dalamb@umiacs.umd.edu (David Lamb) (01/31/91)
The recent discussions about privacy prompt this question: Use of a single "person identifier" like social security number make it easier to correlate different computer databases, which might lead to more violations of privacy. I have a very vague memory that SSNs (and Social Insurance Numbers in Canada) were supposed to be "for social security/insurance purposes only"; that anybody who pays you "income" (employers, companies paying you dividents, banks paying you interest) were allowed to demand it from you, but that others weren't. Since those naive days I've encountered health insurance providers who use it as your ID, Universities (maryland) who use it as ID, grocery stores who demand it for cheque cashing cards... Is it legal for all these people to do this? Did somebody change the rules, or was my "vague memory" always wrong? is anyone else upset about this? -- David Alex Lamb internet: dalamb@umiacs.umd.edu
johnl@iecc.cambridge.ma.us (John R. Levine) (01/31/91)
In article <29736@mimsy.umd.edu> dalamb@umiacs.umd.edu (David Lamb) writes: >Is it legal for all these people to [require your SSN all over the place]? >Did somebody change the rules, or was my "vague memory" always wrong? > is anyone else upset about this? Lots of us are upset about it, but the legal situation is not great. There are in general no laws regarding the use of the SSN by non-government organizations. You are free not to give it, and they are free not to do business with you. Some states have laws, e.g. there appears to be a state law here in Massachusetts that prohibits banks from using the SSN as the primary key on bank accounts or ATM cards. For government use, whenever they ask for your SSN they are required to tell you why they ask and what will happen if you don't give it. In general, it's supposed to be required only for tax purposes, but there are exceptions to "in general" through which you could drive a supertanker. Many states absolutely require your SSN for a drivers license, and a lot of them insist on putting it on your license. Here in Mass. they ask but on request (and without giving you a hard time) the license has a "state" number which is the letter S followed by 9 digits and is very handy for confusing droids who want to type the number into computers that know that the number contains only digits. Personally, I have developed amnesia. I don't know my SSN. On the rare occasions when it's needed for a W-4 or W-9, I can go home and look it up. People think I'm strange, but I get surprisingly little hassle. In many cases the mandatory number is only mandatory in the mind of the clerk asking for it. -- John R. Levine, IECC, POB 349, Cambridge MA 02238, +1 617 864 9650 johnl@iecc.cambridge.ma.us, {ima|spdcc|world}!iecc!johnl " #(ps,#(rs))' " - L. P. Deutsch and C. N. Mooers
ellis@motcid.UUCP (John T Ellis) (01/31/91)
In article <29736@mimsy.umd.edu> dalamb@umiacs.umd.edu (David Lamb) writes: >The recent discussions about privacy prompt this question: >Use of a single "person identifier" like social security number make it >easier to correlate different computer databases, which might lead to >more violations of privacy. [text deleted] >Is it legal for all these people to do this? Did somebody change the >rules, or was my "vague memory" always wrong? is anyone else upset about >this? About two years ago, I wrote a report on social security number fraud and the computer. The report basically outlined the "Big Brother" syndrom that was becoming more and more prevalent as the social security number became the most popular key field for computer databases. From my investigation, the following information came to light. 1. The social security number was (and still is) intended to be used by only the social security office. 2. With the advent of the computer, the IRS realized that with one number, record keeping was made simpler. They therefore petitioned congress and received permission to begin requiring the SS# on all forms. This then led to the banking industry and employers using it. Note: Before the use of the SS# as the taxpayer ID, individuals were issued seperate numbers for this purpose. 3. Currently, it is NOT illegal for anyone to ask you for your SS#. However, it IS illegal for them to refuse you service if you do not give it to them. If you encounter any problems with this, you are asked to contact the nearest SS office and report the offence. Personally, I am frightened by the present and future prospects of the use and abuse of the SS#. However, in order to live in today's society, (ie. use the services available) I must allow my SS# to be used. Therefore, I am very discriminate with how I use this number. I have removed the number from my Drivers License and checks. I no longer write down the number for credit card companies, check cashing cards or other "consumer" services. Rather, I give them a credit card number. Hope this helps. -- -------------------------------+------------------------------------------------ John T. Ellis 708-632-7857 | To YOU I'm an atheist; Motorola Cellular | To GOD I'm the Loyal Opposition. motcid!ellis@chg.mcd.mot.com | -- Woody Allen
schultz@motcid.UUCP (Rob Schultz) (02/01/91)
In <4611@orchid12.UUCP> ellis@motcid.UUCP (John T Ellis) writes: >Personally, I am frightened by the present and future prospects of the use and >abuse of the SS#. However, in order to live in today's society, (ie. use the >services available) I must allow my SS# to be used. Therefore, I am very >discriminate with how I use this number. I have removed the number from my >Drivers License and checks. I no longer write down the number for credit card >companies, check cashing cards or other "consumer" services. Rather, I give >them a credit card number. Whoa, John!! You give out your credit card numbers when not making a purchase with them? Most merchants in this area do not force you to give your numbers, if you are sufficiently adamant about it. In fact, I have even stopped carying credit cards with me. When I make a purchase by check, and they ask for a CC, I tell them I do not carry them, because if I carry them, I use them. They usually smile at that, and ask if I have any other forms of ID. Naturally, I show them my Motorola ID, library card, Blockbuster video club card, health club card, any thing else which has my name and possibly address on it. Generally speaking, I do not give out any of my personal information. I am loathe to give out my phone number, although since my number is not unlisted, it is easy to get. My checks have my name, address, and bank account and routing information on them. No phone, no SSN, no CC#'s, etc. -- Rob Schultz +1 708 632 2875 Motorola General Systems Sector schultz@motcid.rtsg.mot.com 3209 North Wilke Road ...!uunet!motcid!schultz Arlington Heights, IL 60004 All appropriate disclaimers apply.
