mikes@pedsga.UUCP (Mike Shulman <shulman>) (10/26/90)
Well, like the subject line says, I seem to have a masacistic HD. It's a Seagate ST125 (20 Meg, 3.5 format), and every once in a while when I turn on my computer it refuses to spin up. The solution seems to be to take it out and bang it hard a few times. Then re-install it, and it works like a champ...until the next time it feels like doing this. Now, I've heard that this is a known problem with some older HDs of some brands, so I was wondering - is there also a known solution? (Aside from buying a new HD, wiseguys!) Thanks for your replys! - Mike
jcmorris@mwunix.mitre.org (Joe Morris) (10/26/90)
In a recent article mikes@pedsga.UUCP (Mike Shulman) writes: > Well, like the subject line says, I seem to have a masacistic HD. It's >a Seagate ST125 (20 Meg, 3.5 format), and every once in a while when I >turn on my computer it refuses to spin up. The solution seems to be to >take it out and bang it hard a few times. Then re-install it, and it >works like a champ...until the next time it feels like doing this. >Now, I've heard that this is a known problem with some older HDs of some >brands, so I was wondering - is there also a known solution? (Aside from >buying a new HD, wiseguys!) Have you talked to Seagate about this? I don't have any experience with their drive as such, but last year IBM replaced a slew of drives (primarily in the PS/2-70 series) which showed this symptom. The problem was that the lubricant on the drive shaft was leaking out, and the shaft was binding to a degree that the motor didn't have enough torque to break it loose after it had been stopped for a while. (My machine developed the symptom only after I heard of the recall...execllent timing!) A temporary bypass could be to pick up the entire unit (DON'T bang the disk!) and rotate it sharply to rotate the drive case around the platter...thus breaking the shaft free. Put the case back down an power up with fingers crossed. I expect that the trouble spot is inside the sealed area, so I don't know of anything you can do to fix it unless you've got a REAL clean room handy. Joe Morris
sonny@charybdis.harris-atd.com (Bob Davis) (10/26/90)
In article <1447@pedsga.UUCP> mikes@pedsga.UUCP (Mike Shulman <shulman>,SPCSYS,7586) writes: > > Well, like the subject line says, I seem to have a masacistic HD. It's >a Seagate ST125 (20 Meg, 3.5 format), and every once in a while when I >turn on my computer it refuses to spin up. The solution seems to be to >take it out and bang it hard a few times. Then re-install it, and it >works like a champ...until the next time it feels like doing this. >Now, I've heard that this is a known problem with some older HDs of some >brands, so I was wondering - is there also a known solution? (Aside from >buying a new HD, wiseguys!) > Thanks for your replys! > I have a Seagate ST-138R 32M RLL drive that developed this problem after one year of use (after warranty). And for the past year I have had to "kick-start" the *@#?! thing...I always have the most Angelic Thoughts of Seagate as I go through this daily ritual for the gods of Mediocrity, paying daily penance for my Abject Poverty. And, Folks, it ain't like this problem is infrequent. One hears of the problem ALL THE TIME. WHY DON'T THEY MAKE THE PRODUCTS RIGHT? Haven't corners been cut a bit too close somewhere in not giving the spindle motors quite enough torque? Or something like that? On a more helpful note, it probably is not a great idea to continue beating the drive into performing its intended function. I don't know about your ST125, but on my ST138R, I can actually spin the platters by using a credit card to reach in above the cable connectors to move an exposed "drum" connected to the platters. Spinning the "drum" for one full turn and then putting the drive back into the machine usually does the trick for me. You have my sympathy. ______________________________________________________________________________ Bob Davis, UofALA'66 \\ INTERNET : sonny@trantor.harris-atd.com | _ _ | Harris Corporation, ESS \\ UUCP : ...!uunet!x102a!trantor!sonny |_| |_| | | Advanced Technology Dept.\\ AETHER : K4VNO |==============|_/\/\/\|_| PO Box 37, MS 3A/1912 \\ VOICE : (407) 727-5886 | I SPEAK ONLY | |_| |_| | Melbourne, FL 32902 \\ FAX : (407) 729-2537 | FOR MYSELF. |_________|
aiko@tulip.cs.odu.edu (John K Hayes) (10/27/90)
>In article <1447@pedsga.UUCP> mikes@pedsga.UUCP (Mike Shulman <shulman>,SPCSYS,7586) writes: >> >> Well, like the subject line says, I seem to have a masacistic HD. It's >>a Seagate ST125 (20 Meg, 3.5 format), and every once in a while when I >>turn on my computer it refuses to spin up. The solution seems to be to >>take it out and bang it hard a few times. Then re-install it, and it >>works like a champ...until the next time it feels like doing this. In article <4668@trantor.harris-atd.com> sonny@trantor.harris-atd.com (Bob Davis) writes: > I have a Seagate ST-138R 32M RLL drive that developed this >problem after one year of use (after warranty). And for the past >year I have had to "kick-start" the *@#?! thing... Yaas. It seems to me that the Seagate folks put out some pretty raunchy stuff. As for RLL drives in general - these seem to be the most unstable type drives around (at least for the 32M variety or lower). I think I have heard that the RLL format works better in larger varieties. But - I don't know. And if it were me buying a large disk I would probably go for an ESDI type. But the kind of trouble I've had with the RLLs is the frequent need to re-format after the disk gets fried somehow. I know DOS has something to do with this (directory structures getting trashed), but it seems to happen more frequently on our RLL drives. I never had the stopped up motor problem. It's hard to understand that a company with such a large share of the market like Seagate can get away with making such junk. Of course, I guess some of their stuff is ok, tho. -- ---{john hayes} Old Dominion University; Norfolk, Virginia USA internet: aiko@cs.odu.edu Home: (804) 622-8348 Work: (804) 460-2241 ext 134
