ntaib@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Nur Iskandar Taib) (02/15/91)
I am about to start construction on a clone, and would like some advice about where to begin. First of all, there are something like 50 ads in Computer Shopper for compo- nents, but precious little advice about what to buy. Has anyone else built a clone? Any advice to give me? What companies should I avoid? JDR has a good reputation, but their prices are a little high. The cheaper companies are relatively unknown. How far can you trust a company called "Bulldog"? A couple friends have done this before and suggest MicroLab in Minnesota and CompuTrend in California. Are these good places? What motherboards are best and what should be avoided? Which bioses are best? What about those $40 keyboards (even those with the "Alps switches")? What about video cards and moni- tors? Are major brands (Orchid, Paradise) better than something like "Great Tek VGA"? How would one find drivers for these generic boards? Are Samsung monitors any good? Then there are the hard drives. What to buy and what to avoid? Are Kaloks, for instance, any good? So if you've built a clone, or know of someone who has, please share your experiences. (If you've had a bad experience, here is your chance to vent your spleen!) Mail is welcome, and I'll post a summary after a while. And thanks in advance. By the way, the system I have in mind is a 25 MHz 386 on which I intend to run Windows 3, so I suppose Bios and video compati- bility are major considerations. -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Iskandar Taib | The only thing worse than Peach ala Internet: NTAIB@AQUA.UCS.INDIANA.EDU | Frog is Frog ala Peach Bitnet: NTAIB@IUBACS ! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
jdb@reef.cis.ufl.edu (Brian K. W. Hook) (02/15/91)
In article <1991Feb15.000423.26009@bronze.ucs.indiana.edu> ntaib@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Nur Iskandar Taib) writes: >What motherboards are best and what should be avoided? Well, going with the name brands can't seem to really hurt. Don't skimp on parts since you will end up paying for it down the road. I would recommend either AMI, MYLEX, or MICRONICS. >Which bioses are best? Well, most of the big name motherboards carry big name bioses....Phoenix, Award, and AMi are the top 3. They all work about equally well, although Phoenix and AMI have a bit better rep in the 386 marketplace. >What about those $40 keyboards? NEVER buy a cheapo keyboard! The best inexpesnives keyboard that I can recommend is the Fujitsu. I don't like mtek, Chicony, and abhor keytronics. The keyboard I have is the Northgate and I swear by it. And it has a 5 year warranty, is rock solid and works beautifully. This is the Omnikey 102. >What about video cards and monitors? Well, I would recommend a 16-bit SVGA with either 512K or 1MB of VRAM, and that supports non interlaced 1024x768x256. The best are usually the the ones based on the ET4000 or Trident 8900 chip set. The LOGIX card I have heard real good things about. The name brands are expensive and you don't usually get your money's worth, although I hear good things about them too. LOGIx has the widest selection of drivers out there. For monitor, I just fell in love with a Samsung Syncmaster 3 (?) that is .28mm dp, 1024x768 interlaced, and is beautiful. Crisp, sharp, and it has VERY vibrant colors. >Then there are the hard drives. What to buy and what to avoid? >Are Kaloks, for instance, any good? I'd stick with name brand hard drives....I haev a preference for Seagate and especially Conner drives. I prefer the IDE interface sinc eit is fast, reliable, and inexpensive. >By the way, the system I have in mind is a 25 MHz 386 on which >I intend to run Windows 3, so I suppose Bios and video compati- >bility are major considerations. Recommendatin: 386-33 Micronics MB w/ 8MB and 32k cache (1800 total mail order) Logix 1MB ET4000 based board (189 dollars mail order from Logix) Samsung Syncmaster .28 monitor (~430 dollars) Northgate or Fujitsu keyboard (50-120 dollars) Seagate ST1144 (?) 20ms 125MB IDE (around 500 mail order) TEAC floppy (65 mail order) Logitech Mouseman or MS Mouse (~80 dollars) You total it....I don't have a calculator handy. Brian
ross@yoko.stat.orst.edu (David Ross) (02/15/91)
In article <26936@uflorida.cis.ufl.EDU> jdb@reef.cis.ufl.edu (Brian K. W. Hook) writes: >Recommendatin: > >Northgate or Fujitsu keyboard (50-120 dollars) ^^^^^ Warning: there are 2 Fuji keyboards generally for sale. The 4700 is quite nice, the 4800 is just passable. If you're buying mail order, make sure the person taking the order hears you correctly.
