ntaib@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Nur Iskandar Taib) (02/26/91)
Summary: A few people wrote: why build a clone instead of buying one? After actually comparing prices, I'll have to agree. If its savings you're after, you won't save much, about $100, at least on the high end machines. If you'd like to learn about hardware, or are doing it out of sheer adven- ture, it might be a good idea. You don't get the TRW ser- vice warranty, though. Motherboards: There was a long thread about DTK MBs on comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware. Basically, some had incompa- tibilities with certain video and controller boards. A larger number of people wrote and said they didn't have any problems with them. These other MBs got favorable comments: Mylex, Omnitel, Micronics, Cache Computers. The thing to watch out for are a name brand BIOS (AMI, Phoenix, Award) and a good chipset (C&T, Tseng, Micro- nics?, Intel etc.). There are something like 30-40 dif- ferent motherboard manufacturers out there though. Hard drives: The consensus seems to be Conners are best, Seagates are OK, stay away from Miniscribes, and Maxtors aren't too great. IDE's got some good comments, but there has been some traffic on the Net recently about the ina- bility to low-level format the things when they start hiccuping. The Mitsubishi 535 got a favorable mention. The ST4096 supposedly has problems. Keyboard: Northgate or Fujitsu. Get the 4700 Fujitsu, not the 4800. Video: The Samsung Syncmaster .28 got a favorable mention. Cheap VGA/SVGA cards seem OK in general, but may not work with cheap (Kumi, Bullet, Quantum, Hyundai, Nanao) monitors. The Orchid Prodesigner II has gotten great reviews for its speed. Chassis: Get a good, well-filtered power supply. Get a full size case rather than a Baby AT - runs cooler. Floppies: TEACs are supposedly the best. Vendors: JDR is good, but pricey. Its OK for buying compo- nents but not whole systems or kits. One person says to avoid Jameco. PC Express, Altex, PC Warehouse and Adtech got favorable mentions. So did Bulldog. Many people made the comment that they bought from local clone houses. It would be easier to get replacements that way. Below are the mail messages I received. Read them if you like, otherwise type n. There are some interesting things said that would be worth looking at. Iskandar --------------------------------------------------------------- From ong@d.cs.okstate.edu Fri Feb 15 11:50:13 1991 Received: by silver.ucs.indiana.edu (5.57/9.2jsm) id AA07428; Fri, 15 Feb 91 11:50:09 -0500 Date: Fri, 15 Feb 91 10:41:51 CST From: ong@d.cs.okstate.edu To: ntaib@silver.ucs.indiana.edu Status: OR Subject: Re: building a clone: good stuff vs. trash? ntaib@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Nur Iskandar Taib): > I am about to start construction on a clone, and would > like some advice about where to begin. First of all, there > are something like 50 ads in Computer Shopper for compo- > nents, but precious little advice about what to buy. > > Has anyone else built a clone? Any advice to give me? What > companies should I avoid? JDR has a good reputation, but > their prices are a little high. The cheaper companies are > relatively unknown. How far can you trust a company called > "Bulldog"? A couple friends have done this before and suggest > MicroLab in Minnesota and CompuTrend in California. Are these > good places? I just built 2 386's for my department 2 weeks ago. Got motherboards from JDR, hard and floppy drives, graphics card/monitor, and memory from Hard Drive International, and the rest (casing, power supply, drive controller, etc) from Altex. I would have gotten the motherboard too from Altex but they did not have the 386 25MHz version at that time. > What motherboards are best and what should be avoided? Which > bioses are best? What about those $40 keyboards (even those > with the "Alps switches")? What about video cards and moni- > tors? Are major brands (Orchid, Paradise) better than something > like "Great Tek VGA"? How would one find drivers for these > generic boards? Are Samsung monitors any good? I got the cheapest item each from those shops. Managed to make-do somehow. In order to fit MINI 386 motherboard into XT casing, there is actually 4 (instead of 9) points to stick the motherboard to the casing. Since these are desktop, 4 is fine with me. Got XT 200watt powersupply too. I don't really care much about graphics brand. Just get 16-bit versions. Most has drivers for popular software (I didn't even ask them about the driver at the time, just found out they are there when I open the graphics card box, I have opened 4 nobrand graphics VGA cards in this year, and all of them have drivers). Same with monitors. > Then there are the hard drives. What to buy and what to avoid? > Are Kaloks, for instance, any good? Everyone is going Conners! > So if you've built a clone, or know of someone who has, please > share your experiences. (If you've had a bad experience, here > is your chance to vent