ts@cup.portal.com (Tim W Smith) (05/15/91)
About a month or so ago, I posted a question similar to the following: What does it take to switch to law from another field? I'm getting tired of programming, and have been interested in patents and copyright law. Is it reasonable for one in one's early 30's to go to law school? And what happens after law school? I don't want to actually go to work as a lawyer. I want to keep programming part time to make my living, and donate the rest of time to worthy causes, like the EFF or other groups working to resolve the problems that arise when high technology meets society. This article contains the email I received in response to this post. Authors names have been replaced with "author 1", "author 2", etc. I've also done minor editing, such as correcting typos, and reformatting things. When a reply quoted my original posting, I've replaced that quote with a bunch of asterisks, if my original text is not needed for one to understand the reply. I've stuck my own comments and additional questions in. My comments and questions will be in square brackets and will be initialed, so they will [look like this --TZS]. ---------------------------------BEGIN----------------------------- From: author 1 I can't answer all your questions, but I can answer some of them. For your information I just did what you are talking about and I start Law School this Fall. To apply for law school you will have to take the LSAT (Law School Admission Test) and register with the LSDAS (Law School Data Assembly Service). All this will cost about $150. Next you should consider taking a LSAT preparation class. I did and I am not sure that it improved my score, but it gave me something to do while I was waiting to take the test. [What does a class do that various LSAT prep books do not do? I've tried some of the sample tests in these books, and they predict I'll get something in the low 40's. How much can I expect a class to improve this? --TZS] Next you need to figure out what law schools you want to apply to. There is some information on how to figure this out in the Information Book you get with the application for the LSAT. I am assuming that you have a B.S. If you don't have a B.S. or B.A. then I don't think you will be able to get into a Law School. When you know what law schools you are interested in give them a call and they will tell you what kind of GPA's and LSAT scores there students have. This should let you know if you stand a chance at all. My experience would tend to sugest that law schools are interested in recruiting students with technical backgrounds. (B.S. and M.S. in C.S in my case) I seem to have a more general interest in the Law than you and as a result I am really leaving open what I intend to do when I graduate. It seems that copyright law and patent law are obvious choices. I would also think that plain old contract law would be useful for negotiated software development deals. Even criminal law with the intent of focusing on computer related crimes though most computer crimes really need and accounting background rather than programming. ------------------------------------------------------------------- From: author 2 I'm taking a year off to do consulting before law school (that is if I get in - I'll know in a month or so). Would you mind sending me a copy of some of the better responses you get? um...make that before next Monday - I'm graduating and outta here! [Well, unless you really blew your final exams, I guess this is going to be a little late for you. Sorry. --TZS] ------------------------------------------------------------------- From: author 3 Hi. I'm a student at SUNYA, who, although I've suffered through a Computer Science major, am going to law school next year, with the exact interests that you noted (patents, copywrites, etc , for computer software...information privacy, intellectual property). It is definitely a doable field, and I've been told that this area of the law is one of few that is not filled right now. There are schools with special programs in computers/technology and law. The ones I've seen are: Stanford Columbia Santa Clara (Calif) Arizona (not sure if its state or univ. of) Berkeley has many classes, though not a speceific program Georgetown (where I think Im going next year), has a law review on the subject There are probably more, but I just missed them. I can't tell you about going back to law school after working for 10 years, but I can tell you that the average age at most law schools is about 27. So, it seems that many people do return to school after time off. [Barron's "Guide To Law Schools" includes for each school the age range of the latest entering class and the average age, if anyone is curious. --TZS] Applying to schools is no bowl of cherries though. First, you have to take the LSAT -- I highly recommend taking a course -- Stanley Kaplan was excellent. While you apply for the test, you also have to apply to LSDAS -- this service takes your LSAT grade, and college grades and sends them to schools as one form. ($65 for LSAT, $65 for LSDAS, $8/school for reports). Then you do the applications for each school,($50 - $60 ea), including recommendations, and a personal statement. Then you wait. (the worst part!). Really good private schools (Columbia, NYU, Georgetown, etc) are 28,000 this year -- and its sure to go up in 5 years. (thats 28k per year). Moderate schools are around 19k. A lot of money, but it all pays off. I think thats all I can answer for you. Feel free to write back if you have any questions.....good luck!! [Thanks...I'm going to need good luck, I fear. I would like to participate in a part time program rather than full time because I need to keep working while attending school, because A) I need the money, B) the small company I work for needs me, C) said company is owned by my best friend, so I wouldn't feel right just leaving them to go to school full time, D) I'm not yet done paying off my loans for Caltech, so I need the money. Looking through Barron's to find ABA approved schools with part time programs that are < 40 miles from where I live, I find exactly *one* school. So it looks like I won't have any fallback - I've gotta get into this school. Anyone have any ideas as to how one begs in a dignified manner? :-) --TZS] ------------------------------------------------------------------- From: author 4 You'll get lots of answers with specifics, but I'd like to pass along the aphorism common among lawyers: Most lawyers hate being a lawyer. Coming from another profession makes a big difference, but the ABA statistics show a very high rate of dissatisfaction for a white-collar profession. Worse, law school can be real hell. My fiancee hated her three years at Yale Law, and most of the lawyers she and I know aren't satisfied with the law as