dwight@iwarpk0.intel.com (Dwight McDuffee) (09/06/90)
This is posted for a friend. Please respond to the net or to Duane at dlundste@ncube.com. If you now own a Packard Bell computer or if you are considering purchasing one, read this first. This is an actual experience. Hopefully, you won't experience the same. About a year and a half ago, we purchased a Packard Bell PB-500 XT computer from Costco Wholesale (a membership wholesale buying club, for those who are unfamiliar with Costco). The computer was purchased to do small business accounting, and proved appropriate for the application. Costco has always been considered a reputable dealer, always standing behind the merchandise they sell, and always honoring returns, etc. Costco's price was the best around, so we didn't hesitate to purchase the computer there. Everything went along just fine for about one year (the length of the manufacturer's warranty), when the monitor up and blinked out. In a hurry to get the monitor repaired under warranty, we tried to contact Packard Bell. The service number published in the literature that came with the computer was no longer in service. The 800 number provided simply rang and rang, no one ever answered it. Finally, in desperation, we went back to Costco and related our story to them. They tried to reach Packard Bell using the telephone numbers published on the new equipment that they were still selling, and still couldn't get through. Costco ended up exchanging the monitor for a new, working one. I doubt they ever got their money out of that deal. ***Note that Costco deserves special recognition here for standing beside their customers after the sale. As you can see here, Costco upheld the warranty even though the manufacturer could not be reached. Costco has worked with us every step of the way throughout this ordeal. The management at Costco will be getting a letter describing this problem and recommending Packard Bell computers be dropped as a product. The fact that we couldn't reach Packard Bell concerned us, but, since the computer was now out of warranty, we didn't follow up as we probably should have. We should have written a letter to Costco and to Packard Bell, but we didn't. Again, everything was fine. . .until about a month ago. We started getting an error message during power-up (during the RAM self-test) that said that a portion of RAM was faulty. This was a serious problem because after printing the error message, the system thought there was only 129K of RAM; not nearly enough to run any real applications. Occasionally, we could power cycle the system and the error would clear up, but usually we were just plain stuck. We checked around to various repair shops and found that most could not turn the repair around fast enough for our needs (remember, this was a business system, one that was relied upon for basic business functions). We called the local "factory authorized service" place and they thought they could have it repaired in a day. Great! So we took it there for repair. After some hassles with trying to get the computer to fail at the dealer's shop, they finally determined that a RAM chip was bad, but they still thought they could have it repaired in time. Then came the bad news: the RAM chips are not socketed on this motherboard, and because of "specially manufactured, multi-etch, blah blah blah boards," the chip could not be replaced by the service shop, it had to be repaired at the factory. Still, the news didn't seem all that bad. Then they told us that the factory uses a board swap policy, and that if we paid $325, we would get a new motherboard. Imagine paying $325 for an XT motherboard!!!! We decided to do some checking around before jumping into this expensive repair. The obvious thing to do was to call Packard Bell service. We tried the originally provided number, and someone answered using some strange business name. I said, "Is this Packard Bell?" She said that they had a new number, and she gave it to me. The first number was toll-free, this number was a toll call. I called the toll number and a recording said "Thank you for calling Packard Bell. If you know the 4-digit extension of the party you are trying to reach, enter it now. If you don't know the party's extension, or if you are dialing from a rotary telphone, please hold the line and an operator will assist you." Oh, great! I held the line. "Thank you for calling Packard Bell. If you know the 4-digit extension of the party . . ." I hung up. When I tried the number an hour later (don't forget that these are toll calls!), I got the same recorded message, but this time someone answered. "Thank you for calling Packard Bell." I said, "Can I speak to someone in service please?" "One moment." Then, another recording: "Thank you for calling Packard Bell Customer Service. All available Customer Service representatives are busy right now, but if you'll hold the line, your call will be handled in the order in which it was received." I held. Soon an operator answered, "Customer Service message center." I said, "Does this mean I should leave a message?" "Yes." I said, "Would it be possible for me to speak with someone in Service?" (annoyed) "Sorry, everyone is busy right now." I said, "Can I assume that someone will return my call?" (more annoyed) She said, "Yes, someone will call withing the next 8 to 10 business