mpfh@pvi.UUCP (Peter Hallett x344) (02/20/91)
In article <1991Feb11.184038.20437@batcomputer.tn.cornell.edu> hearn@batcomputer.tn.cornell.edu (hearn) writes: >Ok, which should I buy IDL or PV-wave? What are your criteria for purchase? What are your needs? Why not start with an evaluation on your own system? Is everyone in your user community comfortable with learning a new programming language or are there also some who are more comfortable with a point and click style of user interface? >They were both the same at one point. Precision Visuals has licensed the IDL software and has embarked upon a large development effort to enhance and evolve the product, documentation, and support. >But now they are competing companies with almost the same product. We have used IDL as the basis for our initial PV-WAVE product, the Command Language version. From this solid base have added several enhancements to the code and documentation. These include: - RPC support for cross-network data transfer - Floating license technology allowing license sharing on a network - User library functions for volumetric gridding, rendering and slicing, building menus with help on VT displays, plus fixing and documenting many earlier routines which we found useful. - Conversion utilities so VMS version users don't need to rewrite "old" V.1 applications to use the "new" same-as-UNIX-version - Learning aids including documentation, examples, tutorials, and sample applications which help users quickly get started and accelerate prototypes and development - A widgets toolkit to help build build applications with a GUI - Additional drivers including CGM, QMS, Tek 4510, and DEC UIS - A new Point & Click version of PV-WAVE, for users who want a full time graphical user interface, which compliments the command version. >Which one is in wider use? More than 1625 PV-WAVE licenses in twenty countries have been sold since 1988. These licenses can be shared around a network, so the number of actual users is much higher. PV-WAVE is supported by direct personnel in North America and Europe, and through distributors elsewhere around the world. >Which company actually wrote the product? PV-WAVE Command Language is based on IDL. Precision Visuals has full source code and is fully capable of making any changes or enhancements required by PV-WAVE users. While both products share a common "kernel", they now proceed along different development paths based on the priorities and resources of the two companies. One of the results of Precision Visuals' effort is PV-WAVE Point & Click, a development project which rivals the scope of the original IDL development effort. >Which has the easiest interface? I think you will find the interface for PV-WAVE Command Language (with or without the widgets toolkit) and IDL to be roughly the same, assuming you consider a command-line interface to be "easy". However, PV-WAVE Point & Click from Precision Visuals provides a MAC-like front end for Unix workstation users. While this type of interface is easiest to learn and use, we have included a macro capability, the ability to read in PV-WAVE procedures, and other functions to provide flexibility. The Point & Click version also provides Hypertext on-line help, a data previewer to help read in data, a data table viewing function, and other capabilities which speed up the process of reading, analyzing, manipulating, and displaying data. PV-WAVE users can choose the interface they prefer, Command Language or Point & Click, and still have the same benefits which make the products so useful. >Which company will stay in business? I expect that both companies will stay in business, but they will be somewhat different in direction and scope. Good question though, because it indicates that you understand that sometimes good code at a cheap price may not be the best investment in the long run. Code is only part of a "product". PVI has been in the graphics software business since 1980 and has recently reorganized to focus on the PV-WAVE family. We have over 120 employees. PV-WAVE sales have been doubling each year since we launched the product in 1988. Our research suggests that taking PV-WAVE and adding a Point & Click interface (SunView = NOW, Motif and OpenLook = very near FUTURE) will boost sales considerably. We'll be around. I hope that this helps answer the questions posted earlier about the differences between PV-WAVE and IDL. If you have *any* other questions, please feel free to contact me directly at boulder!pvi!mpfh or at 303/530-9000. Peter Hallett Senior Product Manager Precision Visuals, Inc. -- Peter Hallett 303-530-9000 x 344 Precision Visuals, Inc. {boulder, ncar}!pvi!mpfh
ali@anchor.colorado.edu (Ali Bahrami) (02/21/91)
In article <1991Feb11.184038.20437@batcomputer.tn.cornell.edu> hearn@batcomputer.tn.cornell.edu (hearn) writes: >Ok, which should I buy IDL or PV-wave? to which Peter Hallett of Precision Visuals (mpfh@pvi.UUCP) responded with two pages of blatant marketing. At RSI (The authors of IDL and the majority of what is now sold by PVI as PV-WAVE) we've been reading this newsgroup since its inception in order to gauge user concerns and opinions, but have refrained from posting so that comp.lang.idl-pvwave can remain a useful technical resource free of commercial hype. We feel, however, that PVI's inappropriate message requires this response. Such messages are not appropriate for USENET. This is a non-commercial medium and certainly not an unpaid advertising service. We believe that the original question was probably intended for *users* of the two products --- not the companies that stand to benefit financially. Clearly, we don't agree with everything PVI had to say in their posting. Rather than use further net bandwidth however, we invite anyone interested to email or phone us directly. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Research Systems, Inc. idl@boulder.colorado.edu (Internet) ORION::IDL (SPAN) IDL@COLOLASP (Bitnet) (303) 786-9900 (Voice) (303) 786-9909 (FAX) ----------------------------------------------------------------------
lbreid@athena.mit.edu (Lynn B Reid) (02/21/91)
Hooray for Ali Bahrami's call against "blatant marketing" by PV~Wave. I'm a pvwave user, but with no experience of IDL I didn't feel competent to reply to the original question of "IDL vs PVWAVE". But Peter Hallett's reply was strongly couched in marketing bells and whistles terms, none of which are available on MY lowly system (DECStation). Not that I'm against PV~Wave -- I think it is a great product, in some respects. But I'd also like to cast my vote against marketing..... -- Lynn B. Reid Ralph M. Parsons Laboratory for Water Resources and Hydrodynamics Massachusetts Institute of Technology Cambridge, MA 02139 ============================================================================== Internet: lbreid@athena.mit.edu Bitnet: lbreid@athena.mit.edu UUCP: mit-eddie!mit-athena!lbreid ============================================================================== Nobody pays me enough to care what I think.
khb@chiba.Eng.Sun.COM (Keith Bierman fpgroup) (02/21/91)
I disagree with the position that the vendors involved should avoid
reasoned debate.
