companies to come forth with another claim, i.e., that telephone _numbers_, if not names and addresses, are their property. You can understand how this would be of interest, if numbers become the key to market opportunities. Bob Jacobson
new@ee.udel.edu (Darren New) (01/05/91)
In article <13769@milton.u.washington.edu> cyberoid@milton.u.washington.edu (Robert Jacobson) writes: >The Caller ID controversy has prompted the telephone companies to come >forth with another claim, i.e., that telephone _numbers_, if not names >and addresses, are their property. No problem. Who owns the association between a particular name and a particular number? I would say the customer, since she/he paid for it. Hence, selling mailing lists would be ungood. -- Darren -- --- Darren New --- Grad Student --- CIS --- Univ. of Delaware --- ----- Network Protocols, Graphics, Programming Languages, Formal Description Techniques (esp. Estelle), Coffee, Amigas ----- =+=+=+ Let GROPE be an N-tuple where ... +=+=+=
jonl@pro-smof.cts.com (Jon Lebkowsky) (01/07/91)
In-Reply-To: message from craig@com50.c2s.mn.org They COPYRIGHT the phone book? Gee, I guess they do....I never thought about it before. I've worked for companies that maintain and compile mailing lists, and transfer them from one format to another...it's a big business, and their lots of ways to get the info. You wouldn't have to scan the phone book, for instance: if you wanted that database badly enough, you could just hire the data entry folks and enter character by character.
johne@hp-vcd.HP.COM (John Eaton) (01/15/91)
<<< < if you wanted that database badly enough, you could just hire the < data entry folks and enter character by character. ---------- Which is why the phone company drops in an occasional bogus name to see who is copying. If you are going to be sleazly then go all the way. Place an Ad in the paper for high paying data entry jobs. Have the respondents fill out an application and take a typing test that consists of copying a section of the phone book into a computer. When finished send them away with a "don't call us,we'll call you". Merge all the files and you have your own phone book. John Eaton !hpvcfs1!johne