steinbac@hpl-opus.HP.COM (Gunter Steinbach) (10/27/90)
I took off the front cover behind which the drive sits so I can easily whack it with a screwdriver handle or other moderately heavy, moderately hard object. I don't know the make of my drive, but it sure sucks! Guenter Steinbach gunter_steinbach@hplabs.hp.com
sigma@pawl.rpi.edu (Kevin J Martin) (10/27/90)
aiko@tulip.cs.odu.edu (John K Hayes) writes: >As for RLL drives in general - these seem to be the most unstable type drives >around (at least for the 32M variety or lower). I think I have heard that the >RLL format works better in larger varieties. But - I don't know. And if it >were me buying a large disk I would probably go for an ESDI type. I've gone through three Seagate RLL drives, and the only one that's given me any serious trouble was the ST4144R (their largest RLL, I believe, at 122.7 Mb). It started out fine. Within two weeks, the seeks were basso profundo. Within four weeks, it would actually do a random seek on its own sometimes! The very next day after that, it started doing full seeks (badump badump badump) and then died completely. It makes the same full seek noise when turned on, but doesn't respond to the computer at all. Yes, I know that sounds like a controller problem, but the controller can run two other Seagate RLL drives with no problems. The hard drive has been returned. Why didn't I go with an ESDI? I wanted to be able to keep my old RLL drives around, using the 65Mb with the 122Mb, and keeping the age-weary 32Mb model around for emergencies such as this. >It's hard to understand that a company with such a large share of the market >like Seagate can get away with making such junk. >Of course, I guess some of their stuff is ok, tho. I don't know why I continue to like Seagate - several models are almost completely junk. I guess I just haven't had any experience with other brands. Toshiba is highly recommended... right? -- Kevin Martin sigma@rpi.edu
berger@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu (10/28/90)
Check your mounting screws and brackets. If these drives are slightly warped, they can exhibit this symptom of unreliable startup. If you are using four screws in the side holes to mount the drive, it is likely that you have this problem. Mike Berger Univ. of Il. Dept. of Statistics berger@atropa.stat.uiuc.edu
jmh@coyote.uucp (John Hughes) (10/28/90)
In article <1447@pedsga.UUCP> mikes@pedsga.UUCP (Mike Shulman <shulman>,SPCSYS,7586) writes: > > Well, like the subject line says, I seem to have a masacistic HD. It's >a Seagate ST125 (20 Meg, 3.5 format), and every once in a while when I >turn on my computer it refuses to spin up. The solution seems to be to >take it out and bang it hard a few times. Then re-install it, and it >works like a champ...until the next time it feels like doing this. >Now, I've heard that this is a known problem with some older HDs of some >brands, so I was wondering - is there also a known solution? (Aside from >buying a new HD, wiseguys!) > Thanks for your replys! > > > - Mike I don't know about the ST125, but on some of the older drive types that kind of problem could be caused by (1) the brake shoe not releasing all the way (eg. the solenoid core rod had some dust/gunk on it), (2) the rotary contactor (usually in the middle of the PCB) wasn't sitting well on the little carbon button which is attached to the axis of the platter rotor assembly, or (3) the motor harness connector needed a dose of something like Cramolin (sometimes no tach signal = no work). By the way, banging on a hard drive is a pretty sure way to leave lots and lots of nice gouges in the platters, and lots of oxide chips running around loose in the platter housing. Upshot: Don't bang it, fix it. -- ============================================================================== John M. Hughes | jmh@coyote.UUCP | Programmer at large, P.O. Box 43305 | john.hughes@emdisle.fidonet.org | or large programmer. Tucson, AZ 85719 | noao!coyote!jmh | Take your choice,
zenith-steven@cs.yale.edu (Steven Ericsson Zenith) (10/28/90)
In article <1447@pedsga.UUCP> mikes@pedsga.UUCP (Mike Shulman <shulman>,SPCSYS,7586) writes: > [...] every once in a while when I >turn on my computer it refuses to spin up. The solution seems to be to >take it out and bang it hard a few times. Then re-install it, and it >works like a champ...until the next time it feels like doing this. I'd be surprised if this problem was caused by your hard disk - However, I wouldn't be surprised if you have caused serious - i.e. irreparable - damage to your drive by banging it hard. The problem is probably a poorly seated controller card or drive connection. The reason the problem cures itself when you take the drive out is that at the same time you reseat the offending connection. Steven -- Steven Ericsson Zenith * email: zenith@cs.yale.edu Fax: (203) 466 2768 | voice: (203) 466 2587 "All see beauty as beauty only because they see ugliness" LaoTzu Yale University Dept of Computer Science 51 Prospect St New Haven CT 06520 USA
