ts@cup.portal.com (Tim W Smith) (04/11/91)
[This is cross posted to misc.legal because it contains questions about how one becomes a lawyer, and to comp.org.eff.talk, because it contains questions about what one should do after one becomes a lawyer if one wants to deal with the issues EFF deals with] I estimate that in about five years (when I'm 35) I'll be tired of my current line of work (programming). I'll still be interested in keeping up with computer technology, but will be tired of actually spending all my time writing new programs. And I do not want to move into management. I'm interested in several of the legal and social aspects of computing, such as copyrights and patents as they apply to software, privacy and liability in email, BBS freedom, etc.. I'm wondering if it would be reasonable when I tire of programming to get legal training or even become a lawyer and specialize in these areas. What does it take to switch to law from another profession? For example, how much preparation must one have before law school, and what does it take to get into law school, and how much does it cost, and how long does it take? And if I do this, what are the prospects after law school? I don't think I want to actually end up as a working lawyer. I think I would like to end up working with my current employer in a research capacity (which the owner of the company says fits in with his plans for me) which would take up maybe 30 hrs/week, and then maybe donate the rest of my time to organizations like the EFF or other such organizations that are interested in these issues or just providing free advice to people who can't afford a lawyer (like, say, BBS operators or shareware authors). Would this be useful to such organizations or groups, or am I just being crazy here? Tim Smith
mnemonic@eff.org (Mike Godwin) (04/12/91)
In article <41162@cup.portal.com> ts@cup.portal.com (Tim W Smith) writes: > >I'm wondering if it would be reasonable when I tire of programming >to get legal training or even become a lawyer and specialize in >these areas. Assuming that it is ever reasonable to become a lawyer, yes, what you describe here is reasonable. >What does it take to switch to law from another profession? For >example, how much preparation must one have before law school, >and what does it take to get into law school, and how much does >it cost, and how long does it take? No further educational prep is necessary, other than law school itself, which typically lasts three years. Prices vary--check a Barron's guide or something similar. >And if I do this, what are the prospects after law school? I don't >think I want to actually end up as a working lawyer. I think I would >like to end up working with my current employer in a research capacity >(which the owner of the company says fits in with his plans for me) >which would take up maybe 30 hrs/week, and then maybe donate the >rest of my time to organizations like the EFF or other such organizations >that are interested in these issues or just providing free advice to >people who can't afford a lawyer (like, say, BBS operators or >shareware authors). Would this be useful to such organizations >or groups, or am I just being crazy here? Job oppportunities will vary, depending on your performance in school and your interests. It's hard to predict ahead of time what either will be. I work for EFF because there aren't many lawyers like me. I think there may well be a market for more of them. On the other hand, there are a lot of lawyers out there. --Mike -- Mike Godwin, (617) 864-0665 | "Language is a virus mnemonic@eff.org | from outer space." Electronic Frontier | Foundation |
twc@ys2.uucp (Ted Chan) (04/13/91)
[stuff deleted] > I'm interested in several of the legal and social aspects of computing, > such as copyrights and patents as they apply to software, privacy and > liability in email, BBS freedom, etc.. > > I'm wondering if it would be reasonable when I tire of programming > to get legal training or even become a lawyer and specialize in > these areas. Law school shouldn't be too difficult for anyone with any training in an intellectually rigorous discipline, e.g. engineering, math, cs. > What does it take to switch to law from another profession? For > example, how much preparation must one have before law school, If your basic reading and writing skills are up to snuff, you shouldn't require any preparation beyond taking a course to prepare you for the LSAT. Law is a discipline that places a premium on diligence, rather than intelligence or aptitude (but of course, the latter two characteristics do help...). > and what does it take to get into law school, and how much does Decent grades and decent LSAT scores. > it cost, and how long does it take? UC law schools are relatively cheap, but private school tuition can run 10-15K/year. Law school takes 3 years full-time, four years part time. > And if I do this, what are the prospects after law school? I don't Good for computer lawyers, so-so for run of the mill lawyers. > think I want to actually end up as a working lawyer. I think I would > like to end up working with my current