rwaters@bbn.com (Rolland Waters) (02/01/91)
In article <longnumber> johnl@iecc.cambridge.ma.us (John R. Levine) writes: > You are free not to give it, and they are free not to do > business with you. They are not free not to do business with you? Can you give me an example, including under what law? Maybe when you're filing a credit or bank application, but not otherwise. There should be laws in most states to prevent businesses from refusing customers on arbitrary grounds; these laws largely came out of anti-discrimination efforts. >For government use, whenever they ask for your SSN they are required to tell >you why they ask and what will happen if you don't give it. In general, it's >supposed to be required only for tax purposes, but there are exceptions to >"in general" through which you could drive a supertanker. Only too true. > Many states > absolutely require your SSN for a drivers license, and a lot of them insist > on putting it on your license. Here in Mass. they ask but on request (and > without giving you a hard time) the license has a "state" number which is the > letter S followed by 9 digits and is very handy for confusing droids who want > to type the number into computers that know that the number contains only > digits. I'd be curious, which states? As a gov't institution, aren't they prevented from *requiring* your SSN? Agreed, you'll run into droids who'll think you're required to give it to them, but droids have supervisors. [Although, when you're in the middle of nowhere, stopped by the Arizona State Police, droids don't always have supervisors :-( ] Agreed, when I got Mass. to delete my SSN from my driver's license, they were quite nice about it. >Personally, I have developed amnesia. I don't know my SSN. Agreed; although misremembering is sometimes easier. They get a number and are happy. Rolland
tighe@convex.com (Mike Tighe) (02/01/91)
In article <62440@bbn.BBN.COM> rwaters@vax.bbn.com (Rolland Waters) writes: > In article <longnumber> johnl@iecc.cambridge.ma.us (John R. Levine) writes: >> You are free not to give it, and they are free not to do >> business with you. > > They are not free not to do business with you? Can you give me an > example, including under what law? I think that was the point. There is no law to prevent them from not doing business with you. I had a cable TV company refuse to provide service without a SSN. I wasn't left with much of a choice as to where to take my business either. I could go on and on with examples... The one advantage the customer has is that almost all of the places that require it (but do not have a need for it), have no way to verify if it is valid. So, if your amnesia makes you forget a few digits, or transpose them, or make up an entirely bogus number, they do not know it. >> Many states absolutely require your SSN for a drivers license, and a lot of >> them insist on putting it on your license. > I'd be curious, which states? As a gov't institution, aren't they > prevented from *requiring* your SSN? In my experience, I have been required to give it in Virginia and New Jersey. Both states put it on my DL. In fact, NJ wouldn't even let me register my car without it. The law only affects Federal Agencies I believe. -- ----------------------------------------------------------- Mike Tighe, Internet: tighe@convex.com Voice: (214) 497-4206 Fax: (214) 497-4550 -----------------------------------------------------------
greg@travis.cica.indiana.edu (Gregory TRAVIS) (02/01/91)
rwaters@bbn.com (Rolland Waters) writes: >In article <longnumber> johnl@iecc.cambridge.ma.us (John R. Levine) writes: >> You are free not to give it, and they are free not to do >> business with you. >They are not free not to do business with you? Can you give me an >example, including under what law? Maybe when you're filing a credit >or bank application, but not otherwise. There should be laws in most >states to prevent businesses from refusing customers on arbitrary >grounds; these laws largely came out of anti-discrimination efforts. I think John is right - a business IS allowed to discriminate on seemingly "arbitrary" grounds. One of the primary rights of business is the right to deny service to those with whom one does not wish to transact. You've seen those "No shirt, no shoes, no service" signs haven't you? It's not illegal for a business to be paranoid. If they feel it's too risky to do business with someone who won't provide them with adequate identification they can, and should be allowed to, refuse to do business. Every try and get an apartment in New York? Landlords always size up an applicant and reject those they do not want occupying their building. Now, before I get torched, let me say that I do NOT support the use of the SSN as identification and I routinely refuse to give it to those who have no right to it; like the