your spleen!) Mail is welcome, and I'll > post a summary after a while. And thanks in advance. Bad experience? What bad experience? Just don't panic and do something stupid. Call the shop back for help if needed. Don't low-level format IDE drives. Don't leave any screws "somewhere" inside the casing. Just email me if you run into trouble. No gaurrantee I could help, but I will try (experience: 6 clones built!). > By the way, the system I have in mind is a 25 MHz 386 on which > I intend to run Windows 3, so I suppose Bios and video compati- > bility are major considerations. > Altex said they are finally getting in 25MHz 386 motherboard, you might want to check their price. E. Teng Ong (ong@d.cs.okstate.edu) From janh@lsid.hp.com Fri Feb 15 10:00:23 1991 Received: by silver.ucs.indiana.edu (5.57/9.2jsm) id AA03897; Fri, 15 Feb 91 10:00:19 -0500 Received: from hplsly.lsid.hp.com by relay.hp.com with SMTP (16.5/15.5+IOS 3.13) id AA10340; Fri, 15 Feb 91 07:00:12 -0800 Received: by hplsly.lsid.hp.com (15.11/15.5+IOS 3.22) id AA03284; Fri, 15 Feb 91 07:00:06 pst Date: Fri, 15 Feb 91 07:00:06 pst From: Jan Hofland <janh@lsid.hp.com> Message-Id: <9102151500.AA03284@hplsly.lsid.hp.com> To: ntaib@silver.ucs.indiana.edu Subject: Re: building a clone: good stuff vs. trash? Newsgroups: comp.sys.ibm.pc In-Reply-To: article <1991Feb15.000423.26009@bronze.ucs.indiana.edu> of Fri, 15 Feb 1991 00:04:23 GMT Status: OR re: building your own system My only suggestion is to carefully price out what it's going to cost you for components and then compare it to the price for a tested and warranteed system from someone like Gateway 2000. It's my understanding that the savings is minimal and the risk of problems reasonably high. I'd be inclined to buy a system already put together. I recently helped a friend 'upgrade' his XT by adding a 286 motherboard. Before we were done, he added a hard drive, a floppy, a power supply, a case, a keyboard, a couple of disk drive interfaces, and VGA. I'd guess he's spent more that if he just bought a put together system. I know that what he has would be very difficult to resell. My 2 cents. Regards, Jan Hofland From coplex!ken@uunet.uu.net Fri Feb 15 08:42:47 1991 Received: by silver.ucs.indiana.edu (5.57/9.2jsm) id AA02217; Fri, 15 Feb 91 08:42:45 -0500 Received: from mimsy.UUCP by rutgers.edu (5.59/SMI4.0/RU1.4/3.08) with UUCP id AA29359; Fri, 15 Feb 91 07:43:01 EST Received: by mimsy.UMD.EDU (5.61/UMIACS-0.9/04-05-88) id AA27769; Fri, 15 Feb 91 07:42:29 -0500 Received: from coplex.UUCP by uunet.UU.NET (5.61/1.14) with UUCP id AA07419; Fri, 15 Feb 91 07:38:21 -0500 Received: by coplex.uucp (/\=-/\ Smail3.1.18.1 #18.3) id <m0j74cA-0000jeC@coplex.uucp>; Fri, 15 Feb 91 07:32 EST Message-Id: <m0j74cA-0000jeC@coplex.uucp> Date: Fri, 15 Feb 91 07:32 EST From: coplex!ken@uunet.uu.net (Ken Cornetet) To: ntaib@silver.ucs.indiana.edu Subject: Re: building a clone: good stuff vs. trash? Newsgroups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.misc References: <1991Feb15.000423.26009@bronze.ucs.indiana.edu> Status: OR Nur, I recently put together a 386sx system. I bought a motherboard and RAM from a local place here in Jasper IN. for about the same price the mail order companies were asking! You may want to check some of your local computer stores. I am using a Mitsubishi 535 disk drive with a DTC RLL controller for 60 mega- bytes. The Mitsubishi workds great (even RLL). I highly recommend it. Good luck! From lairdt@mist.cs.orst.edu Fri Feb 15 01:30:22 1991 Received: by silver.ucs.indiana.edu (5.57/9.2jsm) id AA10484; Fri, 15 Feb 91 01:30:19 -0500 Received: by mist.CS.ORST.EDU (5.61/1.34) id AA22866; Thu, 14 Feb 91 22:30:07 -0800 Date: Thu, 14 Feb 91 22:30:07 -0800 From: Tom Laird <lairdt@mist.cs.orst.edu> Message-Id: <9102150630.AA22866@mist.CS.ORST.EDU> To: ntaib@silver.ucs.indiana.edu Subject: Re: building a clone: good stuff vs. trash? Newsgroups: comp.sys.ibm.pc In-Reply-To: <1991Feb15.000423.26009@bronze.ucs.indiana.edu> Organization: Computer Science Department, Oregon State Univ. Cc: Status: OR I have built over 30 clones for individual customers, and have found a number of good sources in Calif. for parts. I live in Calif (though I'm in school in Oregon at the moment), and I'll give you some info on some of the places I have liked. First of all, JDR is a good place to get some parts, however not good if you want to get an entire system. Entire systems are a bit on the spendy side, and can be purchased from other places. JDR is however a good place to buy some added components such as added serialport i/o chips and such. Also, if you intend on re-building your clone in the future they have some very good individual parts. The best items they have are their chassis. I'm running with one of their super towers ($500 chassis) and I have never found anything better. Avoid Jameco. You should place a call to a place called PC Warehouse. They are locaed in Palo Alto & Sunnyvale Calif. I recently purchased components from my brother-in-laws system, and