ianhogg@cs.umn.edu (Ian J. Hogg) (02/16/91)
In article <26936@uflorida.cis.ufl.EDU> jdb@reef.cis.ufl.edu (Brian K. W. Hook) writes: > [ deleted things about component recommendations, ] >Recommendatin: > >386-33 Micronics MB w/ 8MB and 32k cache (1800 total mail order) >Logix 1MB ET4000 based board (189 dollars mail order from Logix) >Samsung Syncmaster .28 monitor (~430 dollars) >Northgate or Fujitsu keyboard (50-120 dollars) >Seagate ST1144 (?) 20ms 125MB IDE (around 500 mail order) >TEAC floppy (65 mail order) >Logitech Mouseman or MS Mouse (~80 dollars) > >You total it....I don't have a calculator handy. I total it and I get about $3035 without the mouse. I'm picking up a new system today that is configured as follows: PC Express 386-33mhz system 2530 Wedge Motherboard w/64k cache 4MB ram 1.2MB and 1.4 MB floppies (TEAC) Panasync 1381c monitor DOS 4.1 installed 100 MB IDE drive Focus 16 bit SVGA with 1MB I put together the following upgrades: Diamond SpeedStar 1MB SVGA 79 Seagate ST1144A disc drive 40 Mini Tower case 39 total price: 2688 If you added a second floppy to your recommedation we'd have about a $400 price difference with the major discrepancy being 4Mb of RAM. Can I get 4 MB ram for less than $400? > >Brian -- =============================================================================== Ian Hogg ianhogg@cs.umn.edu (612) 225-1401
lairdt@mist.CS.ORST.EDU (Tom Laird) (02/16/91)
In article <1991Feb15.184449.21942@cs.umn.edu> ianhogg@cs.umn.edu (Ian J. Hogg) writes: > [Stuff deleted] > > I total it and I get about $3035 without the mouse. I'm picking up a new >system today that is configured as follows: > > PC Express 386-33mhz system 2530 > Wedge Motherboard w/64k cache > 4MB ram > 1.2MB and 1.4 MB floppies (TEAC) > Panasync 1381c monitor > DOS 4.1 installed > 100 MB IDE drive > Focus 16 bit SVGA with 1MB > > I put together the following upgrades: > Diamond SpeedStar 1MB SVGA 79 > Seagate ST1144A disc drive 40 > Mini Tower case 39 > > total price: 2688 > >If you added a second floppy to your recommedation we'd have about a $400 >price difference with the major discrepancy being 4Mb of RAM. Can I get >4 MB ram for less than $400? First of all I'd get a different chassis. The smaller chassis run hotter and are a big pain to upgrade at any point - not enough space. I also would avoid an IDE drive, especially a Seagate. IDE drives are SLOW and turn out about 500-600k per second throughput - a bad idea to hook up such a slow drive to a fast system.
jgay@digi.lonestar.org (john gay) (02/16/91)
From article <26936@uflorida.cis.ufl.EDU>, by jdb@reef.cis.ufl.edu (Brian K. W. Hook): > In article <1991Feb15.000423.26009@bronze.ucs.indiana.edu> ntaib@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Nur Iskandar Taib) writes: > Recommendatin: > > 386-33 Micronics MB w/ 8MB and 32k cache (1800 total mail order) > Logix 1MB ET4000 based board (189 dollars mail order from Logix) > Samsung Syncmaster .28 monitor (~430 dollars) > Northgate or Fujitsu keyboard (50-120 dollars) > Seagate ST1144 (?) 20ms 125MB IDE (around 500 mail order) > TEAC floppy (65 mail order) > Logitech Mouseman or MS Mouse (~80 dollars) > Sounds like a pretty good system to me. You forgot a case to put it in, but the rest sounds good and case price is pretty dependent on style (desktop, mini-tower, tower, super-tower, etc). The only thing that I would add is to get really good prices find someone that takes PC Week. The companies in there have the overall best pricing around. Example: (but not necessarily an endorsement) IDS has these motherboards for sale: AMI 386/25 64k cache, 0k ram - $ 859 AMI 386/25 64k cache, 4M ram - $1059 AMI 386/33 64k cache, 0k ram - $1089 AMI 386/33 64k cache, 4M ram - $1259 Micronics 386/33 0k (doesn't say cache, but probably) $1379 They sell all three mb (AMI, Micronics, and Mylex) recommended previously, plus harddrives and other things. You can also find similar low pricing on memory (~45 1Mx9-80 simms), 80387 (although not too low on those), and other components. If you can get issues from about 3 months back and look through the adds and see who is still advertising (although most are reliable and I have seen them advertising for at least a couple years) you will probably be better off. Most of these places are distributers and some (IME) are liquidators. I think that most will accept credit cards. After finding places to get stuff it would probably be a good idea to post here and ask about past experiences with some places. john gay. always looking for cheap, fast thrills.