trd10523@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Die Hard Cub Fan) (10/29/90)
In article <1990Oct26.201641.25090@cs.odu.edu> aiko@cs.odu.edu (John K Hayes) writes: >>In article <1447@pedsga.UUCP> mikes@pedsga.UUCP (Mike Shulman <shulman>,SPCSYS,7586) writes: >>> >>> Well, like the subject line says, I seem to have a masacistic HD. It's >>>a Seagate ST125 (20 Meg, 3.5 format), and every once in a while when I >>>turn on my computer it refuses to spin up. The solution seems to be to >>>take it out and bang it hard a few times. Then re-install it, and it >>>works like a champ...until the next time it feels like doing this. > > >In article <4668@trantor.harris-atd.com> sonny@trantor.harris-atd.com (Bob Davis) writes: >> I have a Seagate ST-138R 32M RLL drive that developed this >>problem after one year of use (after warranty). And for the past >>year I have had to "kick-start" the *@#?! thing... > > >Yaas. It seems to me that the Seagate folks put out some pretty raunchy stuff. >As for RLL drives in general - these seem to be the most unstable type drives >around (at least for the 32M variety or lower). I think I have heard that the >RLL format works better in larger varieties. But - I don't know. And if it >were me buying a large disk I would probably go for an ESDI type. >But the kind of trouble I've had with the RLLs is the frequent need to >re-format after the disk gets fried somehow. I know DOS has something to > >It's hard to understand that a company with such a large share of the market >like Seagate can get away with making such junk. >Of course, I guess some of their stuff is ok, tho. I have to speak up in defense of Seagate here. I had an ST138R that did the EXACT same thing - crapped out after 18 months of faithful service. After yelling at a couple of hard drive dealers, I found out that the problem was the lubricant used on the motor shaft. It is not silicone based, so it seizes up with time. (So, banging it un-seizes it enough for the motor to drive it.) Well, after hearing this, I proceeded to send Seagate a NASTY letter on their tech support BBS system (1-408-438-8771, 1200 bps). They explained that this happened a lot to the first generation of these drives. He gave me an RMA numberand I sent it in, despite the lack of warranty. They replaced it for a $40 fee and 30 days [they're very strict on the 30 days] of waiting. I now have a "second generation" ST138R, with which they gave me a 90 day warranty. I have had no problems since then. (I don't know about a year from now :-) ) Bottom line: Seagate has always meant quality to me for years. It looks to me that they're willing to admit when they make a mistake. I'm not about to give up on them. -- /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// / Todd Davis INTERNET: trd10523@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu / / Computer Engineering Student COORDINATES: 40 06' 47" N / 88 13' 35 W / / University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign / ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
sophist@brainiac.raidernet.com (Phillip McReynolds) (10/31/90)
trd10523@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Die Hard Cub Fan) writes: [Lots of stuff deleted.] > ...I found out that the problem was the > lubricant used on the motor shaft. It is not silicone based, so it seizes up > with time. (So, banging it un-seizes it enough for the motor to drive it.) > > Well, after hearing this, I proceeded to send Seagate a NASTY letter on their > tech support BBS system (1-408-438-8771, 1200 bps). They explained that this > happened a lot to the first generation of these drives. He gave me an RMA num [more stuff delted] Is there some way of determining which generation of these drives one has (by serial numbers or something)? I own an ST-238R which also has the letters 'PR' right after the model number. I would be really interested in finding out whether my drive is going to seize up after 18 months of service (I've only had it since May). BTW, 18 months *is* conveniently after the expiration of the Warranty. = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Phillip A. McReynolds, sophist@brainiac.raidernet.com Licensed Philosopher org: Phillip's Philosophy Shop, Inc. (MPA Certified) "Quality Philosophy Products Since 1990" = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
pnelson@hobbes.uucp (Phil Nelson) (11/02/90)
I have both a 125 and 238R (though I use the 238R with MFM controller) I have had 'stiction' probs with both of these. Stiction is when the heads get glued to the platter by too much lubricant. Short of replacing the drive, I know of two easy ways of dealing with this situation: 1. Don't shut the drive down (no, I am not kidding, just leave the PC on). 2. If you must shut the PC down, don't park the heads, and don't leave it off for very long. The subject of stiction and Seagate drives has been discussed to death in the old comp.sys.ibm.pc, maybe you can find it in an archive somewhere. -- Phil Nelson . ames!pyramid!oliveb!tymix!hobbes!pnelson . Voice:408-922-7508 Clean House... and Senate!