they had the best prices around. They will ship systemsI believe. There systems incluse the following: 1.2 5.25" teac,2 serial 1 par,1 game, 1:1 hd/fd controller, AMI bios,101 keyboard, 1year warranty. Price depends on what you want: 286-12 =$379,386sx =$599,386-25 =$839, 386-25 w/64kcache =$949, 386-33 w/64kcache =$1089, 486-25 w/64kcache=$1799. All systems do NOT include hard drive or video components, though an IDE controller is included (the 1:1 hd/fd controller previously mentioned). Dependinon what you want in your system, you may want to get that someplace else. Prices always are moving around anyway. A good way to save some $$ would be to get your haqd drive from Hard Drives International. Be sure that you get a controller card for it, unless your barebones system includes it (like the IDE above). If you are making a system that will be a file server or needs to be as fast as possible, do NOT use an IDE controller card. IDE is SLOW! While IDE is the current rage, it is slightly faster than MFM (old format), and slower than RLL. If you need speed get an ESDI controller. Never buy a SCSI drive for a PC clone. SCSI isn't supported by much. Stay away from brand names of Kumi, Bullet, Quantum, Hyundai & Nanao. Try to go with more well known names if you want a good system. ie:a cheap clone Trident video card works well with an NEC or Sony Multi-sync monitor, but wouldn't work well with a Kumi,Hyundai or similar cheap monitor. Get a copy of Computer Shopper and scan it for the base price on the system you want to have. Expect to pay more. Simm memory currently goes for $49 a meg for 1mx1bit simms. Some places are $59...don't go much higher unless you really want to. get at least 2 megs, preferably 4megs (4megs is cheaper if you ever decied you want to upgrade your memory). Get a fullsized AT chassis, not a baby at chassis. If you get a tower chassis make sure it's one of the bigger ones. Smaller chassis (desk or tower) run much hotter. Get a 220 watt power supply or larger. If you have any questions drop my a reply to lairdt@mist.cs.orst.edu Good luck.e From smsmith@hpuxa.ircc.ohio-state.edu Thu Feb 14 19:52:45 1991 Received: by silver.ucs.indiana.edu (5.57/9.2jsm) id AA27383; Thu, 14 Feb 91 19:52:41 -0500 Received: by hpuxa.ircc.ohio-state.edu (15.11/15.6) id AA27327; Thu, 14 Feb 91 19:52:28 est Date: Thu, 14 Feb 91 19:52:28 est From: Stephen M. Smith <smsmith@hpuxa.ircc.ohio-state.edu> To: ntaib@silver.ucs.indiana.edu Subject: Re: building a clone: good stuff vs. trash? Newsgroups: comp.sys.ibm.pc In-Reply-To: <1991Feb15.000423.26009@bronze.ucs.indiana.edu> Organization: The Ohio State University Status: OR A while back I posted a note in answer to someone who wanted to build their own computer. It's a little outdated now, but you might find it helpful: _______________________________________________________ ravi (skumar@hocus.att.com) writes: >I am trying to build a 386 IBM compatible machine and I would >like hear experiences and things to avoid from people who have >done so. Also recommendations on mail order companies would be >appreciated. Is there any reason that you don't want to buy a complete system from a mail order company? You can't really save much money by building one yourself, and the risks and hassle involved might easily outweigh the benefits. A couple weeks ago someone on the net said they wanted to build their own 386 because they wanted to learn more about PC's and to get the experience; they also pointed out that they realized they weren't saving that much money, but they wanted to "do it themselves" to find out more about how systems work. That to me is a good reason for wanting to build own's own computer; but I personally don't think one should do it to try to save money--especially if you're a novice. Here's an example of what I mean: 386-33 motherboard, 128k (25ns) SRAM, $ 900 (?) AMI BIOS, C & T chip set, quality 6-layer construction, 1 year parts and labor 4 MEG RAM (80ns) $ 240 (?) TEAC 1.2M and 1.44M floppies $ 130 Micropolis 161 MEG HD (150,000 MTBFR) $ 899 Adaptec 64k caching controller $ 169 Sony 1304 (.25, non-interlaced) $ 849 *and* Orchid ProDesigner II w/512k I/O card (1 parallel/2 ser/1 game) $ 29 Case, power supply, *good* keyboard $ 225 (?) DOS 4.01 $ 65 various shipping charges/cables/misc. $ 50 (?) TOTAL: $3556 These are actual or approximate street prices for *quality* name brand components. These are also the same components which EPS Technologies puts in its 386-33 system, and that company sells the bundled package for $3750. Plus they have free lifetime tech support (how much money will you spend just calling around to get all your parts?), and they, like other companies, have a 60 day money back guarantee and 1 year parts and labor. Yes, yes, yes...you can put together a *cheaper* system by buying *cheaper* components--but remember, you get what you pay for. You can spend less money an a less reliable drive than the Micropolis, but hard drive failure is one of the major causes of system malfunction. Or you