ong@d.cs.okstate.edu (ONG ENG TENG) (02/17/91)
From article <1991Feb15.201920.13743@lynx.CS.ORST.EDU>, by lairdt@mist.CS.ORST.EDU (Tom Laird): > First of all I'd get a different chassis. The smaller chassis run hotter > and are a big pain to upgrade at any point - not enough space. > I also would avoid an IDE drive, especially a Seagate. IDE drives are SLOW > and turn out about 500-600k per second throughput - a bad idea to hook up > such a slow drive to a fast system. IDE drive slow? How about Conners IDE? Most people I know seems to go IDE way. Is it just because of cost?
smsmith@hpuxa.ircc.ohio-state.edu (Stephen M. Smith) (02/17/91)
jdb@reef.cis.ufl.edu (Brian K. W. Hook) writes: [good suggestions deleted] > >Recommendation: > >386-33 Micronics MB w/ 8MB and 32k cache (1800 total mail order) I just noticed that Lucky Computers is selling the Micronics 486-25 64k cache motherboard (0k RAM) for $1895. Isn't it crazy how we're always just a few hundred dollars away from our ultimate dream machine? ****************************************************************************** Steve Smith 286 buyer: "I could have bought a 386sx!" smsmith@hpuxa. 386sx buyer: "I could have bought a DX!" ircc.ohio- 386dx buyer: "I could have bought a 486!" state.edu 486 buyer: "what the heck will I do with this thing??!" ******************************************************************************
smsmith@hpuxa.ircc.ohio-state.edu (Stephen M. Smith) (02/17/91)
jgay@digi.lonestar.org (john gay) writes: >Most of these places are distributers and some (IME) are ^^^ >liquidators. I think that most will accept credit cards. After finding >places to get stuff it would probably be a good idea to post here and >ask about past experiences with some places. OK...I'm about to buy a $599 hard drive from IME which usually sells for over $800. Should I do it? Stephen M. Smith \ + / <smsmith@hpuxa. \+++++/ " #*&<-[89s]*(k#$@-_=//a2$]'+=.(2_&*%>,,@ ircc.ohio-state. \ + / {7%*@,..":27g)-=,#*:.#,/6&1*.4-,l@#9:-) " edu> \ + / BTW, WYSInaWYG \ + / --witty.saying.ARC
jdb@reef.cis.ufl.edu (Brian K. W. Hook) (02/18/91)
In article <1991Feb15.201920.13743@lynx.CS.ORST.EDU> lairdt@mist.CS.ORST.EDU (Tom Laird) writes: >I also would avoid an IDE drive, especially a Seagate. IDE drives are SLOW >and turn out about 500-600k per second throughput - a bad idea to hook up >such a slow drive to a fast system. I don't know where you get those statistics, but I would like to point out that about 90% of the mail order computer companies use IDE drives because they are fast, low cost, and reliable. Northgate, Gateway, Zeos, Dell, EVERYONE use IDE drives. I get transfer rates around 800-1000k per second, and they very inexpensive. The Seagate and Conner drives are the best for the price. I personally have an aversion to Maxtor and Miniscribe. Also, these companies have IDE drives on their 33mhz and 486 systems. Your average IDE drive will be arund 20ms with 32K cache, and there are some down to 15ms, 128K cache, and up to 338MB in size. Brian
ntaib@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Nur Iskandar Taib) (02/18/91)
*>>I also would avoid an IDE drive, especially a Seagate. IDE drives are SLOW *>>and turn out about 500-600k per second throughput - a bad idea to hook up *>>such a slow drive to a fast system. *>I don't know where you get those statistics, but I would like to point out *>that about 90% of the mail order computer companies use IDE drives because *>they are fast, low cost, and reliable. Northgate, Gateway, Zeos, Dell, *>EVERYONE use IDE drives. I get transfer rates around 800-1000k per second, *>and they very inexpensive. Which brings up the point: what exactly is an IDE drive? I'm familiar with ST506, SCSI, ESDI, MFM and RLL, but IDE is a new term for me. -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Iskandar Taib | The only thing worse than Peach ala Internet: NTAIB@AQUA.UCS.INDIANA.EDU | Frog is Frog ala Peach Bitnet: NTAIB@IUBACS ! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
jdb@reef.cis.ufl.edu (Brian K. W. Hook) (02/18/91)