employer in a research capacity > (which the owner of the company says fits in with his plans for me) > which would take up maybe 30 hrs/week, and then maybe donate the > rest of my time to organizations like the EFF or other such organizations > that are interested in these issues or just providing free advice to > people who can't afford a lawyer (like, say, BBS operators or > shareware authors). Would this be useful to such organizations > or groups, or am I just being crazy here? You can feel free to do what you like, however, if you don't practice law, you'd better have an extremely good income from you chosen job (to pay off those student loans)! --twc ************************************************************************** * I have found a truly wonderful proof which * UCB Mathematics 1983 * * this margin is too narrow to contain. * Standard Disclaimer(s) * ************************************************************************** * Ted W. Chan * Micro Flexhead(TM) * UUCP: twc@legal.uucp * * Corporate Counsel * Contact Recording * DATA: (408) 241-8373 * * Censtor Corp. * Heads and Media * VOICE: (408) 298-8400 * **************************************************************************
louisg@vpnet.chi.il.us (Louis Giliberto) (04/15/91)
At Loyola University where I am an undergrad in CompSci (Chicago campus), they have a program that may interest some people. You can concurrently get a masters degree in computer science and a law degree. Loyola's law school is pretty decent, and so is the CS program. Being in Chicago is also a benefit. I was thinking of doing this, but I would rahter try for a doctorate in CS and I don't want to be in school until I'm 40, so.... I'm already in the combined BS/MS program (next semester) so I don't have time, either. Plus, my sister wants to be a corporate (gag!) lawyer and follow in Daddy's footsteps (double gag!) so I'm not even going to bother. What does this have to do with anything? Nothing. I just thought that the particular program they had going was of interest to people. Louis giliberto, Jr. (louisg@vpnet.chi.il.us) -- --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ! "As above, so below; as below, so above" -- The Kybalion ! ! "I don't trust him; he has dark hair" -- My girlfriend's mother ! ! "So I'm stupid; what's your point?" -- Me !
ts@cup.portal.com (Tim W Smith) (04/16/91)
I've received a few email replies to my posting on the reasonablness of becoming a lawyer. Most of them were either from people doing what I was contemplating, or who want a summary of whatever I receive, or both. In a couple of weeks, I'll summarize the email and post it. Tim Smith
jwoodman@magnus.ircc.ohio-state.edu (Jonathan A Woodman) (04/17/91)
In article <41162@cup.portal.com> ts@cup.portal.com (Tim W Smith) writes: >I estimate that in about five years (when I'm 35) I'll be tired >of my current line of work (programming). >What does it take to switch to law from another profession? For >example, how much preparation must one have before law school, >and what does it take to get into law school, and how much does >it cost, and how long does it take? I certainly am not an expert, but I can tell you by looking at the current crop of law students at my school, that there are quite a few people who are in similar positions to the one you describe. In fact, in Civil Procedure, I sit next to a 39 year old ex-banker on one side, and a 42 year old ex-programmer on the other. Very little preparation is needed to get into law school, really. It seems like the history and poli sci majors don't do any better than the engineers. Law school is only three years (maybe the quickest doctorate there is) and around here, in-state tuition is about $4,000/year, which is pretty reasonable when you consider what the degree will be worth. So if you have the inclination and motivation to switch to a legal career, go for it! You certainly are not alone, and you may very well find it to be a rewarding change. Jonathan Woodman
ooblick@intercon.com (Mikki Barry) (04/18/91)
> Law school shouldn't be too difficult for anyone with any training > in an intellectually rigorous discipline, e.g. engineering, math, cs. I disagree. Law school shouldn't be too difficult for anyone who enjoys reading, understanding, and virtually memorizing hundreds of pages of dull and boring text each and every night. It really has nothing to do with previous training in an "intellectually rigorous discipline". The skills necessary to do well in law school, besides a pathological need to have a book in one hand and a yellow highlighter in the other, include sorting through reams and reams of garbage to find the small glimmer of usefulness at the bottom. Engineering, math or CS will not prepare you for shoveling piles of bullshit. > > and what does it take to get into law school, and how much does > > Decent grades and decent LSAT scores. That's the way it USED to be. The number of applications have increased so much in recent years that many people with 4.0 averages and 48 LSAT scores are being REJECTED. Why? Becuase they have no lives. What is looked for now, besides very good