can save a few hundred dollars by buying an interlaced 1024x768 .28 dpi monitor with a cheap interlacing board, but your graphics performance will suffer dramatically. And, in fact, you can buy a cheap power supply, cheap keyboard, cheap motherboard, etc., but you will end up with a *cheap* system (and I don't mean just inexpensive!). So you might spend ~$2700 for a similar system, but you will also find mail order companies that put together the same cheap components and sell them for ~$3000, so you're still not saving that much if you go that route anyway. And instead of being able to deal with just one company if something goes wrong, you deal with a number of manufacturers. Let's say that you have hard drive problems with your home built system. If you call your hard drive supplier he may not know what is wrong, so he might refer you to the manufacturer or to the controller card supplier. So you call your controller supplier and *he* says "hmmm...sounds like a hard drive problem to me." Okay, okay...so you have an IDE drive with the controller built in...well, the same thing applies to the monitor and the video card: Monitor retailer: "I'm not sure what's causing that problem; sounds like your video card is doing something funny." Video card retailer: "Check with your monitor manufacturer to see if you can get the monitor exchanged." And what happens if one of the components malfunctions in such a way that it causes damage to another component? No warranty is going to cover *that*; but a mail order company's warranty covers things like that. Then there's the compatibility to worry about. A good mail order company tests its equipment to be sure that it is both compatible with different operating systems (DOS, Unix, OS/2) and that each of the components works well with the other components. How do you know that you will even be able to put all the pieces together when they arrive? I know that sounds absurd, but just read a few PC Magazine reviews to find out how some mail order companies had to do some major tinkering to this!!! I'm talking about rerouting wires across the mother- board's slots, and even drilling holes for screws. There was even a review on a system that claimed to have a certain number of free slots on the motherboard, but the case was built in such a way that they were completely inaccessible unless you took some tin snips and cut off part of the back of the case! (And then there was the person who had a motherboard short out on the *case* because it wouldn't fit right.) So I guess a person has to be careful about ordering a cheap, prepackaged system from a mail order company as well. IMHO, this is why a person should buy an FCC Class "B" machine if at all possible. It is a hassle for a company to get the "B" rating, so usually they make sure that it's a *darn good* package before they submit it for testing because once it pasts the test, the mail order company cannot (legally) replace any components in the system. Many companies (like PC Brand) will basically put together the parts that they can get *cheapest* from the various manufacturers. So they can offer better prices, but they can never advertise specific components since they change the components so often. Anyway, I'm not saying that you *shouldn't* build your own 386; but you *should* weigh the options heavily before deciding to do so. S. "Stevie" Smith \ + / <smsmith@hpuxa. \+++++/ " #*&<-[89s]*(k#$@-_=//a2$]'+=.(2_&*%>,,@ ircc.ohio-state. \ + / {7%*@,..":27g)-=,#*:.#,/6&1*.4-,l@#9:-) " edu> \ + / BTW, WYSInaWYG \ + / --witty.saying.ARC From annmh@blake.u.washington.edu Thu Feb 14 20:00:35 1991 Received: by silver.ucs.indiana.edu (5.57/9.2jsm) id AA27701; Thu, 14 Feb 91 20:00:33 -0500 Received: by blake.u.washington.edu (5.61/UW-NDC Revision: 2.1 ) id AA17125; Thu, 14 Feb 91 17:00:14 -0800 Date: Thu, 14 Feb 91 17:00:14 -0800 From: Ann Harrington <annmh@blake.u.washington.edu> Message-Id: <9102150100.AA17125@blake.u.washington.edu> To: ntaib@silver.ucs.indiana.edu Subject: Re: building a clone: good stuff vs. trash? Newsgroups: comp.sys.ibm.pc In-Reply-To: <1991Feb15.000423.26009@bronze.ucs.indiana.edu> Organization: University of Washington, Seattle Cc: Status: OR In article <1991Feb15.000423.26009@bronze.ucs.indiana.edu> you write: >Has anyone else built a clone? Any advice to give me? What >companies should I avoid? JDR has a good reputation, but >their prices are a little high. The cheaper companies are >relatively unknown. How far can you trust a company called >"Bulldog"? A couple friends have done this before and suggest >MicroLab in Minnesota and CompuTrend in California. Are these >good places? I built a clone, using all JDR stuff, and it's always worked fine except for a little memory quirk (occasionally it doesn't "find" all it's memory on bootup - no major problem, just have to boot up again). Their prices weren't all that high when I built this (three and a half years ago), and only Bulldog was lower, so I dunno. I was impressed with their willingness to give free