langz@asylum.SF.CA.US (Lang Zerner) (04/05/91)
According to the San Francisco Chronicle, p. C1, April 4, 1991, the national Safeway supermarket chain will soon begin accepting Visa and MasterCard for purchases of groceries and other items. The banks that serve Safeway will get a special rate on purchases (1 percent) to encourage them to pass the discount on to Safeway. Customers will also have the option to use debit cards such as bank ATM cards (Lucky supermarkets in California have offered this convenience for some time). The article goes on for about 12 column-inches, starting on page 1 of the Business section and continuing on page 4. Most of the article explains why the new network will be good for Safeway (it is the business section :-). The following sentence appears on the continuation page: "Suzanne McGrath, a supermarket-industry analyst at Piper Jaffrey in Portland [Oregon], suggested that banks may be subsidizing the cost of the new equipment in order to gain information on customer purchases that they could then sell to consumer goods companies." That's it. There is no further discussion of the privacy infringement entailed by making personal information about an individual's spending habits available to third parties. One way to let Safeway and its customers attain almost all of the advantages of the new system without endangering customer privacy is for Safeway to bill only for the total purchase amount, and not maintain records of the purchase details any longer than necessary to conduct the business of selling groceries. If this is impossible for technical reasons, I would at least request their written assurance that they will not release the detail information to third parties. I also plan to write the Chronicle to voice my opinion that they were remiss in providing no discussion of the privacy issues. I will request that the Chronicle report on the privacy issues raised by the Safeway billing system and other computerized personal information databases (such as the new CA driving licenses). To write the Chronicle: Letters to the Editor San Francisco Chronicle 901 Mission Street San Francisco, CA 94103 Refer the Editor to "Safeway Stores to Accept Charge Cards," by Staff Writer Jamie Beckett, on page C1 of the April 4, 1991 morning edition. To write Safeway: Deborah Lambert Public Relations Manager Safeway, Incorporated 47400 Kato Road Fremont, CA 94538 If you are a Safeway customer, be sure to mention that fact in your letter. You may also be able to reach Ms. Lambert by telephone at 498-2011, but remember: you can't send a copy of a verbal response to the press if it is newsworthy. Please copy and post this message wherever it is appropriate. Customer goodwill is worth real money to Safeway; ket them know they'll be losing some if they make records of your personal buying habits available to third parties. Be seeing you... -- langz@asylum.sf.ca.us "Karma means `getting caught.' The secret to not creating karma is getting even without getting caught." --Rodent Kapoor
schweige@aldebaran.cs.nps.navy.mil (Jeffrey M. Schweiger) (04/06/91)
In article <13810@asylum.SF.CA.US> langz@asylum.SF.CA.US (Lang Zerner) writes: >According to the San Francisco Chronicle, p. C1, April 4, 1991, the >national Safeway supermarket chain will soon begin accepting Visa and >MasterCard for purchases of groceries and other items. The banks that >serve Safeway will get a special rate on purchases (1 percent) to >encourage them to pass the discount on to Safeway. Customers will also >have the option to use debit cards such as bank ATM cards (Lucky >supermarkets in California have offered this convenience for some time). ... >One way to let Safeway and its customers attain almost all of the >advantages of the new system without endangering customer privacy is for >Safeway to bill only for the total purchase amount, and not maintain >records of the purchase details any longer than necessary to conduct the >business of selling groceries. If this is impossible for technical >reasons, I would at least request their written assurance that they will >not release the detail information to third parties. This system has been in use at several Safeway's for quite some time. The only information recorded on the charge slip is the total purchase amount. My charge receipts (I've used the system) are separate from the normal cash register receipt and do not include extra details. In this regard they have no more information than any other credit card charge receipt (and in some cases, less). The only marketing information that the banks are getting from the charge receipts are that the card was used at a Safeway. It should be noted that the charge card machine is not linked to the cash register. The cashier has to manually key in the amount of sale to the charge card terminal. I do not see this Safeway endeavor as making any new inroads into privacy issues. Jeff Schweiger -- ******************************************************************************* Jeff Schweiger Standard Disclaimer CompuServe: 74236,1645 Internet (Milnet): schweige@taurus.cs.nps.navy.mil *******************************************************************************
petersja@debussy.cs.colostate.edu (james peterson) (04/06/91)