In article <1991Feb17.180508.3223@bronze.ucs.indiana.edu> ntaib@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Nur Iskandar Taib) writes: |>*>>I also would avoid an IDE drive, especially a Seagate. IDE drives are SLOW |>*>>and turn out about 500-600k per second throughput - a bad idea to hook up |>*>>such a slow drive to a fast system. |> |>*>I don't know where you get those statistics, but I would like to point out |>*>that about 90% of the mail order computer companies use IDE drives because |>*>they are fast, low cost, and reliable. Northgate, Gateway, Zeos, Dell, |>*>EVERYONE use IDE drives. I get transfer rates around 800-1000k per second, |>*>and they very inexpensive. |> |>Which brings up the point: what exactly is an IDE |>drive? I'm familiar with ST506, SCSI, ESDI, MFM |>and RLL, but IDE is a new term for me. IDE can mean many different things to different people. I have heard it mean Integrated Drive Electronics, Intelligent Drive Electronics, Integral Drive Electronis, etc. etc. The first is the most common, but in general the IDE interface is a relatively new and popular drive standard. It has superseded both the RLL and MFM drive controllers as the controller of choice for most computer companies. The drives are distinguished in that the controller is PART of the drive, much like a SCSI drive, and it requires only an adapter to get the data to the motherboard. Some newer motherboards ( Micronics ASICs for example) have the IDE drive ports built in. The drives often have 34 or 37 sectors per track, vs. 17 or 26 for MFM and RLL, and are usually less expensive that most of the other drives out there (about 150-300 dollars lest than comparable ESDI). Max throughput is usually around 800-1000k per second, and most have between a 16-256K track buffering read ahead cache, and speeds hover around 17-20ms range (although there are a couple of 28ms drives and 14 ms drives out there). To sum: Higher capacity, lower cost, MUCH lower power consumption, relatively high speed (vs. RLL and MFM), and high efficiency. Brian
smsmith@hpuxa.ircc.ohio-state.edu (Stephen M. Smith) (02/19/91)
jdb@reef.cis.ufl.edu (Brian K. W. Hook) writes: [deletions] > >To sum: [IDE drives have...] >Higher capacity, lower cost, MUCH lower power consumption, relatively high >speed (vs. RLL and MFM), and high efficiency. > >Brian Could someone help me to decide between IDE and ESDI? OK, now I'm confused! I'll be buying a 486-25 with 4-8 MEGs of RAM in the next week (from Gateway). The Maxtor 200 MEG 15ms IDE drive is standard in the system, but I was planning on getting a Micropolis ESDI drive instead. I know about the physical makeup of each drive and basically how each works, and I'm convinced that the IDE is about as reliable as an ESDI drive (in the 150-200 MEG range, anyway), but here are some questions: 1) Will my IDE drive work if/when I change to OS/2? 2) I want to have as much control over my system as possible. I know that I can easily low-level format an ESDI drive, my ESDI controller will read the factory-set bad sectors from the drive or allow me to enter them manually from the keyboard. I can easily change the interleave on an ESDI drive. ESDI controllers allow for power sequencing in case I get another ESDI drive... In other words, it seems to me that an ESDI drive is very versatile (it is compatible with DOS, Unix, OS/2, etc.) and it will allow me to configure/change it however I want. Will I be able to do these things with an IDE drive? Thanks for any help! Stephen M. Smith \ + / <smsmith@hpuxa. \+++++/ " #*&<-[89s]*(k#$@-_=//a2$]'+=.(2_&*%>,,@ ircc.ohio-state. \ + / {7%*@,..":27g)-=,#*:.#,/6&1*.4-,l@#9:-) " edu> \ + / BTW, WYSInaWYG \ + / --witty.saying.ARC
costis@csi.forth.gr (Costis Aivalis) (02/20/91)
jdb@reef.cis.ufl.edu (Brian K. W. Hook) writes: >In article <1991Feb17.180508.3223@bronze.ucs.indiana.edu> ntaib@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Nur Iskandar Taib) writes: ..... >|>Which brings up the point: what exactly is an IDE >|>drive? I'm familiar with ST506, SCSI, ESDI, MFM >|>and RLL, but IDE is a new term for me. >IDE can mean many different things to different people. I have heard it >mean Integrated Drive Electronics, Intelligent Drive Electronics, Integral >Drive Electronis, etc. etc. The first is the most common, but in general >the IDE interface is a relatively new and popular drive standard. It has >superseded both the RLL and MFM drive controllers as the controller of >choice for most computer companies. ...... >To sum: >Higher capacity, lower cost, MUCH lower power consumption, relatively high >speed (vs. RLL and MFM), and high efficiency. >Brian And what about Novell drivers? It seems that there are contrary informations from distributors about this. Novell authorized dealers say, the Conner-IDE CP3204 can not be the main disk of a ELS-II server. They also say forget about the Seagate ST2080A. They suggest one should use the Maxtor 7080A (IDE also). What is the big difference between these IDE drives that makes some of them capable of running Novell and others not? Is the Maxtor 7080A IDE? Constantine +-----------------------------+-------------------------------+ | Costis Aivalis | costis@csi.forth.gr | +-----------------------------+-------------------------------+