tech help, though. Haven't heard of the other two places you mention. >What motherboards are best and what should be avoided? Which >bioses are best? What about those $40 keyboards (even those >with the "Alps switches")? What about video cards and moni- >tors? Are major brands (Orchid, Paradise) better than something >like "Great Tek VGA"? How would one find drivers for these >generic boards? Are Samsung monitors any good? Things that I know about that you might find useful: I got JDR's Hercules compatible board with CGA emulation software, and have never had trouble with it. The Hercules compatibility is excellent, I even run Windows 3 with it. Sometimes other "Herc compatible" boards aren't really all that compatible, just wanted you to know that that one is. But if you're looking for VGA....well, I haven't gotten around to upgrading yet. My keyboard was JDR's lowest-price one, never had a problem. No funny switches for it though. My Samsung monitor is fine, I would get another given the option. >Then there are the hard drives. What to buy and what to avoid? >Are Kaloks, for instance, any good? Can't help you here, I went for a Seagate. >So if you've built a clone, or know of someone who has, please >share your experiences. (If you've had a bad experience, here >is your chance to vent your spleen!) Mail is welcome, and I'll >post a summary after a while. And thanks in advance. One interesting experience to relate is with my floppy drives. They came with a small black sticker on the front that blended in with the black plastic of the faceplate. I peeled it off, and underneath was the IBM logo embossed into the plastic. I've occasionally had read errors with one of these drives, so you may want to check and see if you're getting something from a major manufacturer's reject pile (bad), or simply from over- production (ok) or from an independent manufacturer (nobody else's label on the stuff). Lastly, I will always treasure the double-ended phillips/slot screwdriver that JDR sent with its parts! Gawd, that's useful! -Ann annmh@blake.u.washington.edu From bronze!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!spool.mu.edu!think.com!mintaka!ogicse!usenet!yoko!ross Fri Feb 15 16:19:25 EST 1991 Article 59127 of comp.sys.ibm.pc: Path: bronze!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!spool.mu.edu!think.com!mintaka!ogicse!usenet!yoko!ross >From: ross@yoko.stat.orst.edu (David Ross) Newsgroups: comp.sys.ibm.pc Subject: Re: building a clone: good stuff vs. trash? Keywords: clone,homebuilt,motherboard Message-ID: <1991Feb15.071535.27615@lynx.CS.ORST.EDU> Date: 15 Feb 91 07:15:35 GMT Article-I.D.: lynx.1991Feb15.071535.27615 References: <1991Feb15.000423.26009@bronze.ucs.indiana.edu> <26936@uflorida.cis.ufl.EDU> Sender: @lynx.CS.ORST.EDU Organization: Oregon State University Lines: 8 Nntp-Posting-Host: stat.orst.edu Status: OR In article <26936@uflorida.cis.ufl.EDU> jdb@reef.cis.ufl.edu (Brian K. W. Hook) writes: >Recommendatin: > >Northgate or Fujitsu keyboard (50-120 dollars) ^^^^^ Warning: there are 2 Fuji keyboards generally for sale. The 4700 is quite nice, the 4800 is just passable. If you're buying mail order, make sure the person taking the order hears you correctly. From bronze!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!src.honeywell.com!msi.umn.edu!cs.umn.edu!ianhogg Fri Feb 15 16:20:28 EST 1991 Article 59129 of comp.sys.ibm.pc: Newsgroups: comp.sys.ibm.pc Path: bronze!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!src.honeywell.com!msi.umn.edu!cs.umn.edu!ianhogg >From: ianhogg@cs.umn.edu (Ian J. Hogg) Subject: Re: building a clone: good stuff vs. trash? Message-ID: <1991Feb15.184449.21942@cs.umn.edu> Keywords: clone,homebuilt,motherboard Organization: University of Minnesota, Minneapolis, CSci dept. References: <1991Feb15.000423.26009@bronze.ucs.indiana.edu> <26936@uflorida.cis.ufl.EDU> Date: Fri, 15 Feb 91 18:44:49 GMT Lines: 45 Status: OR In article <26936@uflorida.cis.ufl.EDU> jdb@reef.cis.ufl.edu (Brian K. W. Hook) writes: > [ deleted things about component recommendations, ] >Recommendatin: > >386-33 Micronics MB w/ 8MB and 32k cache (1800 total mail order) >Logix 1MB ET4000 based board (189 dollars mail order from Logix) >Samsung Syncmaster .28 monitor (~430 dollars) >Northgate or Fujitsu keyboard (50-120 dollars) >Seagate ST1144 (?) 20ms 125MB IDE (around 500 mail order) >TEAC floppy (65 mail order) >Logitech Mouseman or MS Mouse (~80 dollars) > >You total it....I don't have a calculator handy. I total it and I get about $3035 without the mouse. I'm picking up a new system today that is configured as follows: PC Express 386-33mhz system 2530 Wedge Motherboard w/64k cache 4MB ram 1.2MB and 1.4 MB floppies (TEAC) Panasync 1381c monitor DOS 4.1 installed 100 MB IDE drive Focus 16 bit SVGA with 1MB I put together the following upgrades: Diamond SpeedStar 1MB SVGA 79 Seagate ST1144A disc drive 40 Mini Tower case 39 total price: 2688 If you added a second floppy to your recommedation we'd have about a $400 price difference with the major discrepancy being 4Mb of RAM. Can I get 4 MB ram for less than $400? > >Brian -- =============================================================================== Ian Hogg ianhogg@cs.umn.edu (612) 225-1401 From bronze!