ytsuji@wucc.waseda.ac.jp (Y.Tsuji) (06/11/91)
I posted an appeal for beta testers of a 1.44 MB drive hack six weeks ago and have received 23 responses. I admit the instructions were not intelligible to people who had never used soldering irons, but to be honest, I had expected at least one person would succeed to build a fine adaptor or at least one person would be asking me to lend the adaptor. I shouldn't have been surprised to realise how really few people are seriously committed to ATARI ST. After all, we haven't had real applications other than music and printing. No more of gripes, but just let me issue a final appeal. Is there anyone out there (developers are most welcome) who would like to build a 1.44 MB floppy drive adaptor? Mine works perfectly (now designed to be plugged into the socket of WD1772). It works perfectly (without any software tuning at all) with TOS and Minix with standard high density drives (it can boot from a high density floppy too). I do not like to send documents to info-leaches, but if you are willing to to buy a high density drive (and a WD1772-0202) I would very much like to share the pleasure of using the industry standard floppy disks even if your technical background is poor. Incidentally, the minimum model requires soldering 3 14-pin chips and optimum model 6 chips (about 84 soldering points). The minimum model preserves the original WD1772 and has 6 jumper lines while the optimum model has its own Wd1772 socket but has only one jumper line. Write to me if you are reading my article the first time and interested. Tsuji ytsuji@cfi.waseda.ac.jp P.S. I don't write to people who don't write to me.
csbrod@immd4.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Claus Brod) (06/11/91)
ytsuji@wucc.waseda.ac.jp (Y.Tsuji) writes: >I posted an appeal for beta testers of a 1.44 MB drive hack six weeks >ago and have received 23 responses. I admit the instructions were >not intelligible to people who had never used soldering irons, but to >be honest, I had expected at least one person would succeed to build a >fine adaptor or at least one person would be asking me to lend the >adaptor. I shouldn't have been surprised to realise how really few >people are seriously committed to ATARI ST. After all, we haven't had >real applications other than music and printing. The problem with your appeal is that we all already have HD disks connected to our STs 8-) - at least in Germany. I was one of the developpers of this hack; our article appeared in 'ST-Computer' 1/90. Commercial HD disk adapters are available at every corner, and the principles used are published. This is probably why you got such a weak response. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Claus Brod, Am Felsenkeller 2, Things. Take. Time. D-8772 Marktheidenfeld, Germany (Piet Hein) csbrod@medusa.informatik.uni-erlangen.de Claus_Brod@wue.maus.de ----------------------------------------------------------------------
ytsuji@wucc.waseda.ac.jp (Y.Tsuji) (06/12/91)
In article <1991Jun11.150348.22250@informatik.uni-erlangen.de>, csbrod@immd4.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Claus Brod) writes: --------------quotes -------- > ytsuji@wucc.waseda.ac.jp (Y.Tsuji) writes: > > >I posted an appeal for beta testers of a 1.44 MB drive hack six weeks > >ago and have received 23 responses. I admit the instructions were > >not intelligible to people who had never used soldering irons, but to > >be honest, I had expected at least one person would succeed to build a > >fine adaptor or at least one person would be asking me to lend the > >adaptor. I shouldn't have been surprised to realise how really few > >people are seriously committed to ATARI ST. After all, we haven't had > >real applications other than music and printing. > > The problem with your appeal is that we all already have HD disks connected > to our STs 8-) - at least in Germany. I was one of the developpers of this > hack; our article appeared in 'ST-Computer' 1/90. Commercial HD disk > adapters are available at every corner, and the principles used are > published. This is probably why you got such a weak response. > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Claus Brod, Am Felsenkeller 2, Things. Take. Time. > D-8772 Marktheidenfeld, Germany (Piet Hein) > csbrod@medusa.informatik.uni-erlangen.de > Claus_Brod@wue.maus.de > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------- I didn't know of your hack, I am very sorry. What I have known is a product known as HD-Module from ATARI-WORKSHOP in Windsor (England), which I assume comes from Compu-ware (I see German names like Herrman on the manual). It is the size of a WD1772 so that it can be soldered on the Wd1772 easily. If that was ever as good as it claims, I hadn't had any reason to make my own. A couple of fatal defects I couldn't stand: (1) No way of connecting two HD drives. (the interface is default GND!) (2) Have to set the step rate. Or leave the step rate 6 ms for 2DD mode. I will have to recompile or do something for all the software that supposes 3 ms the default speed (e.g. Minix). I cannot forget I left an HD floppy in the slot when I boot. (3) Non-standard formatting program (They think TOS's formatting program is good enough and use bios calls to physically format 18 sectors per track.) (4) the way LOW_DENSITY signal was created with the help of a transistor couldn't please me. The fact there are either uninterested people or people satisfied with the German product compels me to cancel my posting in a day or two. If Herr Brod and other Germans could fill the gap and advise people to contact the company that sell the adaptor, I think I shouldn't stand in their way. Tsuji
David_Galloway@mindlink.bc.ca (David Galloway) (06/13/91)
I am interested in the PAL 16V8 idea... (short enough for you?) :) David Galloway, DSI
adamd@rhi.hi.is (Adam David) (06/13/91)
In <5832@wucc.waseda.ac.jp> ytsuji@wucc.waseda.ac.jp (Y.Tsuji) writes: >[...] csbrod@immd4.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Claus Brod) writes: >> ytsuji@wucc.waseda.ac.jp (Y.Tsuji) writes: >> >I posted an appeal for beta testers of a 1.44 MB drive hack six weeks >> >ago and have received 23 responses. I responded back then and have exchanged ideas with Y.Tsuji. His suggestion for eliminating the need for changing the step rates is simple yet effective. I am surprised that for nearly 2 years (or longer?), people have struggled with fixing software drivers or they accept using a slow step rate for DD disks. There are various other hints and tips which don't seem to be mentioned in the ST-Computer 1/90 article. >> The problem with your appeal is that we all already have HD disks connected >> to our STs 8-) - at least in Germany. I was one of the developpers of this >> hack; our article appeared in 'ST-Computer' 1/90. Commercial HD disk >> adapters are available at every corner, and the principles used are >> published. This is probably why you got such a weak response. Germany is the most active area for Atari computers, but there are others. Not everyone can read German, and many users never see the magazines. The project in the magazine article seems to handle only one HD floppy drive. Obviously it works, but it didn't suit my purposes. I had a look at an HD adapter module from 'Hard and Soft' in Germany. It also could only handle one HD drive, but at least it generates the 16 MHz clock signal on board and divides it to 8 MHz for DD disks. I think this was a different product from the CompuWare HD-Modul. It doesn't buffer the side-select signal and there is no provision for fixing the media-change problem on those floppy drives which are smart enough to keep track of disk changes. >What I have known is a product known as HD-Module [...] >If that was ever as good as it claims, I hadn't had any reason to make my own. It was the same for me. I have just finished building my own circuit design on wirewrap holeboard (the first attempt was on stripboard which caused too much interference in HD-mode). Public thanks to Y.Tsuji for the correct handling of steprates in hardware, and other invaluable help. It is only right that manufacturers and users of commercial hardware, and hobbyists / hardware hackers are aware of the limitations (some of them serious) in the equipment. I'm glad I didn't have to buy a WD1772 accelerator module, only to find I couldn't use it anyway without redesigning from scratch. I'm sure others have been less fortunate and have to put up with what they bought because they had incomplete information when they bought it. Anyone who wants to build an HD floppy control board for their ST should definitely benefit from reading the 1.44 MB project docs by Y.Tsuji. -- Adam David. (adamd@rhi.hi.is)