In article <13810@asylum.SF.CA.US> langz@asylum.SF.CA.US (Lang Zerner) writes: >According to the San Francisco Chronicle, p. C1, April 4, 1991, the >national Safeway supermarket chain will soon begin accepting Visa and >MasterCard for purchases of groceries and other items. > [stuff deleted] >The following sentence appears on the >continuation page: "Suzanne McGrath, a supermarket-industry analyst at >Piper Jaffrey in Portland [Oregon], suggested that banks may be >subsidizing the cost of the new equipment in order to gain information >on customer purchases that they could then sell to consumer goods >companies." > Interesting. Safeway is one store I will not shop at since they refused to issue me a check cashing card without knowing my Social Security number. This even after arguing four rungs up their corporate ladder. They simply refused. So I simply refuse to shop there. All part of the same pattern? If they took a debit card and only recorded the total, my privacy would have been enhanced over providing them with my SS#... -- james lee peterson petersja@CS.ColoState.edu dept. of computer science colorado state university "Some ignorance is invincible." ft. collins, colorado (voice:303/491-7137; fax:303/491-2293)
cyberoid@milton.u.washington.edu (Robert Jacobson) (04/06/91)
Charge cards aren't associated with lists of purchases? That seems an oversight. Bob Jacobson --
wouk@alumni.colorado.edu (Arthur Wouk) (04/06/91)
In article <13810@asylum.SF.CA.US> langz@asylum.SF.CA.US (Lang Zerner) writes: >According to the San Francisco Chronicle, p. C1, April 4, 1991, the >national Safeway supermarket chain will soon begin accepting Visa and >MasterCard for purchases of groceries and other items. The banks that ... >business section :-). The following sentence appears on the >continuation page: "Suzanne McGrath, a supermarket-industry analyst at >Piper Jaffrey in Portland [Oregon], suggested that banks may be >subsidizing the cost of the new equipment in order to gain information >on customer purchases that they could then sell to consumer goods >companies." > >That's it. There is no further discussion of the privacy infringement >entailed by making personal information about an individual's spending >habits available to third parties. > welcome to the twentieth century. i moved to colorado last year and found that safeway has an organized data collection system going called 'preferred customers'. you get a machine readable card which you have run through the bar code reader for each shopping trip. they collect information about what you buy, in exchange for which you get freebies proportional to the amount you spend per month. (i usually donate the freebies to the homeless here in boulder since we rarely use the stuff.) the only improvement over the present inventory control systems which are widespread on bar-code reading systems is the ability to correlate purchases over a period of time, thus correlating who buys item a with who buys item b. the information cannot be used about me, nor would it pay safeway to sell the information to anyone else in any way that would impact me unfavorably. i do not see food habits as forming a body of knowledge which would inconvenience me if made available to other food sellers not in competition with safeway. i am more annoyed with the proliferation of mail-order operations for other goods. if safeway goes over to vis nationwide, this may be because the experiment here in colorado is too expensive, and emplying the banks to produce the same information may be cheaper. also, it is easy to avoid the whole system by NOT using visa. the world managed to sell goods before visa, and no one is forced to use visa. -- arthur wouk internet: wouk@cs.colorado.edu
rcd@ico.isc.com (Dick Dunn) (04/06/91)
langz@asylum.SF.CA.US (Lang Zerner) writes: > According to the San Francisco Chronicle, p. C1, April 4, 1991, the > national Safeway supermarket chain will soon begin accepting Visa and > MasterCard for purchases of groceries and other items... ... > ..."Suzanne McGrath, a supermarket-industry analyst at > Piper Jaffrey in Portland [Oregon], suggested that banks may be > subsidizing the cost of the new equipment in order to gain information > on customer purchases... Safeway stores here (Boulder, CO) have a critter called a "Preferred Customer Card". They use it to gather info about your purchases and profile you, period. It's not a future thing, nor a maybe thing. The idea is that you get one of these cards; you show it every time you shop (they scan a bar code from it); the items you purchase are recorded in association with your card ID. At the end of the month, you get a bunch of coupons good for discounts or freebies of things you buy regularly. If that doesn't make it clear enough that they're gathering profiles on people, you can read it on the application for the card--there's a state- ment which says that by applying for the card, you give them permission to sell the information they gather about you! I do shop at Safeway. But I don't have an "Observed Customer Card":-) And I pay cash. -- Dick Dunn rcd@ico.isc.com -or- ico!rcd Boulder, CO (303)449-2870 ...Lately it occurs to me what a long, strange trip it's been.