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!samsung!emory!ogicse!usenet!mist.CS.ORST.EDU!lairdt Fri Feb 15 16:20:55 EST 1991 Article 59130 of comp.sys.ibm.pc: Path: bronze!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!samsung!emory!ogicse!usenet!mist.CS.ORST.EDU!lairdt >From: lairdt@mist.CS.ORST.EDU (Tom Laird) Newsgroups: comp.sys.ibm.pc Subject: Re: building a clone: good stuff vs. trash? Keywords: clone,homebuilt,motherboard Message-ID: <1991Feb15.201920.13743@lynx.CS.ORST.EDU> Date: 15 Feb 91 20:19:20 GMT References: <1991Feb15.000423.26009@bronze.ucs.indiana.edu> <26936@uflorida.cis.ufl.EDU> <1991Feb15.184449.21942@cs.umn.edu> Sender: @lynx.CS.ORST.EDU Organization: Computer Science Department, Oregon State Univ. Lines: 31 Nntp-Posting-Host: mist.cs.orst.edu Status: OR In article <1991Feb15.184449.21942@cs.umn.edu> ianhogg@cs.umn.edu (Ian J. Hogg) writes: > [Stuff deleted] > > I total it and I get about $3035 without the mouse. I'm picking up a new >system today that is configured as follows: > > PC Express 386-33mhz system 2530 > Wedge Motherboard w/64k cache > 4MB ram > 1.2MB and 1.4 MB floppies (TEAC) > Panasync 1381c monitor > DOS 4.1 installed > 100 MB IDE drive > Focus 16 bit SVGA with 1MB > > I put together the following upgrades: > Diamond SpeedStar 1MB SVGA 79 > Seagate ST1144A disc drive 40 > Mini Tower case 39 > > total price: 2688 > >If you added a second floppy to your recommedation we'd have about a $400 >price difference with the major discrepancy being 4Mb of RAM. Can I get >4 MB ram for less than $400? First of all I'd get a different chassis. The smaller chassis run hotter and are a big pain to upgrade at any point - not enough space. I also would avoid an IDE drive, especially a Seagate. IDE drives are SLOW and turn out about 500-600k per second throughput - a bad idea to hook up such a slow drive to a fast system. From ntaib@ucs.indiana.edu Sat Feb 16 13:34:01 1991 Received: from PRISM.DECnet MAIL11D_V3 by silver.ucs.indiana.edu (5.57/9.2jsm) id AA11047; Sat, 16 Feb 91 13:33:52 -0500 Date: Sat, 16 Feb 91 13:33:51 -0500 From: ntaib@ucs.indiana.edu (Iskandar Taib) To: ntaib@silver.ucs.indiana.edu Subject: clone Status: OR From: AQUA::WINS%"wayne@teemc.TMC.MI.ORG" 16-FEB-1991 04:07:19.53 To: NTAIB CC: Subj: Re: building a clone: good stuff vs. trash? Return-Path: <teemc!wayne@sharkey.cc.umich.edu> Received: from sharkey.cc.umich.edu by aqua.ucs.indiana.edu with SMTP ; Sat, 16 Feb 91 04:07:13 EST Received: by sharkey.cc.umich.edu (5.64/1123-1.0) id AA06229; Sat, 16 Feb 91 04:07:06 -0500 Received: by teemc.TMC.MI.ORG (smail2.5) id AA04020; 15 Feb 91 11:19:24 EST (Fri) To: NTAIB@AQUA.UCS.INDIANA.EDU Subject: Re: building a clone: good stuff vs. trash? Newsgroups: comp.sys.ibm.pc In-Reply-To: <1991Feb15.000423.26009@bronze.ucs.indiana.edu> Organization: TMC & Associates, Troy, MI Cc: Message-Id: <9102151119.AA04016@teemc.TMC.MI.ORG> Date: 15 Feb 91 11:19:24 EST (Fri) From: wayne@teemc.TMC.MI.ORG (Michael R. Wayne) In article <1991Feb15.000423.26009@bronze.ucs.indiana.edu> you write: >I am about to start construction on a clone, and would >like some advice about where to begin. First of all, there >are something like 50 ads in Computer Shopper for compo- >nents, but precious little advice about what to buy. > Keyboard: Northgate. Period. You use the kb more then anything else, buy the best. Motherboard: I'm REAL happy w/ my cache computers 25 MHz 386 w/ 32K cache. Byte reviewed MB's in late 89 andrated cache the best for the $$. I can't disagree. Runs Unix, Dos (3.3 & 4.0), windows, OS/2, all w/ no probs. Lets you run the bus at 12.5 MHz also, which helps. Uses 16 SIMMs (256K or 1MB). Drives: I use a 660 MB SCSI which might be a bit big for you. Controller is Adaptec 1542A, the 1542B is out, similar board, a bit smaller. If you bet one BUY THE KIT since it includes all the drivers you will need. The bare board costs only a bit less and it's a real pain to buy drivers later (and expensive). Floppies, buy a brand that you have heard of that is inexpensive. I think I have NEC and Toshiba (3.5" and 5"). You said windows. Buy a Orchid Pro-Desigener II w/ 1MB for < $300. It'll do 1024x768x256. Looks real nice and it's FAST. I like my Sony 1304 monitor. Does 1024x768 in NON-interlaced mode. It's costly but I can't work on an interlaced tube for > 30 min w/o getting a headache. Feel free to write back, I'll answer questions but I may be a bit slow... /\/\ \/\/ -- Michael R. Wayne --- TMC & Associates --- wayne@teemc.tmc.mi.org Operator of the only 240 Horsepower UNIX machine in Michigan From ESR%SLACVM.BITNET@forsythe.stanford.edu Fri Feb 15 17:46:35 1991 Received: by silver.ucs.indiana.edu (5.57/9.2jsm) id AA20295; Fri, 15 Feb 91 17:46:33 -0500 Received: by Forsythe.Stanford.EDU; Fri, 15 Feb 91 14:46:34 PST