supermarket, the DMV, and my University. I have been denied service because of this, but the occasion is infrequent in the extreme. Most businesses are 1) Sensitive to the SSN issue and 2) Aware that ones SSN is a very unreliable method of identification and verification. It gives no info about where a person resides (unlike a telephone # or, even, a seperate driver's license #) and is easily faked. I believe that the so-called "anti-discrimination" laws make it illegal to refuse to sell based upon race because such a refusal violates laws regarding interstate commerce. I haven't read the law in quite some time, but I recall that the lawmakers had a very difficult time of a) Getting around a business' fundamental right to refuse service and b) Making the law a Federal one. The only thing they could come up with was the legal equivalent of a massive kludge which equates racially restricted commerce with the impediment of interstate commerce, which is against Federal law. >> Many states >> absolutely require your SSN for a drivers license, and a lot of them insist >> on putting it on your license. Here in Mass. they ask but on request (and >> without giving you a hard time) the license has a "state" number which is the >> letter S followed by 9 digits and is very handy for confusing droids who want >> to type the number into computers that know that the number contains only >> digits. You can always refuse this kind of bullshit. State agencies are NOT allowed by law to refuse you service because you will not divulge your SSN, unlike private agencies. If it's not necessary for a tax/revenue purpose you can deny it and they MUST service you. -- Gregory R. Travis Indiana University, Bloomington IN 47405 greg@cica.cica.indiana.edu Center for Innovative Computer Applications Disclaimer: I heart hate email.
greg@travis.cica.indiana.edu (Gregory TRAVIS) (02/01/91)
tighe@convex.com (Mike Tighe) writes: >In my experience, I have been required to give it in Virginia and New >Jersey. Both states put it on my DL. In fact, NJ wouldn't even let me >register my car without it. They wouldn't allow you to register your car because said registration is subject to a variety of taxes. Hence the SSN is required. You should have protested the SSN for your *license* - that is out and out illegal. I have not had any trouble getting them to expunge traces of SSNs from my license record. They usually rant and rave for a while, but if you're persistent they relent. >The law only affects Federal Agencies I believe. And state. -- Gregory R. Travis Indiana University, Bloomington IN 47405 greg@cica.cica.indiana.edu Center for Innovative Computer Applications Disclaimer: I heart hate email.
tighe@convex.com (Mike Tighe) (02/01/91)
In article <greg.665365561@travis> greg@travis.cica.indiana.edu (Gregory TRAVIS) writes: >tighe@convex.com (Mike Tighe) writes: > >>In my experience, I have been required to give it in Virginia and New >>Jersey. Both states put it on my DL. In fact, NJ wouldn't even let me >>register my car without it. > >You should have protested the SSN for your *license* - that is out and >out illegal. Well, I did question it (this was in Va, 1986). They then provided me with a written document specifying the statute, and another paragraph which stated that it was lawful. They then said if I didn't wish to provide it, I didn't have to, but could I please step out of the way so that they could process the next person in line. And this is the basic problem. Sure, I could have left and gotten a lawyer, etc. but five years later it would still be tied up in court, and I don't have the time or money for that. >>The law only affects Federal Agencies I believe. >And state. Well, I was a Federal Employee, so I am aware of the Privacy Act, which is only relevant to Federal Agencies. What law is it that prevents State Agencies from using the SSN? -- ----------------------------------------------------------- Mike Tighe, Internet: tighe@convex.com Voice: (214) 497-4206 Fax: (214) 497-4550 -----------------------------------------------------------
jet@karazm.math.uh.edu ("J. Eric Townsend") (02/01/91)
In article <4611@orchid12.UUCP> motcid!ellis@chg.mcd.mot.com (John T Ellis) writes: > 3. Currently, it is NOT illegal for anyone to ask you for your SS#. > However, it IS illegal for them to refuse you service if you do > not give it to them. If you encounter any problems with this, you > are asked to contact the nearest SS office and report the offence. Can anyone show me case law, or a law on the books that says this? I tried to open a *non-interest* checking account at a bank w/o my SSN (forgot it), and they said "no". I've also had to argue with video store people over the same issue. I'd love to be able to say "Law <foo> says otherwise. Refuse me service and I win the suit, guaranteed." -- J. Eric Townsend - jet@uh.edu - bitnet: jet@UHOU - vox: (713) 749-2120 "It is the cunning of form to veil itself continually in the evidence of content. It is the cunning of the code to veil itself and to produce itself in the obviousness of value." -- Baudrillard