spm2d@uvacs.cs.Virginia.EDU (Steven P. Miale) (04/07/91)
In article <14015@ccncsu.ColoState.EDU> petersja@debussy.cs.colostate.edu (james peterson) writes: >In article <13810@asylum.SF.CA.US> langz@asylum.SF.CA.US (Lang Zerner) writes: > >Interesting. Safeway is one store I will not shop at since they refused >to issue me a check cashing card without knowing my Social Security number. >This even after arguing four rungs up their corporate ladder. They >simply refused. So I simply refuse to shop there. Do what I do. I go to the bank next door and withdraw money, and then shop at safeway. They don't know who I am. I never use checks at a grocery store. Of course, it is practical for me, because I rarely spend over $20. I personally think the ability to use ATM cards at a grocery store is great, and should be done IF privacy can be protected. It is extremely simple for a computer to keep track of what is bought and to pass that on to a company which collects marketing data. The solution to the dilemna of our public society is to get the government off the back of the people and get it monitoring the corporations instead. I also believe we should be able to get our credit reports for free instead of having to pay $X a month for them, but that is another topic. > >All part of the same pattern? If they took a debit card and only >recorded the total, my privacy would have been enhanced over providing >them with my SS#... > The University of Virginia uses the SS# as the student ID. I don't like it. I am going to contact some people to get my ID# changed. And speaking of requiring SS#, I worked at a grocery store called Farm Fresh last summer, and they required the SS# on EVERY check. I was a cashier, and had to do it. > >-- >james lee peterson petersja@CS.ColoState.edu >dept. of computer science >colorado state university "Some ignorance is invincible." >ft. collins, colorado (voice:303/491-7137; fax:303/491-2293) Steven Miale University of Virginia
gl8f@astsun.astro.Virginia.EDU (Greg Lindahl) (04/07/91)
In article <1991Apr6.191817.23675@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU> spm2d@uvacs.cs.Virginia.EDU (Steven P. Miale) writes: >The University of Virginia uses the SS# as the student ID. I don't like it. >I am going to contact some people to get my ID# changed. You can't, really. If you complain they will give you an ID card with a different ID number on it, but your SSN will still be distributed to the library, the hospital, et cetera. If you are only an employee they will refuse to even give you another number. They refuse to consider your SSN private information. I wish I knew a law I could quote at them, or that DP auditors would grade down institutions that fail to protect private information. Can anyone give legal references? Please?
