ejp@icd.ab.com (Ed Prochak) (07/16/90)
In article <18454@rpp386.cactus.org>, jfh@rpp386.cactus.org (John F. Haugh II) writes: > In article <1990Jul11.233006.17884@nmt.edu> john@nmt.edu (John Shipman) writes: > >At New Mexico Tech, nobody gets a BS in CS without going > >through both the compiler class and the OS class; it's been > >this way for twenty years. And these aren't just lecture > >classes, either. Every student implements a whole compiler > >and a whole operating system from scratch, working in a team > >with one or two other students. > > At The University of New Orleans everyone was required to take > a theory course in languages, operating systems and so on, but > there were few, if any, courses where students were required > to actually write useful code. A suggestion to one of my > professors to implement a PL/1 compiler as a project for a > special studies course was met with incredible disinterest. > > Many universities that I am aware of take a dim view at students > working together on large projects. The fear being that the > students would cheat or slack off. The only course I had which > produced something "useful" was an advanced O/S course taught > by Jim "Nothead" Thomas. The course was excellent from a learning > experience, but a dismal failure as the O/S we wrote refused to > do much of anything. Jim Thomas can be found someplace in New > Mexico [ UNM I think ... ] working on Yet Another Degree. > -- > John F. Haugh II UUCP: ...!cs.utexas.edu!rpp386!jfh > Ma Bell: (512) 832-8832 Domain: jfh@rpp386.cactus.org > Proud Pilot of RS/6000 Serial #1472 At the University of Lowell, MA, the OS and Compiler courses are required core courses. The OS instructor did not require groups to work together, but he allowed it. (As it turned out my partner dropped the course, so I had to go it alone.) I also took the digital design Lab course which required project teams. We have a three person team and did very well in the course primarily, I think, because we did good team management. We worked well together, even though in the end not all of our hardware was finished (though everything that was finished worked). BTW, this was all for a Master's degree in Electrical Engineering with a concentration in Computer Engineering (Software option). Overall, it was a very good school, with some excellent evening instructors, and I think the program is getting even better. I really don't see why there is a problem in software courses with team projects. If there are also exams and other grading sourses within the same course (e.g. presentations, verbal exams), then at project completion, the instructor should have some idea of the ability of each student and how each may have contributed. In the Lab course, we had regular "status" meetings with the instructor where we described what we did so far, demonstrate it if possible, and get quizzed on various aspects. The OS course had midterm and final exams, and (if I recall correctly) the project teams were asked to do a little more than the single person teams. All reasonable requirements, I think. As an undergraduate in Physics labs, we often had to work with at least one partner. Other lab courses were that way too. Why not software?? (NOTE: other posters have pointed out schools with team project related courses in software. So the issue is why haven't the other curriculum's caught up??) (Pardon the inconvenience during our remodelling of the signature file) Edward J. Prochak (216)646-4663 I think. {cwjcc,pyramid,decvax,uunet}!ejp@icd.ab.com I think I am. Allen-Bradley Industrial Computer Div. Therefore, I AM! Highland Heights,OH 44143 I think? --- Moody Blues
reggie@dinsdale.paradyne.com (George W. Leach) (07/17/90)
In article <1522@abvax.UUCP> ejp@icd.ab.com (Ed Prochak) writes: >At the University of Lowell, MA, the OS and Compiler courses >are required core courses. The OS instructor did not require >groups to work together, but he allowed it. (As it turned out >my partner dropped the course, so I had to go it alone.) I >also took the digital design Lab course which required project >teams. We have a three person team and did very well in the course >primarily, I think, because we did good team management. We worked >well together, even though in the end not all of our hardware >was finished (though everything that was finished worked). During the initial CS courses that I took all work was done on an individual basis. I felt this was most appropriate, but once one has begun to become proficient at working on lab assignments there certainly is a great deal of benefit to learning how to work with others. Several junior and senior level courses required group