[comp.sys.ibm.pc.misc] Prodigy - Conversations with Fred

reisert@ricks.enet.dec.com (Jim Reisert) (11/22/90)

VNS TECHNOLOGY WATCH:                           [Mike Taylor, VNS Correspondent]
=====================                           [Nashua, NH, USA               ]

                         Conversations with Fred
                   Middlesex News, Framingham, 11/6/90.
                  via BITNET Computer Underground Digest

    The story is bizarre but true, swears Herb Rothman. Seems Prodigy,
    the network run as a joint venture by Sears and IBM, wouldn't let
    somebody post a message in a coin-collecting forum that he was
    looking for a particular Roosevelt dime for his collection. Upset,
    the man called "member services." The representative told him the
    message violated a Prodigy rule against mentioning another user in a
    public message. "What user?" the man asked. "Roosevelt Dime," the
    rep replied. "That's not a person!" the man said. "Yes he is, he's a
    halfback for the Chicago Bears," the rep shot back.

    Rothman is one of those alleged compu-terrorists Prodigy claims is
    harassing other users and companies that advertise on the service by
    sending out thousands upon thousands of increasingly hostile
    messages in protest of a Prodigy plan to begin charging users who
    send more than 30 e-mail messages a month. Rothman and the others
    say they sent very polite messages to people (Penny Hay of Los
    Angeles says her messages were even approved by the Prodigy legal
    department) telling them about the new fees and urging them to
    protest.

    What's really happening is that Prodigy is proving its complete
    arrogance and total lack of understanding of the dynamics of on-line
    communication. They just don't get it. People are NOT going to spend
    nearly $130 a year just to see the weather in Oregon or order trips
    to Hawaii.

    Even the computerphobes Prodigy wants to attract quickly learn the
    real value of the service is in finding new friends and holding
    intelligent "discussions" with others across the country.

    But Prodigy blithely goes on censoring everything meant for public
    consumption, unlike other nationwide services (or even
    bulletin-board systems run out of some teenager's bedroom).
    Rothman's story is not the only one about capricious or just plain
    stupid censoring. Dog fanciers can't use the word "bitch" when
    talking about their pets, yet the service recently ran an advice
    column all about oral sex. 

    So when the supposed technology illiterates Prodigy thinks make up
    its user base managed to get around this through the creation of
    private mail "lists" (and, in fact, many did so at the urging of
    Prodigy itself!), Prodigy started complaining of "e-mail hogs,"
    quietly announced plans to levy charges for more than a minute
    number of e-mail messages each month and finally, simply canceled
    the accounts of those who protested the loudest!

    And now we are watching history in the making, with the nation's
    first nationwide protest movement organized almost entirely by
    electronic mail (now don't tell Prodigy this, but all those people
    they kicked off quickly got back onto the system -- Prodogy allows
    up to six users per household account, and friends simply loaned
    their empty slots to the protest leaders).

    It's truly amazing how little faith Prodigy has in the ability of
    users to behave themselves. Other systems have "sysops" to keep
    things in line, but rarely do they have to pull messages. Plus,
    Prodigy is just being plain dumb. Rothman now has a mailing list of
    about 1,500. That means every time he sends out one of his
    newsletters on collectibles, he sends 1,500 e-mail messages, which,
    yes, costs more for Prodigy to send over long-distance lines and
    store in its central computers. But if they realized their users are
    generally mature, rather than treating them as 4-year-olds, Rothman
    could post just one message in a public area, that everybody could
    see.

    Is this any way to run an on-line system? Does Prodigy really want
    to drive away the people most inclined to use the service -- and see
    all those ads that pop up at the bottom of the screen? Prodigy may
    soon have to do some accounting to the folks at IBM and Sears, who
    by most accounts have already poured at least $750 million into
    "this thing."

    {Contributed by Wes Plouff}

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

"The opinions expressed here in no way represent the views of Digital
 Equipment Corporation."

James J. Reisert                Internet: reisert@ricks.enet.dec.com
Digital Equipment Corp.         UUCP:     ...decwrl!ricks.enet!reisert
77 Reed Road
Hudson, MA  01749-2895

F0O@psuvm.psu.edu (11/24/90)

In article <3493@ryn.esg.dec.com>, reisert@ricks.enet.dec.com (Jim Reisert)
says:

>    The story is bizarre but true, swears Herb Rothman. Seems Prodigy,
>    the network run as a joint venture by Sears and IBM, wouldn't let
>    somebody post a message in a coin-collecting forum that he was
>    looking for a particular Roosevelt dime for his collection. Upset,
>    the man called "member services." The representative told him the
>    message violated a Prodigy rule against mentioning another user in a
>    public message. "What user?" the man asked. "Roosevelt Dime," the
>    rep replied. "That's not a person!" the man said. "Yes he is, he's a
>    halfback for the Chicago Bears," the rep shot back.

     This is certainly a bit paranoid of Prodigy.  I can understand
    since Prodigy is more of a family system, that they would want to
    be careful, but on the other hand CompuServe also has kids on it.
    I do hope Prodigy will relax their censorship a bit.