tomf@cms2.UUCP (Tom Fortner) (11/03/90)
In article <PL6%}?*@rpi.edu# sigma@pawl.rpi.edu (Kevin J Martin) writes: #aiko@tulip.cs.odu.edu (John K Hayes) writes: #>As for RLL drives in general - these seem to be the most unstable type drives #>around (at least for the 32M variety or lower). I think I have heard that the #>RLL format works better in larger varieties. But - I don't know. And if it #>were me buying a large disk I would probably go for an ESDI type. # #I've gone through three Seagate RLL drives, and the only one that's given #me any serious trouble was the ST4144R (their largest RLL, I believe, at #122.7 Mb). It started out fine. Within two weeks, the seeks were basso #profundo. Within four weeks, it would actually do a random seek on its own #sometimes! The very next day after that, it started doing full seeks #(badump badump badump) and then died completely. It makes the same full #seek noise when turned on, but doesn't respond to the computer at all. #Yes, I know that sounds like a controller problem, but the controller can #run two other Seagate RLL drives with no problems. The hard drive has been #returned. # #Why didn't I go with an ESDI? I wanted to be able to keep my old RLL #drives around, using the 65Mb with the 122Mb, and keeping the age-weary #32Mb model around for emergencies such as this. # #>It's hard to understand that a company with such a large share of the market #>like Seagate can get away with making such junk. #>Of course, I guess some of their stuff is ok, tho. # #I don't know why I continue to like Seagate - several models are almost #completely junk. I guess I just haven't had any experience with other #brands. Toshiba is highly recommended... right? # No, we had a Toshiba MK series (90 MB) that failed after only 8 months in operation. It began doing full seeks on its own and then stopped doing anything. Then rebooting, I found Dos telling me that there was no drive C:. All data was lost. So, we called the area Toshiba repair center to be told that Toshiba has closed all their US repair centers, and that the warrenty was not honored. Needless to say, I bought a Micropolis 1335 to replace it, since a clean room here in town can service it. I have a Seagate drive in my machine at home(ST-277R). It replaced a Seagate drive that I outgrew in 3 years time (ST-238R). I have installed Seagate ST-225s and ST-238s in many machines. I have yet to have one fail in 3 years time. But the 3.5" drives are mostly thin-film drives (not just Seagate's, every manufacturer's) and thin-film is not yet reliable enough for me to try one. The stiction problem is usually related to thin-film lubricant binding the head to the platter, or the magnetic field binding the head to the platter. Whatever the cause, I'm sticking with the old media until thin-film problems are solved. Thin-film is not just a Seagate technology, and the rest of the industry has the same problem as Seagate. Tom -- Tom Fortner ** The greatest gift a man can offer Christian Medical & Dental Society ** his Maker is a repentant committed UUCP: cms2!tomf ** life and a disciplined, diligent INTERNET: tomf@cms2.lonestar.org ** mind.
alien@hpdmd48.boi.hp.com (Tom von Alten) (11/05/90)
> But the 3.5" drives are mostly thin-film drives (not just Seagate's, > every manufacturer's) and thin-film is not yet reliable enough for me to > try one. The stiction problem is usually related to thin-film lubricant > binding the head to the platter, or the magnetic field binding the head > to the platter. Whatever the cause, I'm sticking with the old media > until thin-film problems are solved. As someone involved in the manufacture and the frequent use of various disk drives, I would not base my product selection on the type of media alone. There are products that use thin film media or thin film heads or both that have proven themselves very reliable. There are products that use ferrous oxide ("brown") media that have proven much less reliable. Anecdotal evidence is as likely to be misleading as it is to be useful. _____________ Tom von Alten email: alien@hpdmd48.boi.hp.com Hewlett-Packard Disk Mechanisms Division_______________ "Your mileage may vary. Use only as directed. No warranties expressed or implied. This is a statement of personal opinion. Etc."