It is, or should be, possible to discuss the technical contributions
without being tarred with the label "marketing".
While comp.arch often becomes a pit, what various engineers post has
been useful and/or interesting to me at least.
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Keith H. Bierman kbierman@Eng.Sun.COM | khb@chiba.Eng.Sun.COM
SMI 2550 Garcia 12-33 | (415 336 2648)
Mountain View, CA 94043khb@chiba.Eng.Sun.COM (Keith Bierman fpgroup) (02/21/91)
In article <1991Feb20.202657.21514@athena.mit.edu> lbreid@athena.mit.edu (Lynn B Reid) writes:
...
respects. But I'd also like to cast my vote against marketing.....
Fine, but the technical issues remain.
The PV wave posting was long, and admittedly not very dense
(informationwise ;>).
I'm not a user of either package; though I've been impressed by
demos... from what we've seen posted it appears:
1) basic code from IDL is basis for both products
2) PV has added point and click, and various interface goodies
what has IDL done since? Surely their product is not the same as it
'twas years ago when PV forked off, is it? Is the command language
kept in synch (viz. is there an ongoing IDL->PV code arrangement)?
As I see it, the folks who need these packages the most are practicing
scientists and applied mathfolk. Both groups tend to be rather cash
poor, and spend all their money on hardware (thankfully; as I do work
for one at the moment ;>). Thus, $n000 packages aren't on everyones
desk. These people are likely to be choosy about what they do buy, and
rightfully so.
So the question remains. What are the technical differences (other
than point and click front end)?
--
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Keith H. Bierman kbierman@Eng.Sun.COM | khb@chiba.Eng.Sun.COM
SMI 2550 Garcia 12-33 | (415 336 2648)
Mountain View, CA 94043eckman@asdsun.larc.nasa.gov (Richard Eckman) (02/21/91)
In article <KHB.91Feb20141957@chiba.Eng.Sun.COM> khb@chiba.Eng.Sun.COM (Keith Bierman fpgroup) writes: > >So the question remains. What are the technical differences (other >than point and click front end)? While I can't comment directly on the technical differences between IDL and PV-Wave, I have been using IDL for over 10 years and have used a demo copy of PV-Wave. I still remember the days when !HIVOLT was a system variable back on the PDPs! My impression is that there's minimal difference. It's clear that the Precision Visual folks do have some new features but these appear to be related primarily to support new graphics devices (e.g., TEK 4100). The beauty of IDL for the scientific researcher is the ability to use it as a programming language. It's far more than just a plotting package. While point and click interfaces might be great for managerial types, it seems to defeat the whole purpose of the package. Admittedly, I haven't tried the new PV-Wave point and click front end, but that's my initial impression. Precision Visual does also offer a support hotline and a slightly prettier manual but I've never had difficulty in getting the RSI folks to solve a problem in short order. The main difference that pushed me towards RSI, rather than PV-Wave, was cost. IDL was substantially less expensive for our VAXstations and DECstations. I'd personally rather deal with the people who wrote the original software, no matter how competent the folks at Precision Visual clearly are. Richard Eckman NASA Langley Research Center eckman@dobson.larc.nasa.gov disclaimer: Opinions are obviously my own, not those of NASA.
sterner@warper.jhuapl.edu (Ray Sterner) (02/22/91)
eckman@asdsun.larc.nasa.gov (Richard Eckman) writes: > While I can't comment directly on the technical differences between IDL >and PV-Wave, I have been using IDL for over 10 years and have used a demo >copy of PV-Wave. I still remember the days when !HIVOLT was a system >variable back on the PDPs! My impression is that there's minimal difference. >It's clear that the Precision Visual folks do have some new features but these >appear to be related primarily to support new graphics devices (e.g., TEK >4100). > The beauty of IDL for the scientific researcher is the ability to use it >as a programming language. It's far more than just a plotting package. >While point and click interfaces might be great for managerial types, >it seems to defeat the whole purpose of the package. Admittedly, >I haven't tried the new PV-Wave point and click front end, but that's my >initial impression. I agree. I've been using IDL for about 7 years and have pretty much abandoned other languages. I enjoy it when people come to me and say "but IDL can't do that" and I show them how to do it. I've always had excellent response from the IDL people, no problem getting help. I don't know much about PV-WAVE except that it is based on IDL and as a language is very much the same. As far as point and click, I've been writing such programs in IDL for awhile using the wmenu function. This probably isn't the feature that PV-WAVE means, but it works just fine. This feature will be much improved in future releases of IDL I'm told. What amazes me most about IDL (and PV-Wave) is that anyone would still use FORTRAN or similar languages. Ray Sterner sterner%str.decnet@warper.jhuapl.edu Johns Hopkins University North latitude 39.16 degrees. Applied Physics Laboratory West longitude 76.90 degrees. Laurel, MD 20723-6099