hours." I gave up and left my name and number. Now, that's service. Well, I'm sure you're dying to know. Did they call? NO. After waiting the two days (I gave them two days. I thought that was fair.), I decided we'd better get the repair done so we could resume work back at the business. So, I called the dealer and authorized the repair. I called the toll number at Packard Bell again, and again got the Customer Service message center. I told the operator that I had already left a message and wanted to check in again to find out if anyone was really going to call. I told her to shuffle my original message to the top of the heap. She said she would do her best. (You can hardly get upset with the poor operator. She was doing all she could do!) A full 4 days later (Friday, August 31), I got a call. "Hello, this is so and so from Packard Bell." I was shocked. I said nothing. "Did anyone return your call?" Finally, I said, "No. I'm glad you called. . ." He interrupted me, "I'm not from Customer Service. I'm just calling to see if you have been helped yet." I said, "No, I haven't." (I can't even believe this!) He said, "Someone will call you before the end of the day. If not today, by Tuesday, for sure." By now, I don't even know what I'm going to say if they ever call back. COME ON, PACKARD BELL. Is this a business you're running, or what?!? The dealer says you're not unresponsive, you're just busy. Seem's funny to me that you can meet the demand in your manufacturing facility, but you can't meet the demand for service. This is one person who will NEVER buy another Packard Bell product. Well, news reader, if you're still with me, maybe you can tell me a couple of things: 1. Have you gotten any better response from Packard Bell than I have? Is this a one-time (or two-time, I guess) problem? Has anyone gotten good service from Packard Bell? 2. Is it true that you can't so much as replace a RAM chip on one of these boards? And if it's true, why would anyone design a board that way? 3. Anyone out there in netland from Packard Bell who wishes to comment on this situation? At this point, I'm hoping you've sold your last computer. If you care to comment, send email or call me at (503)629-5088, 8AM to 5PM, Pacific Time. Thanks for listening. Any discussion on this topic is appreciated. Please post to this newsgroup so that everyone can share the news. Duane S. Lundsten dlundste@ncube.com
kevdavis@wpi.wpi.edu (Kevin S. Davis) (09/07/90)
Just to let everyone out there know that I personally have not had any problems with Packard Bell. I have called there technical service people and they have been very helpful in figuring problems out. For the service department, I really haven't delt with them personally, but a friend of mine had no problems getting Packard Bell to service his computer while it was still under the garuntee.... If you would like to have the numbers to the service department that I have, just email me and I will give them to you. Kevin Davis kevdavis@wpi.wpi.edu
lcp@uhifa.ifa.hawaii.edu (Lisa Paton) (09/07/90)
In article <1990Sep6.154721.12322@iwarp.intel.com>, dwight@iwarpk0.intel.com (Dwight McDuffee) writes: > > > This is posted for a friend. Please respond to the net or to Duane at > dlundste@ncube.com. > > > If you now own a Packard Bell computer or if you are considering > purchasing one, read this first. This is an actual experience. > Hopefully, you won't experience the same. > [stuff deleted] > 1. Have you gotten any better response from Packard Bell than I have? > Is this a one-time (or two-time, I guess) problem? Has anyone gotten > good service from Packard Bell? > I'm sorry to tell you this, but at LEAST 50% of the computer related companies I deal with handle customer service exactly as you've described it. I don't expect anything else from them anymore. I currently maintain a couple of Packard Bell machines (all out of warrenty) but haven't had your type of problems, so I can't comment on them. > > Thanks for listening. Any discussion on this topic is appreciated. > Please post to this newsgroup so that everyone can share the news. > > Duane S. Lundsten > dlundste@ncube.com Lisa The revolution will not be televised ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Lisa Paton snail: 2680 Woodlawn Dr. lcp@galileo.ifa.hawaii.edu Honolulu, HI 96816 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
davecb@yunexus.YorkU.CA (David Collier-Brown) (09/07/90)
dlundste@ncube.com (Duane S. Lundsten) writes: >2. Is it true that you can't so much as replace a RAM chip on one of >these boards? And if it's true, why would anyone design a board that >way? Well, its possible to replace chips with extreme care by piggy-backing. First you carefully cut the chip away from its pins, as close to the chip body as possible. This leaves a forest of legs sticking up. Glue a small spacer in so that the replacement chip sits high off the board with its pins firmly against the old pins, with enough space for a clip-on heat sink to be clipped to the bottom of the old pin during the soldering process. Now solder the pins together, being carefull to not let too much heat leak down the old pin into the board... You see what I mean about ``extreme care''? Of course, if you add too much capacitance, you still lose. --dave -- David Collier-Brown, | davecb@Nexus.YorkU.CA, ...!yunexus!davecb or 72 Abitibi Ave., | {toronto area...}lethe!dave Willowdale, Ontario, | "And the next 8 man-months came up like CANADA. 416-223-8968 | thunder across the bay" --david kipling