llama@eleazar.dartmouth.edu (Joe Francis) (02/01/91)
In article <greg.665364497@travis> Gregory TRAVIS writes: >You can always refuse this kind of bullshit. State agencies are NOT allowed >by law to refuse you service because you will not divulge your SSN, unlike >private agencies. If it's not necessary for a tax/revenue purpose you can >deny it and they MUST service you. This is false. The Tax Reform Act of 1976 grants states permision to require SSN's for vehicle registration and drivers licenses, local and state tax purposes, state welfare programs, and the parent locator service. The Deficit Reduction Act of 1984 required banks to report interest keyed to the SSN (and requires Banks to obtain your SSN from you). The Tax Reform Act of 1986 requires parents to show SSN's for children over five who are claimed as dependents. The above is paraphrased from "Your Right To Privacy", 1990 by the ACLU, Southern Illinois University Press. There is a lot of misinformation on SSN's in this and other newsgroups. I suggest you and others read this book. It has, by my estimate, some 400 footnotes referencing legislation, case law, and many other sources. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- "Read My Lips: No Nude Texans!" - George Bush clearing up a misunderstanding
floydf@iphase.UUCP (Floyd Ferguson ENG) (02/02/91)
An interesting side example is the use of the SSN as the base for the actual key number. In the state of Texas the Medicare ID used by Blue Cross / Blue Shield is the SSN with an alpha character either prepended or appended (right now I can't remember which). Is this mechanism for deriving a new id from the SSN one of those loop-holes in the fed-regs restricting the use of the number? Is this new id considered a SSN anymore? Incidentally, I have no idea what the implications of a false number would be. Floyd Ferguson uunet!iphase!floydf
elisem@nuchat.sccsi.com (elise mahaffey) (02/07/91)
In article <1991Feb1.034754.24237@lavaca.uh.edu> jet@karazm.math.uh.edu ("J. Eric Townsend") writes: >In article <4611@orchid12.UUCP> motcid!ellis@chg.mcd.mot.com (John T Ellis) writes: >> 3. Currently, it is NOT illegal for anyone to ask you for your SS#. >> However, it IS illegal for them to refuse you service if you do >> not give it to them. If you encounter any problems with this, you >> are asked to contact the nearest SS office and report the offence. > >Can anyone show me case law, or a law on the books that says this? I tried >to open a *non-interest* checking account at a bank w/o my SSN (forgot it), >and they said "no". I've also had to argue with video store people over >the same issue. > >I'd love to be able to say "Law <foo> says otherwise. Refuse me service >and I win the suit, guaranteed." > >-- >J. Eric Townsend - jet@uh.edu - bitnet: jet@UHOU - vox: (713) 749-2120 >"It is the cunning of form to veil itself continually in the evidence >of content. It is the cunning of the code to veil itself and to produce >itself in the obviousness of value." -- Baudrillard Possibly one reason for your troubles of NOT having a SS# at a bank is that the banking industry uses the SSN# as a form of TAX-ID# that way, they can instantly know if your account is bogus or not, or possibly later in the future, know that you may/maynot be using their bank for "legal" purposes. But the SSN is vary important for tax purposes and YTD interest and such. -- Network Information Access -------------------------- elisem@nuchat.sccsi.com ...!uunet!nuchat!elisem
jfw@neuro (John F. Whitehead) (02/16/91)
In article <4611@orchid12.UUCP> motcid!ellis@chg.mcd.mot.com (John T Ellis) writes: > 3. Currently, it is NOT illegal for anyone to ask you for your SS#. > However, it IS illegal for them to refuse you service if you do > not give it to them. If you encounter any problems with this, you > are asked to contact the nearest SS office and report the offence. This is not exactly true. In article <1991Feb1.034754.24237@lavaca.uh.edu> jet@karazm.math.uh.edu ("J. Eric Townsend") writes: >I'd love to be able to say "Law <foo> says otherwise. Refuse me service >and I win the suit, guaranteed." I wanted to do the same, but apparently we have no protection. I spoke to the North Carolina Civil Liberties Union (part of the ACLU) about this at length because I was ticked off from being refused service twice in one week -- I wouldn't give my SSN to a credit card company and to an insurance company because I thought "Law <foo>" applied. It turns out that the laws (most recently revised at length in 1976) only protect you from giving your SSN to certain *public* agencies. You