jgd@Dixie.Com (John G. DeArmond) (04/07/91)
wouk@alumni.colorado.edu (Arthur Wouk) writes: >the only improvement over the present inventory control systems which >are widespread on bar-code reading systems is the ability to correlate >purchases over a period of time, thus correlating who buys item a with >who buys item b. the information cannot be used about me, nor would >it pay safeway to sell the information to anyone else in any way that >would impact me unfavorably. i do not see food habits as forming a body >of knowledge which would inconvenience me if made available to other >food sellers not in competition with safeway. i am more annoyed with >the proliferation of mail-order operations for other goods. This is not true. Please read my article titled "POS data collection" in this group for more details. The data collected about your buying habits may end up being the most profitable item the food stores sell. Indeed, industry insiders estimate that life style database sale profits may soon exceed the profit made on the food products themselves! The stores are being paid 3 times. Once in the form of updated POS systems provided by the data aggregators, twice by getting fees to collect the data and three times by being paid for the actual data collected. >if safeway goes over to visa nationwide, this may be because the >experiment here in colorado is too expensive, and emplying the banks >to produce the same information may be cheaper. also, it is easy to >avoid the whole system by NOT using visa. the world managed to sell >goods before visa, and no one is forced to use visa. Safeway would go over to Visa because Visa wants in on this gravy train and will pay the grocers royally to gain access to the life style data. From the grocers' point of view, they win twice because they not only get to advertise that the plastic society has come to the grocery store, they also get the highest payment for the collected data. Like I noted in my previous article, it is vital that anyone at all concerned with personal privacy and/or the ability to lead a non-normal (as defined by insurance companies and the government) lives should completely boycott any store that employs any kind of life style data collection/ customer tracking system. The trinkets you receive now in return for your patronage will later make the sale of Manhattan Island look like a good deal for the Indians. John -- John De Armond, WD4OQC | "Purveyors of speed to the Trade" (tm) Rapid Deployment System, Inc. | Home of the Nidgets (tm) Marietta, Ga | jgd@dixie.com |"Politically InCorrect.. And damn proud of it
ec1l+@andrew.cmu.edu (Elias Thornton Curtz) (04/07/91)
spm2d@uvacs.cs.Virginia.EDU (Steven P. Miale) writes: >The University of Virginia uses the SS# as the student ID. I don't like it. >I am going to contact some people to get my ID# changed. We've got it even better here at Carnegie Mellon, Not only are our Student IDs our SS#s, but these are used as credit cards in school stores, for meal contracts, etc., electronically running all over campus... AND Every incoming frosh is assigned a computer account with YOUR SS# AS THE PASSWORD... I shudder to consider the consequences of this given the fact that this school is completely polarized into VERY computer-literate and "how do I run MacWrite" factions of students. (Not that I think they should be expected to know how to run MacWrite if they don't want to, but it might not be a good idea to give them a computer account with an easy to find password they may never change...) Sigh, time to start paying for everything in cash that I keep under my pillow, (At least until they make paying for items of over $100 value in cash illegal... )c: ) eli <ec1l+@andrew.cmu.edu>
schweige@taurus.cs.nps.navy.mil (Jeffrey M. Schweiger) (04/07/91)
While not disputing a potential abuse of privacy by point of sale terminals, what I have seen of Safeway's use of charge cards to pay for purchases suggests that they are not presently furnishing consumer purchase data to the credit card company. In Monterey, CA, where I have used this service, the charge card terminal is separate from the register, and appears to be part of a different system. The amount of purchase is not transfered over from the register to the charge terminal and must be entered by hand by the checker. The credit card number is not transferred to the cash register receipt, which states only "MISC TENDER" While I would not be surprised if the two systems were tied together in the future, they do not appear to be at the present time. -- ******************************************************************************* Jeff Schweiger Standard Disclaimer CompuServe: 74236,1645 Internet (Milnet): schweige@taurus.cs.nps.navy.mil *******************************************************************************
sean@dranet.dra.com (04/08/91)
In article <2050@aldebaran.cs.nps.navy.mil>, schweige@aldebaran.cs.nps.navy.mil (Jeffrey M. Schweiger) writes: > This system has been in use at several Safeway's for quite some time. The > only information recorded on the charge slip is the total purchase amount. Also recorded is the date/time and location (which box this is). Depending on the transaction rates, any decently synched timestamp will provide enough information for post-processing and matching. This information was originally gathered to track fraud, but it can be used for other matching purposes just as easily. -- Sean Donelan, Data Research Associates, Inc, St. Louis, MO 63132-1806 Domain: sean@dranet.dra.com, Voice: (Work) +1 314-432-1100