v116kzmd@ubvmsd.cc.buffalo.edu (Dave Archer) (09/07/90)
>1. Have you gotten any better response from Packard Bell than I have? >Is this a one-time (or two-time, I guess) problem? Has anyone gotten >good service from Packard Bell? I've heard from at least more than one person, that Packard Bell isn't the greatest of companys. Never anything specific. >2. Is it true that you can't so much as replace a RAM chip on one of >these boards? And if it's true, why would anyone design a board that >way? Anything is possible. Even if a ram chip is soldered right to the board, it CAN be removed. I've done things like this plenty of times. The problem is that modern computer motherboards with their extremely thin traces and multi-multi-layering, are not the type of board that you want to be unsoldering chips from. Most likely the repair shop simply didn't want to do it. Most likely because if they did, and they screwed up the board, they'd probably be stuck with it (ie, Packard Bell wouldn't take it back in a motherboard swap). As for why they'd do it.. Probably has to do with cost. They might claim it makes for a more reliable system, but that's fairly silly. Even the cost issue is silly, since sockets are not exactly that expensive. I've never even heard of a modern clone that had non-socketed ram chips in it. This is perhaps another sign of why people keep telling me Packard Bell is not the greatest of companys. --- Note: I do not represent my employer or school, & sometimes not even myself. Dave Archer | Internet: V116KZND@UBVMS.CC.BUFFALO.EDU ! | Bitnet: V116KZND@UBVMS.BITNET
hardin@hpindda.cup.hp.com (John Hardin) (09/08/90)
v116kzmd@ubvmsd.cc.buffalo.edu (Dave Archer) writes: [Re: question about why a company would solder RAM to motherboard] > As for why they'd do it.. Probably has to do with cost. They might claim it > makes for a more reliable system, but that's fairly silly. Even the cost issue > is silly, since sockets are not exactly that expensive. I've never even heard > of a modern clone that had non-socketed ram chips in it. This is perhaps > another sign of why people keep telling me Packard Bell is not the greatest of > companys. ---------- I suspect the greatest savings from not using sockets comes from being able to use auto-insertion machines to assemble the board. Things may have changed in recent years, but I believe socketted parts must be hand inserted. If you don't use sockets, an auto-insertion machine can put all the chips on the board and then a wave solder machine can solder them all in at once. Cuts labor cost. John Hardin Hewlett Packard hardin@hpindgh.hp.com ----------
battle@umbc3.UMBC.EDU (Rick) (09/08/90)
I feel sorry for the person who had the problem with PB. However, may I suggest that when ANYONE buys a computer for business (it has to be up all the time or money is lost) use the individual do some real home work to find out the realibility of the machine. In the most recent issue of PC Magazine realibiliby surveys were taken and the best machines were documented. The most reliable = HP. (I have zip to do with HP so cool the flames) The best way to look at this situation is this.... Yes we all like to save money but, BUT, if you spend a grand or two more on a machine are you going to notice that grand or two a few years later after a correspondingly long period of successful business activity? NO, NO ,NO. The moral is this, don't buy for today, buy for tomorrow and AMORTIZE. Again, I am sorry to hear about the PB experience, but you get what you pay for. Better luck next time.
dmlkm@cbnewse.att.com (david.e.montalbano) (09/09/90)
I have has a very bad experience with PB also. I had the same waiting and "I'll call you back crap." But, I had 2 PB computers. The 1st one, the motherboard went out after a month. (I had the 1st 4 months free on site service so I wasn't too upset, since they said they would come and fix it). The man came, I must point out the man was from AT&T Paradyne, and he could not fix it. He had to take it in. He tried numerous things. The reason why he couldn't fix was because the mother board he brouht new, was a defect. Well after getting it fixed, it broke about 3 more times. Finially, I wrote the company a letter saying I want a brand new one. I got a call and they said "we can have the guy fix yours." I said no. Well the next day a package service came and picked up the computer. PB paid shipping and all. They said I should have the new one within 3 days. It turned out to take 3 weeks. The nice thing was they sent me a better computer. 60meg HD instead of 40. When I went to use the thing the Hard drive controller was floating around inside the computer. I had to plug it in the expansion slot. Knowing my experiences, I didn't put the computer back together until i tried it. It did not work. The man came and took it and brougt me back a repaired one. (He ended up visiting my house 7 or 8 times). We'll while he was here I tried it. It worked fine. After he left it worked for only 5 minutes and then it would not do a thing. I ended up calling PB, and demanding my money back. They did give it all back. Now I sit here on my new AT&T 386SX/EL. I love it. Haven't had any problems yet.