>    Rothman is one of those alleged compu-terrorists Prodigy claims is
>    harassing other users and companies that advertise on the service by
>    sending out thousands upon thousands of increasingly hostile
>    messages in protest of a Prodigy plan to begin charging users who
>    send more than 30 e-mail messages a month. Rothman and the others
>    say they sent very polite messages to people (Penny Hay of Los
>    Angeles says her messages were even approved by the Prodigy legal
>    department) telling them about the new fees and urging them to
>    protest.

     Why would he want to protest?  I've heard they want to charge $0.10
    for every email message over 30 a month.  What's wrong with this?
    Think about it, you're only paying ten something *a month* to use
    their service; Compuserve is $12 an hour!  Another way of looking
    at it is the $12/hr breaks down to $0.10 every 30 seconds.  So,
    even if you left Prodigy, where could you go to get a better deal?
    I think all these people are making a big fuss over nothing.

>    What's really happening is that Prodigy is proving its complete
>    arrogance and total lack of understanding of the dynamics of on-line
>    communication. They just don't get it. People are NOT going to spend
>    nearly $130 a year just to see the weather in Oregon or order trips
>    to Hawaii.

     That's right, at least I hope they don't!  Wether it's worth it
     or not depends on how much you use the system.  If you're on more
     than 2 hours a month, then it's cheaper than CompuServe.
     Of course CompuServe has more services, but it all comes down to
     what YOU really need.

     [...stuff deleted...]

>    Is this any way to run an on-line system? Does Prodigy really want
>    to drive away the people most inclined to use the service -- and see
>    all those ads that pop up at the bottom of the screen? Prodigy may
>    soon have to do some accounting to the folks at IBM and Sears, who
>    by most accounts have already poured at least $750 million into
>    "this thing."

>    {Contributed by Wes Plouff}

     The ads are a pain, but at $10 *a month* they have to make up
    the difference somehow.
     I think the bottom line is, if you don't like the system, then
    go to some other system.

                                                        [Tim]

----------
"Operator, can you give me the number for 911?"  - Homer Simpson

roy%cybrspc@cs.umn.edu (Roy M. Silvernail) (11/25/90)

F0O@psuvm.psu.edu writes: [about Prodigy]

>      Why would he want to protest?  I've heard they want to charge $0.10
>     for every email message over 30 a month.  What's wrong with this?

The information I have seen is that Prodigy will be charging
$0.25/message over the 30 allowed per month. What's wrong? Consider that
many Prodigy users, unable to carry on discussions of their choice in
public forums, have formed mailing lists (some at the explicit behest of
Prodigy itself). These mailing lists can number in the hundreds of
recipients, and their structure is such that when each participant sends
a message to the list, the service expands it to _individual_messages_to_
each_list_member_! That adds up to a _lot_ of e-mail.

>     Think about it, you're only paying ten something *a month* to use
>     their service; Compuserve is $12 an hour!  Another way of looking
>     at it is the $12/hr breaks down to $0.10 every 30 seconds.  So,
>     even if you left Prodigy, where could you go to get a better deal?
>     I think all these people are making a big fuss over nothing.

Personally, I have seen the Prodigy demo, played about briefly with the
service, and found it lacking. I also used to subscribe to Compu$erve,
until the first bill came. (Alaska access is even higher than the
Contiguous U.S.) From what I was able to see, Prodigy offers very little
that would interest someone who's used to Usenet. A better deal?
Frankly, I don't see much of a deal at all with Prodigy.

To me, Prodigy looks like the Network TV of online services.

>      The ads are a pain, but at $10 *a month* they have to make up
>     the difference somehow.

So... scoot up the rates they charge the advertisers a little, and make
the system available without charge. If you're going to act like Network
TV, go the whole way.

>      I think the bottom line is, if you don't like the system, then
>     go to some other system.

I believe people will do just that. Certainly, there will be a new
supply of Prodigy users (many of whom got the startup kit with their new
PS/1) coming online, but as those folks with the desire become more
network-literate, they'll move on to more productive services.

As for me, I _don't_ "gotta get this thing."
--
Roy M. Silvernail |+|  roy%cybrspc@cs.umn.edu  |+| #define opinions ALL_MINE;
main(){float x=1;x=x/50;printf("It's only $%.2f, but it's my $%.2f!\n",x,x);}
"This is cyberspace." -- Peter da Silva  :--:  "...and I like it here!" -- me

sichermn@beach.csulb.edu (Jeff Sicherman) (11/25/90)

Prodigy bashers may be interested in knowing that Genie has a new
Star*Services arrangement which supplies basic services like
Prodigy (text-only though, non-graphical) for a flat monthly fee
of $4.95. It doen not include access to the computer forums (the
meter ticks at normal hourly rates if you enter them) or download.

I have a computer readable 'flyer' announcing it but hesitate to 
post here due to length. Unless the demand gets out of hand, send
me mail and I will return a copy to anyone.