grades and very good LSAT scores are life skills, such as prior career, prior publications, other organizations you have excelled with, etc. etc. > > And if I do this, what are the prospects after law school? I don't > Good for computer lawyers, so-so for run of the mill lawyers. Oh? Only if you are willing to move. For example, I had 54 interviews with firms in Washington DC that deal with computer law. I was editor in chief of a technology law journal. My grades were very good, and I have good interview skills. NONE of these interviews resulted in a job. Why? MANY firms are just plain not hiring (yet they interview anyway to keep in practice...at least that was their "official" reasining). I got my job by personal contacts in a corporation. > You can feel free to do what you like, however, if you don't practice > law, you'd better have an extremely good income from you chosen job > (to pay off those student loans)! No kidding! Problem is, even with the average associates income, if your loans are substantial, such as top ten private schools (16,000 + per year, plus living expenses), you STILL can't afford the loans unless you work on Wall Street. You certainly won't be able to afford a $40,000 corporate position, or a $30,000 government or public service position. Mikki Barry
jwoodman@magnus.ircc.ohio-state.edu (Jonathan A Woodman) (04/20/91)
In article <DAB90.3BAD@intercon.com> ooblick@intercon.com (Mikki Barry) writes: >> Law school shouldn't be too difficult for anyone with any training >> in an intellectually rigorous discipline, e.g. engineering, math, cs. > >I disagree. Law school shouldn't be too difficult for anyone who enjoys >reading, understanding, and virtually memorizing hundreds of pages of dull and >boring text each and every night. I must say that I found my engineering texts much more boring and tedious than the law cases I now read. Really! Reading some Cardozo cases is like reading poetry. Truly a master of the finely turned phrase. Besides, the rule of law is what really matters. >It really has nothing to do with previous >training in an "intellectually rigorous discipline". The skills necessary to >do well in law school, besides a pathological need to have a book in one hand >and a yellow highlighter in the other, include sorting through reams and reams >of garbage to find the small glimmer of usefulness at the bottom. Engineering, >math or CS will not prepare you for shoveling piles of bullshit. Geez, Mikki, are you *sure* you want to be a lawyer? As a fellow law student, I must say, I don't feel this way at all. >> > And if I do this, what are the prospects after law school? I don't > >> Good for computer lawyers, so-so for run of the mill lawyers. > >Oh? Only if you are willing to move. For example, I had 54 interviews with >firms in Washington DC that deal with computer law. I was editor in chief of a >technology law journal. My grades were very good, and I have good interview >skills. NONE of these interviews resulted in a job. Gosh, all the high-tech firms out here are saying that they have never seen a better job market for people coming out of law school with technical backgrounds. Maybe that is just out here in the Midwest, but look around. While most law students are scared to death of the job market right now, those with technical backgrounds appear to be sitting pretty. >> You can feel free to do what you like, however, if you don't practice >> law, you'd better have an extremely good income from you chosen job >> (to pay off those student loans)! Unless you go to a state-funded school! :-) Jonathan Woodman Class of '93
ooblick@intercon.com (Mikki Barry) (04/22/91)
In article <1991Apr19.193313.314@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu>, jwoodman@magnus.ircc.ohio-state.edu (Jonathan A Woodman) writes: > Gosh, all the high-tech firms out here are saying that they have never seen a > better job market for people coming out of law school with technical > backgrounds. Maybe that is just out here in the Midwest, but look around. While > most law students are scared to death of the job market right now, those with > technical backgrounds appear to be sitting pretty. I think that it is indeed because you are in the Midwest. East Coast and West Coast people are finding it very difficult to find jobs, even from elite schools. 30-40% of my class are unemployed. This includes computer lawyers, as well as main journal editors. The difference is that if your "technical background" is in hardware, etc. and you want to be a patent lawyer, it's much easier to find a job. The problem is that CS is *not* considered a technical discipline by the patent bar. So, of course, the only people who know enough about software to argue for/against a patent are summarily excluded. But then, that's government for you. > >> You can feel free to do what you like, however, if you don't practice > >> law, you'd better have an extremely good income from you chosen job > >> (to pay off those student loans)! > > Unless you go to a state-funded school! :-) You still usually need loans to sustain yourself since you can't really work first year.