bcw@rti.rti.org (Bruce Wright) (09/09/90)
In article <35112@eerie.acsu.Buffalo.EDU>, v116kzmd@ubvmsd.cc.buffalo.edu (Dave Archer) writes: > (about Packard Bell ...) > >2. Is it true that you can't so much as replace a RAM chip on one of > >these boards? And if it's true, why would anyone design a board that > >way? > > Anything is possible. Even if a ram chip is soldered right to the board, it > CAN be removed. I've done things like this plenty of times. The problem is > that modern computer motherboards with their extremely thin traces and > multi-multi-layering, are not the type of board that you want to be > unsoldering chips from. [...] > > As for why they'd do it.. Probably has to do with cost. They might claim it > makes for a more reliable system, but that's fairly silly. Even the cost > issue is silly, since sockets are not exactly that expensive. The most common problem with socketed chips is that the pins get bent and don't make good contact with the socket; it is somewhat less common that the chip itself goes bad. So it probably _does_ increase reliability, but at the cost that if something _does_ go wrong, it's much harder to fix. IMHO, socketed chips are better since neither of these types of failures is all that common, and a bent pin is usually fairly easy to fix. Pins don't usually get bent unless someone has his hands in the machine; users who have no experience dealing with chip sockets shouldn't be messing with the machine's innards at that level. Cost is certainly a consideration for cheap machines, but the issue is NOT the cost of the sockets (which as you note is pretty small), but the cost of putting the RAM chips into the sockets, which requires either fairly expensive additional equipment or a human assembly line worker. Directly soldered chips don't have quite as much of a cost problem because essentially all motherboards are soldered with wave solder machines, and it's quite automated. (It's quite true that wave solder machines are themselves expensive, but they can stamp out boards pretty fast and reliably, and are considered cheaper than manual assembly for any significant number of boards. Chips can be placed on the boards by automated equipment, but equipment to put chips into sockets is going to be different and cost more than just putting the chips directly into the boards). Bruce C. Wright
toma@tekgvs.LABS.TEK.COM (Tom Almy) (09/10/90)
In article <35112@eerie.acsu.Buffalo.EDU> v116kzmd@ubvmsd.cc.buffalo.edu (Dave Archer) writes: [Packard Bell solders in RAM chips rather than using sockets] >As for why they'd do it.. Probably has to do with cost. They might claim it >makes for a more reliable system, but that's fairly silly. Even the cost issue >is silly, since sockets are not exactly that expensive. I've never even heard >of a modern clone that had non-socketed ram chips in it. This is perhaps >another sign of why people keep telling me Packard Bell is not the greatest of >companys. There's more at work here than manufacturing vs repair cost tradeoffs. Soldering in the chips is certainly more reliable, and if the board manufacturing costs are low enough they might not bother with board repairs and just scrap the board. Here are the problems with sockets: 1. Parts can vibrate loose in shipment, causeing DOAs. 2. Heat cycling (from powering up and down every day) can cause parts to walk out of the sockets. 3. Unless hermetically sealed (not likely) or gold contacts are used (rare these days, and expensive) connections can corrode. I've seen all three of these happen, and it's not rare at all. Tom Almy toma@tekgvs.labs.tek.com Standard Disclaimers Apply
dgil@pa.reuter.COM (Dave Gillett) (09/11/90)
In <1990Sep6.154721.12322@iwarp.intel.com> dwight@iwarpk0.intel.com (Dwight McDuffee) writes: >This is posted for a friend. Please respond to the net or to Duane at >dlundste@ncube.com. >1. Have you gotten any better response from Packard Bell than I have? >Is this a one-time (or two-time, I guess) problem? Has anyone gotten >good service from Packard Bell? Well, I've never had any of their equipment fail on me. I believe there is some sort of partnership between P-B and Tatung; each sells a complete product line, some of which is made by one company, some by the other, and some is OEM gear from third parties. Specifically, I think the P-B and Tatung AT clones we had were actually manuafctured by Intel as OEM products, with P-B and Tatung each providing their own BIOS ROMs and labels. >2. Is it true that you can't so much as replace a RAM chip on one of >these boards? And if it's true, why would anyone design a board that >way? Lots of companies build boards this way. Consider that a silicon chip is basically a rock with some interesting electrical properties. If it's good enough to pass initial burn-in and testing, the odds that it will fail under normal use are pretty small. So suppose you're building huge numbers of these boxes, only a small fraction of which are expected to fail. How high a failure rate would be needed to justify the parts cost of the sockets, the asssembly cost of inserting the chips in the sockets, the indexing cost of maintaining separate spare-parts inventories of each single type of chip, and the diagnostic cost of tracking flaws to the individual chip? (Recall that these latter will be borne by the manufacturer if the machine fails while under warranty. Recall too that a flaw diagnosed as being "in" a particular chip may actually be in a circuit board trace leading to/from that chip--or in the socket! Some proportion of weird failures encountered by users are fixed by re-seating socketted chips...) So when you ask why "anyone" would design a board that way, "anyone" turns out to be practically every manufacturer in the entire microelectronics--including microcomputer--industry. Dave