Jeff Sicherman

hshaw@Neon.Stanford.EDU (Hubert Shaw) (11/26/90)

F0O@psuvm.psu.edu writes:

>In article <3493@ryn.esg.dec.com>, reisert@ricks.enet.dec.com (Jim Reisert)
>says:


>>    Rothman is one of those alleged compu-terrorists Prodigy claims is
>>    harassing other users and companies that advertise on the service by
>>    sending out thousands upon thousands of increasingly hostile
>>    messages in protest of a Prodigy plan to begin charging users who
>>    send more than 30 e-mail messages a month. Rothman and the others
>>    say they sent very polite messages to people (Penny Hay of Los
>>    Angeles says her messages were even approved by the Prodigy legal
>>    department) telling them about the new fees and urging them to
>>    protest.

>     Why would he want to protest?  I've heard they want to charge $0.10
>    for every email message over 30 a month.  What's wrong with this?
>    Think about it, you're only paying ten something *a month* to use
>    their service; Compuserve is $12 an hour!  Another way of looking
>    at it is the $12/hr breaks down to $0.10 every 30 seconds.  So,
>    even if you left Prodigy, where could you go to get a better deal?
>    I think all these people are making a big fuss over nothing.


There is an error here.  The charge is $.25 per email after the 30 free
per month.

Why protest?  Another thing not mentioned is that email is limited to 4
Prodigy pages, which is equivalent to about ONE typed page.  To write
a reasonably sized letter would require that it be broken up into >1
email letters.  This would make the price of one email letter >=$.50
instead of $.25.  One can easily see how this can become exhorbitant.


Hubert Shaw
Stanford University
inet: hshaw@neon.stanford.edu

elund@pro-graphics.cts.com (Eric W. Lund) (11/26/90)

In-Reply-To: message from F0O@psuvm.psu.edu

I've used Prodigy for a year, and the only thing it really had going for it
was the unlimited E-MAIL.  The protests from Rothman and other irate users are
not simply about the E-MAIl, but about censorship.  I have had many letters
"rejected" for it's content, with little explanation as to why.  And then
someone else later gets a letter posted making the same point I was trying to
make.  Prodigy officials are incapable of handling its users -- they treat us
like children.  Any discussion about this treatment is forbidden.  So, the
users must resort to discussing things in private.  Please note that these
letters are four "pages" in length.  A page, to Prodigy, is 40 characters wide
and about ten lines long.  Not much you can pack in a page.  And at $.25 a
shot, this kills freedom of expression on Prodigy.  We can't post publically
due to censorship, and we can't post privately due to the excessive charges.  
The real reason for the charge is to pay for the new Tymnet access lines they
are getting, and since %90 of the mail is made by %10 of the users, they
decided to punish the %10.  I've talked with many "non-mail active" users, and
it turns out they simply aren't active at all.  Prodigy wants to make money
off of people who are too lazy to write "cancel" on the bill.  We are
protesting because the email charge is just another form of censorship that
the Prodigy diplomats enjoy imposing.  I don't know what they're afraid of,
but it should be the protesters.  We have every right to threaten their
business in order to get what we want.  We are disatisfied customers.  Sure,
we could just leave, but isn't it better first to try to become a satisfied
customer?  I have informed Prodigy of my planned cancellation if they do not
stop the proposed implementation of email charges.  They are lucky, I'm not
one of the activists who plan to stay on Prodigy, call the Tymnet lines, and
make Prodigy lose money in a matter of hours.  (At $2.00/hour, in six hours
Prodigy would be paying more to keep the user than the user pays!)
 
Anyhow ... I haven't had a babble in a while.  I can rest now.
                      Eric W. Lund #==== ARPA/DDN: pro-graphics!elund@nosc.mil
          Friend, Countryman, Ears |  __  Internet: elund@pro-graphics.cts.com
___________________________________| <  \    UUCP: ...crash!pro-graphics!elund
PRO-GRAPHICS:   "It's better than  |  >    >  <  | ProLine: elund@pro-graphics
        a sharp stick in the eye." ! <__/.<_/\_>.|__________. Prodigy: xcbr22b

henry@garp.mit.edu (Henry Mensch) (11/26/90)

hshaw@Neon.Stanford.EDU (Hubert Shaw) wrote: 
->Why protest?  Another thing not mentioned is that email is limited to 4
->Prodigy pages, which is equivalent to about ONE typed page.  

not only that, but *P* continues to promote the service to
non-subscribers as a flat-fee service (obviously deceptive).  *P* just
recently told their subscribers about the upcoming change in e-mail
arrangements (they were very good at not answering questions from
users when asked about the new charge).

# Henry Mensch    /   <henry@garp.mit.edu>   /   E40-379 MIT,  Cambridge, MA
# <hmensch@uk.ac.nsfnet-relay> / <henry@tts.lth.se> / <mensch@munnari.oz.au>
#     via X.400: S=mensch; OU=informatik; P=tu-muenchen; A=dbp; C=de