joeh@oakhill.sps.mot.com (Joe Hollinger) (04/23/91)
ooblick@intercon.com (Mikki Barry) writes: >You still usually need loans to sustain yourself since you can't really work >first year. I did.
barry@chatham.uucp (Barry Campbell) (04/23/91)
joeh@oakhill.sps.mot.com (Joe Hollinger) writes: > ooblick@intercon.com (Mikki Barry) writes: > > >You still usually need loans to sustain yourself since you can't really work > >first year. > > I did. I'm a first-year, and I'm working at the moment... well, at the moment, I'm posting on Usenet, but I do work. :) It's not only possible, I'd recommend it... helps one keep one's feet on the ground. Barry Campbell barry%chatham@duke.cs.duke.edu / UUCP: [...] mcnc!wolves!chatham!barry Chatham Host BBS 919 932 1142 / Chapel Hill, North Carolina ---------------------------------------------------------------------- "Pray for a good harvest, but don't stop hoeing." - Bohemian proverb
jwoodman@magnus.ircc.ohio-state.edu (Jonathan A Woodman) (04/24/91)
In article barry@chatham.uucp (Barry Campbell) writes: >joeh@oakhill.sps.mot.com (Joe Hollinger) writes: >> ooblick@intercon.com (Mikki Barry) writes: >>>You still usually need loans to sustain yourself since you can't really work >>>first year. >> I did. >I'm a first-year, and I'm working at the moment... well, at the moment, I'm >posting on Usenet, but I do work. :) > >It's not only possible, I'd recommend it... helps one keep one's feet on the >ground. Me, too. I'm a first year, and I work part-time for a lawyer downtown. All of my first-year friends are actually envious, because putting the stuff I have learned into practice has made my first year *easier*. Besides, I'm learning all sorts of things that they don't teach you in law school.... Jonathan Woodman
harkcom@spinach.pa.yokogawa.co.jp (Alton Harkcom) (04/24/91)
The subject line of this one really tickles me when I see it. ThinK: Lawyers Computers Reasonable Should keep one laughing for the few years it takes the law to ruin the computer industry... Al --
ooblick@intercon.com (Mikki Barry) (04/24/91)
In article <2JHu11w164w@chatham.uucp>, barry@chatham.uucp (Barry Campbell) writes: > joeh@oakhill.sps.mot.com (Joe Hollinger) writes: > > > ooblick@intercon.com (Mikki Barry) writes: > > > > >You still usually need loans to sustain yourself since you can't really work > > >first year. > > > > I did. > > I'm a first-year, and I'm working at the moment... well, at the moment, I'm > posting on Usenet, but I do work. :) > > It's not only possible, I'd recommend it... helps one keep one's feet on the > ground. The ABA guidelines for law schools limit the amount of time one can work and remain in school full time. Many schools extend this and absolutely prohibit full time students from working their first year. I believe that the ABA rules limit first year students to 10 hours of work per week.
joeh@oakhill.sps.mot.com (Joe Hollinger) (04/25/91)
ooblick@intercon.com (Mikki Barry) writes: >The ABA guidelines for law schools limit the amount of time one can work and >remain in school full time. Many schools extend this and absolutely prohibit >full time students from working their first year. I believe that the ABA rules >limit first year students to 10 hours of work per week. So how many people have been sanctioned by your school?
ooblick@intercon.com (Mikki Barry) (04/26/91)
In article <1991Apr25.021338.2747@oakhill.sps.mot.com>, joeh@oakhill.sps.mot.com (Joe Hollinger) writes: > >The ABA guidelines for law schools limit the amount of time one can work and > >remain in school full time. Many schools extend this and absolutely prohibit > >full time students from working their first year. I believe that the ABA rules > >limit first year students to 10 hours of work per week. > > So how many people have been sanctioned by your school? Well, they won't really tell us. Disciplinary proceedings are confidential :-). But seriously, probably not many. Unless, of course, someone were to push it and demand sanctions. The school is a bit busy deciding what to do about our AA flap and the person who "acquired" confidential information spoken about in a previous posting.