csbrod@immd4.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Claus Brod) (06/13/91)
ytsuji@wucc.waseda.ac.jp (Y.Tsuji) writes: >I didn't know of your hack, I am very sorry. What I have known is a product >known as HD-Module from ATARI-WORKSHOP in Windsor (England), which I assume >comes from Compu-ware (I see German names like Herrman on the manual). It >is the size of a WD1772 so that it can be soldered on the Wd1772 easily. You don't have to be sorry. It's just that you wondered why interest was so low, and I tried to explain meaning to be helpful, nothing else. >If that was ever as good as it claims, I hadn't had any reason to make my >own. A couple of fatal defects I couldn't stand: > (2) Have to set the step rate. Or leave the step rate 6 ms for 2DD mode. > I will have to recompile or do something for all the software that > supposes 3 ms the default speed (e.g. Minix). I cannot forget I > left an HD floppy in the slot when I boot. This leads me to think that this is a direct copy of our solution presented in 1990 which also needed a separate step rate program. > (3) Non-standard formatting program (They think TOS's formatting > program is good enough and use bios calls to physically format > 18 sectors per track.) What's so bad about Flopfmt()? I really don't understand the problem here. > (4) the way LOW_DENSITY signal was created with the help of a transistor > couldn't please me. Our solution didn't use transistors for this purpose. >The fact there are either uninterested people or people satisfied with the >German product compels me to cancel my posting in a day or two. If Herr Brod >and other Germans could fill the gap and advise people to contact the >company that sell the adaptor, I think I shouldn't stand in their way. You don't have to cancel it just because there are other solutions for it. The fact that you have attracted about 20 people willing to build your HD circuit means that there is interest, albeit not as much as you'd like to have. In Germany, there are at least 10 commercial solutions for this purpose. One of the best is sold by OverScan GbR in Berlin. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Claus Brod, Am Felsenkeller 2, Things. Take. Time. D-8772 Marktheidenfeld, Germany (Piet Hein) csbrod@medusa.informatik.uni-erlangen.de Claus_Brod@wue.maus.de ----------------------------------------------------------------------
michaels@messua.informatik.rwth-aachen.de (Michael Schwingen) (06/13/91)
ytsuji@wucc.waseda.ac.jp (Y.Tsuji) writes: >Incidentally, the minimum model requires soldering 3 14-pin chips and >optimum model 6 chips (about 84 soldering points). The minimum model >preserves the original WD1772 and has 6 jumper lines while the optimum >model has its own Wd1772 socket but has only one jumper line. As Claus Brod said, HD drives are very common here in Germany. There is a circuit which consists of 1 (one) GAL 16V8 which has to be programmed. I have the JEDEC file to program the GAL, and I think it is PD - if it is PD and someone is interested, I could post it ... Michael Schwingen ------- please keep email from outside germany SHORT --------- michaels%cip-s01.informatik.rwth-aachen.de@unido.bitnet
Rod.Fulk@therip.FidoNet.Org (Rod Fulk) (06/14/91)
Hmm, with the new bigger then HD floppies comming out why dont we just jump to those? ;-) I am definetly interested in having a HD floppy in my machine... I have a '386 sitting here with a HD 3.5" disk in it and it would be great to only use one type of diskette. elixir@therip.fidonet.org * Origin: The R.I.P. (616)235-2313 [HST] (1:228/24)
ytsuji@wucc.waseda.ac.jp (Y.Tsuji) (06/15/91)
In article <6252@mindlink.bc.ca>, David_Galloway@mindlink.bc.ca (David Galloway) writes: > > I am interested in the PAL 16V8 idea... (short enough for you?) :) David > Galloway, DSI When the logic gates are so many, you might wish it to have only 28 pins or so. But when the total pins of logic chips are less than one PAL or GAL or whatever, I don't see any merits in using one. People use GALs to prevent others to copy the hardware. Talking of GAL/EPROM programmers, I wonder if we have loads of software in atari.archive.umich.edu (to which I am not admitted) to make use of them. There are dozens of those programmers around that can be plugged into our serial ports or parallel ports and translating msdos software shouldn't be difficult. Tsuji