are required to give your SSN to government agencies dealing with tax matters, state driver's license applications, and several others. Public agencies not included in this list can not force you to give your SSN, or to refuse you service for withholding it. Private companies, however, are not required to abide by the Privacy Act (just like they do not have to abide by constitutional requirements that apply to the government). If they want to make your SSN a requisite for an application for credit card, or insurance, or whatever, then they can. If you don't like it, then you have the option of going to a different company. Of course, I don't know if there are any illegalities about giving them a fictitious SSN, but that probably won't help your credit report... There doesn't seem to be enough people concerned about this to make a change to cause the private sector to not ask your SSN. Several people I've spoken to say "what's the big deal". The people at the insurance place I went to were furious that I was hesitant to give them my SSN. One woman stood up and went to report to her boss, and the other lectured me that my SSN was "public knowledge". By now everyone is probably cross-referenced enough that they can figure out your SSN anyway. Say "welcome" to Big Brother... John Whitehead Internet: jfw@neuro.duke.edu Department of Neurobiology jfw@well.sf.ca.us Duke University Medical Center Bitnet: white002@dukemc Durham, North Carolina
las@wnss (root) (02/19/91)
jfw@neuro (John F. Whitehead) writes: > In article <4611@orchid12.UUCP> motcid!ellis@chg.mcd.mot.com > (John T Ellis) writes: > > 3. Currently, it is NOT illegal for anyone to ask you for your SS#. > > However, it IS illegal for them to refuse you service if you do > > not give it to them. If you encounter any problems with this, you > > are asked to contact the nearest SS office and report the offence. > This is not exactly true. > > It turns out that the laws (most recently revised at length in 1976) only > protect you from giving your SSN to certain *public* agencies. You are > required to give your SSN to government agencies dealing with tax matters, > state driver's license applications, and several others. Public agencies > not included in this list can not force you to give your SSN, or to refuse > you service for withholding it. > If someone can provide a citation, I'd be glad to (1) enter the text (Provided I can't find it on-line at the State Law Library here :-)) and (2) speak to a few (arg) attorneys about the issue involved here. Unfortunately, they're not civil liberty types, but they are very good. > There doesn't seem to be enough people concerned about this to make a > change to cause the private sector to not ask your SSN. But everyone following this thread is a start, and good things start small! > Several people I've spoken to say "what's the big deal". I don't believe we really understand just how "big a deal this is/will be" until it's too late. Unless people like those interested enough begin some sort of education campaign. It's easy enough. Pick up a sixer, and chew on your neighbors ear for a few minutes. Again, great change begins with a whisper. > By now everyone is probably cross-referenced enough that they can figure > out your SSN anyway. Say "welcome" to Big Brother... Perhaps I'm too idealistic (doubtful!) but I don't believe the "big connection" has been made yet. But it's not far away. > John Whitehead Internet: jfw@neuro.duke.edu > Department of Neurobiology jfw@well.sf.ca.us > Duke University Medical Center Bitnet: white002@dukemc > Durham, North Carolina [...] cs.utexas.edu!dogface!wnss!las Lance Spangler PARENTAL KIDNAPPING IS A CRIME Senior Producer WITH NO AFFIRMATIVE DEFENSE! KVUE Television Support its prosecution ! Austin, Texas All appropriate disclaimers apply.
marcus@intermec.UUCP (Marcus Albro) (02/28/91)
In article <29736@mimsy.umd.edu> dalamb@umiacs.umd.edu (David Lamb) writes: >Is it legal for all these people to do this? Did somebody change the >rules, or was my "vague memory" always wrong? is anyone else upset about >this? >-- > >David Alex Lamb internet: dalamb@umiacs.umd.edu I think it is a symptom of alot of regulations that are implemented with caveats by our government. I seem to remember that car lisences were only for some sort of financial emergency, to be immendiately removed when unneeded, and the same for driver's lisences. It is this attitude that scares me when I hear of a levy for a 'temporary' tax to fund some emergency, it almost never goes away. -- ============================================================================ Marcus Albro email: marcus@intermec.com or uunet!pilchuck!intermec!marcus Another Environmentalist for Nuclear Energy - Split Atoms, Not Wood! ============================================================================