projects. Perhaps the best one was a course where the group first had to come up with a project and write the requirements/specifications. After this portion of the project was graded the instructor took them back and redistributed them to other groups who then had to implement the project from the spec! Negotiations between the group who originated the spec and the group that implemented the project were encouraged. It was a great learning experience. BTW: I had been burnt on a number of group projects in the past due to one member either just not showing up or not pulling his/her weight. The group would receive a grade as a group, so the group was responsible. Having to deal with the situation can be very much like real life. [stuff deleted] >I really don't see why there is a problem in software courses >with team projects. If there are also exams and other grading >sourses within the same course (e.g. presentations, verbal exams), >then at project completion, the instructor should have some idea >of the ability of each student and how each may have contributed. Ah, but that would be more difficult for the instructor, wouldn't it? Remember all the discussions over the years about automatic grading programs, true/false and fill in the blank questions on tests versus problem solving? George W. Leach AT&T Paradyne (uunet|att)!pdn!reggie Mail stop LG-133 Phone: 1-813-530-2376 P.O. Box 2826 FAX: 1-813-530-8224 Largo, FL 34649-2826 USA
ejp@icd.ab.com (Ed Prochak) (07/25/90)
In article <1990Jul17.120036.8944@pdn.paradyne.com>, reggie@dinsdale.paradyne.com (George W. Leach) writes: [stuff deleted] > Several junior and senior level courses required group projects. > Perhaps the best one was a course where the group first had to come up > with a project and write the requirements/specifications. After this > portion of the project was graded the instructor took them back and > redistributed them to other groups who then had to implement the project > from the spec! Negotiations between the group who originated the spec > and the group that implemented the project were encouraged. It was a > great learning experience. > > > BTW: I had been burnt on a number of group projects in the past > due to one member either just not showing up or not pulling his/her > weight. The group would receive a grade as a group, so the group was > responsible. Having to deal with the situation can be very much like > real life. In the same lab course I mentioned there was a second group. (about 5 people in their group vs. 3 in ours) They decided to go the safe route and do the traditional microcoded microprocessor. Somewhere along the way, they lost sight of the goal. For example, one evening as our group was getting code prepared for burning proms, they were all excited about getting their reset circuit working. I mean that was all they had on the board was just a reset circuit!! At the end of the semester, they still had very little built. They got an incomplete. (And we were scared that we would get a bad grade because we didn'd finish the second half of our project. With the instructor's help that last day of class, we found out why we could not communicate with the graphics chip. Still, we got a lot completed and working at that point.) > > [stuff deleted] > > >I really don't see why there is a problem in software courses > >with team projects. If there are also exams and other grading > >sourses within the same course (e.g. presentations, verbal exams), > >then at project completion, the instructor should have some idea > >of the ability of each student and how each may have contributed. > > Ah, but that would be more difficult for the instructor, wouldn't > it? Remember all the discussions over the years about automatic grading > programs, true/false and fill in the blank questions on tests versus > problem solving? > > George W. Leach AT&T Paradyne > (uunet|att)!pdn!reggie Mail stop LG-133 > Phone: 1-813-530-2376 P.O. Box 2826 > FAX: 1-813-530-8224 Largo, FL 34649-2826 USA yea, I remember automatic grading, etc. Still, That's just an excuse for avoiding thorough evaluations. And I haven't seen too many software courses that used fill-in-the-blank style tests. It is probably more prevalent to have automatic grading in the Social science classes nowadays?? (my undergraduate degree was 1976, so my view is somewhat dated). But George, we do agree that it can be done. Edward J. Prochak Voice: work-(216)646-4663 home-(216)349-1821 Email: {cwjcc,pyramid,decvax,uunet}!ejp@icd.ab.com USmail: Allen-Bradley, 747 Alpha Drive, Highland Heights,OH 44143 Wellington: ENGINEERING is "the ability to do for one dollar, what any damn fool can do for two."