dlee@dtoa1.dt.navy.mil (Lee) (09/14/90)
Dwight: Regarding your troubles with Packard Bell... I was going to buy a 286 based Packard Bell this past Christmas from Price Club here in the Washington, DC area. A situation much similar to yours. The cost and the machines' capability was the best deal around. After much price comparison, I decided to get the Packard Bell for Christmas. Talking with the salesmen changed my mind.. he said that returns on Packard Bell was running about 40% from customers and that the Vendex Headstart unit was a better deal even though it cost about $200.00 more. Well.. I said to myself this guy must think I stupid!! After much additional shopping around I decided the guy was better nice and must know what he's talking about and since Price club workers are not on commission what's he got to gain. Eventually I ended up buying the Vendex.. How this relates to your problem is as follows... My oldest is in college, second year student who claims he's outgrown the IBM PC Junior (640K ram) for school and needs a bigger machine..ie. can't run his fancy games due to lack of VGA color monitor capability. He really only needs word processing capability for college at this stage. Well, this summer he looked around for a system and settled on the Packard Bell 386SX unit at Price Club. I told him to be careful, but he said it was a great deal.. $1900.00 for 2 meg ram and an 84 meg hard disc, VGA color monitor with 5 1/4 and 3 1/2 inch high density floppy discs drives. He did buy one last month before he went back to school. Well as you've said, the toll free help number is useless.. he called several times for minor information, it is a computer recorded message setup for touch tone telephones. You key in certain codes depending upon your problem; if you want to talk to a "live" person, call back on a number where you pay the charges between the hours of 7 to 8 pm EST. My son decided to ignore this service. The biggest problem he had was with the color monitor. We returned the monitor twice and the cpu once.. there is a faint but discernable thin purple line at the edge of the crt screen. It is not very noticable when the screen is filled with a picture, but is very annoying when the DOS cursor is the only object on the screen. We finally decided that it was just the way it is... perhaps software adjustable or poor graphics board design??? I had heard from some of the computers types in my office that Packard Bell should be avoid as their computers are made up of "non-standard" boards... Your notice does not leave me with a feeling in terms of my son having trouble free use with his Packard Bell...
brad@looking.on.ca (Brad Templeton) (09/15/90)
If you're confident of your own software skills (ie. you wont need help using the machine) then find a local generic dealer you can trust and buy his/her no-name clone. You will save a good piece of money, and most of these clones are just as reliable as anybody else's machine. If you have a hardware problem, it's better to have somebody local to deal with it. You should be able to find one who will give good guarantees and service. Most often quick part swap. -- Brad Templeton, ClariNet Communications Corp. -- Waterloo, Ontario 519/884-7473
stevewa@upvax.UUCP (Steve Ward) (09/16/90)
I bought the Packard Bell laser printer at Costco (wholesale warehouse) early this year. This is a TEC based printer, like the Epson, Mannesman- Tally, Toshiba, Facit, and many others. Unlike the other brands, Packard Bell includes an extra meg of RAM in the printer, for a total of 1.5MB. So far the printer has performed flawlessly. I had some questions (support for non-HP font cartridges, PostScript and the like). The toll-free auto-menu voice-mail ultra-fancy shmancy system is indeed worthless. However, by the time I finally got to a human, I was told to give my name and number, and a techie would call me back within 48 hours. By this point I'd given up, but I thought what the heck and gave them the number. They did indeed call back, and the fellow who talked to me (his dime!) was very knowledgeable and helpful. So, the answer is, it does take a while to get through all the garbage red tape, but once you do, their people seem to know what they're talking about pretty well. Responses in the recent PC Magazine reliability survey seem to confirm my theory. I can't comment on repair problems, because I haven't had any difficulties with the laser printer yet (fingers crossed). Steve -- | Steve Ward Jr. appears courtesy of | stevewa@upvax.UUCP | | Univ. of Portland, Portland, OR | !tektronix!upvax!stevewa | | (insert disclaimer here) | upvax!stevewa@tektronix.TEK.COM | | --If all else fails, try: tektronix.TEK.COM!upvax!stevewa@uunet.uu.net |