randolph@cognito.Eng.Sun.COM (Randolph Fritz) (04/08/91)
Folks, can any of you tell me just what all this lifestyle information is used for currently? *Not* potentially. What's being done with it now? And, equally serious question -- is the information you get any more detailed or valuable than could be gotten by scanning the telephone book and walking through your neighborhood? I'm beginning to get the strong impression that vast amounts of effort are being spent to gather information that -- for the most part -- just isn't that useful and is pretty easily available anyhow. nd t ou ui R Press T __Randolph Fritz sun!cognito.eng!randolph || randolph@eng.sun.com ou ui Mountain View, California, North America, Earth nd t
petersja@debussy.cs.colostate.edu (james peterson) (04/08/91)
In article <1991Apr6.000027.462@colorado.edu> wouk@alumni.colorado.edu (Arthur Wouk) writes: >i do not see food habits as forming a body >of knowledge which would inconvenience me if made available to other >food sellers not in competition with safeway. That is, until your insurance company raises your health insurance and life insurance rates (or revokes your coverage) for "risky and self-destructive eating habits" because you eat too much bacon and cheese.... > >arthur wouk >internet: wouk@cs.colorado.edu -- james lee peterson petersja@CS.ColoState.edu dept. of computer science colorado state university "Some ignorance is invincible." ft. collins, colorado (voice:303/491-7137; fax:303/491-2293)
scott@bbxsda.UUCP (Scott Amspoker) (04/09/91)
In article <14073@ccncsu.ColoState.EDU> petersja@debussy.cs.colostate.edu (james peterson) writes: >>i do not see food habits as forming a body >>of knowledge which would inconvenience me if made available to other >>food sellers not in competition with safeway. > >That is, until your insurance company raises your health insurance and >life insurance rates (or revokes your coverage) for "risky and >self-destructive eating habits" because you eat too much bacon and cheese.... Yes. How do you explain to the insurance company: The cigarettes a visiting relative asked you to pick up while you were at the store? The beer you bought for your barbeque guests (even though you never touch the stuff)? The condoms? (possible promicuity) Extra gasoline? (hey, you said you only commute 10 miles a day) "Hang Gliders Quarterly" magazine? (dangerous lifestyle) -- Scott Amspoker | Touch the peripheral convex of every Basis International, Albuquerque, NM | kind, then various kinds of blaming (505) 345-5232 | sound can be sent forth. unmvax.cs.unm.edu!bbx!bbxsda!scott | - Instructions for a little box that | blurts out obscenities.
jrbd@craycos.com (James Davies) (04/10/91)
In article <11216@exodus.Eng.Sun.COM> randolph@cognito.Eng.Sun.COM (Randolph Fritz) writes: >Folks, can any of you tell me just what all this lifestyle information >is used for currently? *Not* potentially. What's being done with it >now? I don't know about this one, but... >And, equally serious question -- is the information you get any more >detailed or valuable than could be gotten by scanning the telephone >book and walking through your neighborhood? I'm beginning to get the >strong impression that vast amounts of effort are being spent to >gather information that -- for the most part -- just isn't that useful >and is pretty easily available anyhow. Definitely valuable. My viewpoint on this comes from running a small software business. I would have paid great amounts of money (well, say $1 per name) to get a mailing list of people who fit certain criteria ("owns a PC Fortran compiler" would have been the best in my case). It isn't hard to extrapolate from this to makers of consumer goods. Would a maker of charcoal lighter fluid like to know who buys lots of charcoal? You bet they would (so that they could send the heavy barbeque-r some coupons). The same applies to lots of other consumer goods...think about the junk you get in the mail these days (I do, and I assume others do, too) advertising random groceries, soap, deodorant, etc. Now think what it would be worth to the manufacturers if they could narrow down their mailings to people who already buy each item. Hopefully you see what I'm getting at. This sort of use of the data isn't really a problem -- in fact, it could actually reduce your junk mail or make it more personally relevant. Of course, other reasons for this to be valuable were pointed out by John DeArmond in his POS posting -- for example, your health insurance provider would be delighted to find out that you were buying 3 cartons per day of cigarettes...odds are that by dropping the coverage of all smokers, they would save quite a bit on reduced lung-cancer claims. This sort of data use is a severe invasion of your privacy, and is increasingly likely to occur once the data is available. As John points out, Safeway (or whoever owns the data) is unlikely to be so moral that they would turn down the millions upon millions of dollars that they could get just by letting Prudential have a copy of their records, especially since there is no legal reason that they couldn't do so. Personally, there's no way I would ever get a frequent-buyer card. For that matter, I'm getting pretty leery about using my credit cards these days, too. Jim Davies jrbd@craycos.com