a career. The reasons are the usual: long hours, boring work, inanity and absurdity. Before you say "Oh, that won't happen to me because I'll be working for a cause" (like EFF), keep in mind that plum public interest law jobs are hard to get. Yes, there is cutthroat competition to get jobs paying less than $25,000/year. [I'm planning to get my money doing programming or developing new products for my current employer. Any work for a cause will be for free, assuming that the groups working for such causes want my help. So I'm not worried about long hours or boring work because I plan to only work on what interests me. --TZS] Amazing, really. And with the current glut of lawyers, there's lots of competition for the non-public interest jobs, too. Another of my friends went into personal injury law, defending insurance companies from claims--real scum law, y'know? He didn't even make much money for the first three years and he hates it. He has to do things like grill little old ladies about their sex lives (loss of consortium is a common ground for claims). Imagine all the ugliness of L.A. Law with none of the glamor and a huge amount of boredom. Don't mean to rain on your parade, but I contemplated the same thing until I got a look at the inside. ------------------------------------------------------------------- From: author 5 [I belive that this one was posted to the net in addition to it being mailed to me, because I seem to recall that the following two paragraphs set off some mild flaming. Sorry if reposting it here sets off flames again. --TZS] Law school shouldn't be too difficult for anyone with any training in an intellectually rigorous discipline, e.g. engineering, math, cs. ***** If your basic reading and writing skills are up to snuff, you shouldn't require any preparation beyond taking a course to prepare you for the LSAT. Law is a discipline that places a premium on diligence, rather than intelligence or aptitude (but of course, the latter two characteristics do help...). > and what does it take to get into law school, and how much does Decent grades and decent LSAT scores. > it cost, and how long does it take? UC law schools are relatively cheap, but private school tuition can run 10-15K/year. Law school takes 3 years full-time, four years part time. > And if I do this, what are the prospects after law school? I don't Good for computer lawyers, so-so for run of the mill lawyers. ------------------------------------------------------------------- From: author 4 [Author 4 sent me a second email message, which was a response to what someone else posted in response to my posting. The quoted text below is from that posted response to my posting, not me. --TZS] >I certainly am not an expert, but I can tell you by looking at the current crop >of law students at my school, that there are quite a few people who are in >similar positions to the one you describe. In fact, in Civil Procedure, I sit >next to a 39 year old ex-banker on one side, and a 42 year old ex-programmer >on the other. Yeah, on this subject let me add a positive note to my earlier negative comments about a law career. One of my fiancee's friends at Yale Law was a Princeton robotics grad. who had spent a couple of years working as an engineer before going to law school. She did quite well (strapping girl, too; she and my fiancee used to trade rugby stories). To my taste, she was a rather more literal-minded and logical than I would like in a lawyer but that's just my fuzzy-wuzzy humanities major prejudices getting in the way. Anyway, the backgrounds of people in her class at were quite varied, as were the ages. One last anecdote: My dad teaches journalism at the U of Wash. and one of his students was a lawyer who wanted to be a reporter. It goes both ways.... -----------------------------------END----------------------------- The rest of the discussion on this topic took place on the net, so I have not included any of that here because everyone already has seen it (and besides, by the time I thought to save everything that was posted so as to include it here, it had all expired...). Tim Smith
jwoodman@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Jonathan A Woodman) (05/16/91)
In article <42349@cup.portal.com> ts@cup.portal.com (Tim W Smith) writes: I agreed with what most of the respondents had to say, and I even agree with a lot of what this particular author said, but this one thing he said is plain wrong. >You'll get lots of answers with specifics, but I'd like to >pass along the aphorism common among lawyers: Most lawyers >hate being a lawyer. Coming from another profession makes a >big difference, but the ABA statistics show a very high rate >of dissatisfaction for a white-collar profession. In fact, the latest ABA poll showed just the opposite: that most lawyers either very satisfied or satisfied with their jobs. Other polls have shown that lawyers are among the most satisfied among white-collar professions. Why? I don't know, but I wanted to point out that the polls do not agree with the statement above. Jonathan Woodman -- Jonathan Woodman \ "[K]nowledge *should* lead to *wisdom*, jwoodman@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu / and if it *doesn't*, it's just a The Ohio State University \ disgusting waste of time!" College of Law / -J.D. Salinger, _Franny and Zooey_
rstokey@ruffles.nrtc.northrop.com (Richard J. Stokey) (05/17/91)
> IN article <42349@cup.portal.com> ts@cup.portal.com (Tim W Smith) writes: >I agreed with what most of the respondents had to say, and I even agree with >a lot of what this particular author said, but this one thing he said is >>You'll get lots of answers with specifics, but I'd like to >>pass along the aphorism common among lawyers: Most lawyers >>hate being a lawyer. Coming from another profession makes a >>big difference, but the ABA statistics show a very high rate >>of dissatisfaction for a white-collar profession. >In fact, the latest ABA poll showed just the opposite: that most lawyers >either very satisfied or satisfied with their jobs. Other polls have shown >that lawyers are among the most satisfied among white-collar professions. >Why? I don't know, but I wanted to point out that the polls do not agree >with the statement above. Both of these statements may be correct depending on how each specific poll was conducted , i.e. what question was asked and who was polled. I talked to a placement officer of a local law school and she said that approximately the same number of people are leaving the law as are entering. Therefore, a poll of the people who stay in the law would show a high satisfaction rate because all the people who left are not measured. The poll percentages by themeselves don't give any information without knowing what questions were asked and the representativeness of the survey.