Received: by SLACVM (Mailer R2.03B) id 6991; Fri, 15 Feb 91 14:44:49 PST Date: Fri, 15 Feb 1991 14:32 PST From: "Ed Russell" <ESR%SLACVM.BITNET@forsythe.stanford.edu> To: ntaib@silver.ucs.indiana.edu Subject: Re: building a clone: good stuff vs. trash? Status: OR You didn't say anything in your post about why you want to "roll your own". If your reason is cost, don't. You won't save much, if anything, and the hassle won't be worth it. You should also consider what recourse you have if the components don't work together. One of the advantages of buying from one of the clone shops is that they will assemble the thing, make sure it works, do the burn-in, and be available for problems. Here in Silicon Valley there are a couple of companies that help you build your own (or repair it). They sell components and help you assemble them. You might investigate something like that in your area. I have not gone through the exercise of building my own although I have changed a few components on occasion. However, from my own experience and what I have seen from others I would suggest the following: o Make sure your power supply is good quality, well filtered, etc. o Get a brand name BIOS and chip set. o Don't get cheapo brand hard disks. Be careful even with brand name ones. Sometimes certain models have problems even if most from that company are good. (For example, I have had, and seen, poor longevity from Seagate ST-4096. Other companies may have similar models.) o Do your homework in magazines like PC Magazine, Byte, etc. From SNOW@drycas.club.cc.cmu.edu Sat Feb 16 19:51:27 1991 Received: by silver.ucs.indiana.edu (5.57/9.2jsm) id AA24745; Sat, 16 Feb 91 19:51:26 -0500 Date: Sat, 16 Feb 1991 19:51 EST From: SNOW@drycas.club.cc.cmu.edu Subject: building a clone: good stuff vs. trash? To: ntaib@silver.ucs.indiana.edu Message-Id: <50117891EC005783@DRYCAS.CLUB.CC.CMU.EDU> X-Vms-To: IN%"ntaib@silver.ucs.indiana.edu" Status: OR Stick with TEAC floppy drives. Sony may make good 3.5" floppies, but their 3.5" drives won't stand up to abuse (I know this from REPEATED experience.) TEAC 1.2MB drives can successfully, and reliably, read and write 360K disks. I've never had to replace a TEAC drive (I've bought 9) except for the two I lost due to a lightning strike (replaced with the same model.) Don't waste your money on a UPS. Make sure your computer is covered by your insurance company. And keep all your receipts for all purchases! There's no need to protect a machine which will be obsolete in a few years anyway. Better to hope for a catastrophic loss, and replacement with new hardware. Unless you have a special room with well-controlled lighting, try to get a monitor with a Sony Trinitron tube. The Seiko CM1450 sounds good, but I haven't actually used one (I use a Zenith FTM-1490, which is absolutely flat, but it only does 640x480.) A big advantage of Trinitron monitors is the excellent dot pitch. Definitely stick with 1024x768 non-interlaced. Think of the people who bought EGA cards and EGA displays, versus the people who bought EGA cards and multisync displays. The multisync'ers were ready for VGA. You'll be ready for XGA, or whatever. Along the same lines, you may as well get a cheap VGA card. Make sure it has the feature connector. You may find a great deal on an 8514/A or some other VGA enhancement. You may as well get a cheap hard disk. After you run out of space, you'll have to replace it anyway. If you're getting a SCSI disk, go for quality. You can keep a SCSI disk forever, and it has the best chance of surviving the (inevitable) move to non-AT-compatible hardware. Jameco has decent (not great) prices on motherboards. They have a decent selection of I/O cards, as well. Try to get a motherboard which accepts 4MB SIPPs or SIMMs. They're the most expensive kind of memory right now, but they'll still work when you replace your motherboard with a 100MHz 80586 board which only takes 4MB SIPPs or 16MB SIPPs. Because I stayed away from 64K DRAMs and went with (then expensive) 256K DRAMs, I didn't have to buy any memory when I upgraded to a 386sx. This has gotten kind of long. I guess what I'm trying to say is, this stuff will all be obsolete soon. Make sure the heavy things like disks and monitors can survive the transition. Cheap board-level stuff like motherboards and expansion cards can be sacrificed. Today's state-of-the-art is tomorrow's least common denominator. -ken From mra%srchtec.UUCP@mathcs.emory.edu Mon Feb 18 11:03:04 1991 Received: from emory.mathcs.emory.edu by silver.ucs.indiana.edu (5.57/9.2jsm) id AA07979; Mon, 18 Feb 91 11:03:01 -0500 Received: from stiatl.UUCP by emory.mathcs.emory.edu (5.59/2.17.EUCC-MathCS) via UUCP id AA08565 ; Mon, 18 Feb 91 11:02:51 EST Return-Path: mra%srchtec.UUCP@mathcs.emory.edu Received: by stiatl.salestech.com (smail2.5) id AA07166; 18 Feb 91 11:03:03 EST (Mon) Received: by srchtec.searchtech.com (/\=-/\ Smail3.1.18.1 #18.20) id <m0j80Rp-000NnZC@srchtec.searchtech.com>; Sun, 17 Feb 91 21:17 EST Message-Id: <m0j80Rp-000NnZC@srchtec.searchtech.com> Date: Sun, 17 Feb 91 21:17 EST From: mra%searchtech.com@mathcs.emory.edu (Michael Almond) To: ntaib@silver.ucs.indiana.edu Subject: Re: building a clone: good stuff vs. trash? Newsgroups: comp.sys.ibm.pc In-Reply-To: <1991Feb15.000423.26009@bronze.ucs.indiana.edu> Organization: search technology, inc. Cc: Status: OR In article <1991Feb15.000423.26009@bronze.ucs.indiana.edu> you write: >I am about to start construction on a clone, and would >like some advice about where to begin. First of all, there >are something like 50 ads in Computer Shopper for compo- >nents, but precious little advice about what to buy. > >Has anyone else built a clone? Any advice to give me? What >companies should I avoid? JDR has a good reputation, but >their prices are a little high. The cheaper companies are >relatively unknown. How far can you trust a company called >"Bulldog"? A couple friends have done this before and suggest >MicroLab in Minnesota and CompuTrend in California. Are these >good places? "Bulldog" is a local company here is Atlanta. They use to be a setup similar to "Soft Warehouse". About a year ago they went totally to mail order. They have a really good reputation though. If you want to know more about the company, let me know. >What motherboards are best and what should be avoided? Which >bioses are best? What about those $40 keyboards (even those >with the "Alps switches")? What about video cards and moni- >tors? Are major brands (Orchid, Paradise) better than something >like "Great Tek VGA"? How would one find drivers for these >generic boards? Are Samsung monitors any good? Make sure you get a board that at least has the AMI Bios. If you can, get an AMI board also. Be sure it uses the Chips and Technologies chipset. >Then there are the hard drives. What to buy and what to avoid? >Are Kaloks, for instance, any good? Conner hard drives are the best. They are quiet and fast and competitively priced. NCR uses them in the PC's and Tower systems. DEC usses them in their RISC DECstations. >So if you've built a clone, or know of someone who has, please >share your experiences. (If you've had a bad experience, here >is your chance to vent your spleen!) Mail is welcome, and I'll >post a summary after a while. And thanks in advance. I have helped two people here build clones and am considering building one for my own use. >By the way, the system I have in mind is a 25 MHz 386 on which >I intend to run Windows 3, so I suppose Bios and video compati- >bility are major considerations. Trident SVGA based boards are the best. "Trident" is a chipset, not a board manufacturer. -- Michael R. Almond (Georgia Tech Alumnus) mra@srchtec.uucp (registered) search technology, inc. mra@searchtech.com 4725 peachtree corners cir., suite 200 emory!stiatl!srchtec!mra norcross, georgia 30092 (404) 441-1457 (office) [search]: Systems Engineering Approaches to Research and Development From <@po3.andrew.cmu.edu:dd2x+@andrew.cmu.edu> Mon Feb 18 11:48:26 1991 Received: by silver.ucs.indiana.edu (5.57/9.2jsm) id AA10170; Mon, 18 Feb 91 11:48:23 -0500 Received: by po3.andrew.cmu.edu (5.54/3.15) id <AA05002> for ntaib@silver.ucs.indiana.edu; Mon, 18 Feb 91 11:48:07 EST Received: via switchmail; Mon, 18 Feb 91 11:48:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from pcs8.andrew.cmu.edu via qmail ID </afs/andrew.cmu.edu/service/mailqs/q002/QF.Ebk0If:00WBMI0PlFa>; Mon, 18 Feb 91 11:47:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from pcs8.andrew.cmu.edu via qmail ID </afs/andrew.cmu.edu/usr6/dd2x/.Outgoing/QF.cbk0Icy00WBM01s2lU>; Mon, 18 Feb 91 11:47:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from VUI.PC.3.20.CUILIB.3.45.SNAP.2.5..anonymous..IBMPC via MS.5.6.pcs8.andrew.cmu.edu.rt_r3; Mon, 18 Feb 91 11:47:33 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <wbk0IZy00WBM01s2ZZ@andrew.cmu.edu> Date: Mon, 18 Feb 91 11:47:33 -0500 (EST) From: David Eugene Dwiggins <dd2x+@andrew.cmu.edu> To: ntaib@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Nur Iskandar Taib) Subject: Re: building a clone: good stuff vs. trash? Status: OR Well then, you know what an IDE drive is. It is either a SCSI, RLL, MFM, or whatever the manufacturer chooses it to be. Essentially it is one of the above drive types with the controller built in. Makes it cheaper/faster. The "IDE" interface is basically like a parallel port with some extra goodies. David From poffen@sj.ate.slb.com Tue Feb 19 09:29:55 1991 Received: by silver.ucs.indiana.edu (5.57/9.2jsm) id AA03368; Tue, 19 Feb 91 09:29:49 -0500 Received: from sjsca4.psi by ASC.SLB.COM (4.1/ASC Mailhost 3.12) id AA22843; Fri, 15 Feb 91 13:58:24 CST Date: Fri, 15 Feb 91 13:58:24 CST From: poffen@sj.ate.slb.com (Russ Poffenberger) Message-Id: <9102151958.AA22843@ASC.SLB.COM> To: ntaib@silver.ucs.indiana.edu X-Vms-To: silver.ucs.indiana.edu::ntaib Subject: Re: building a clone: good stuff vs. trash? Status: OR Cc: In article <1991Feb15.000423.26009@bronze.ucs.indiana.edu> you write: >I am about to start construction on a clone, and would >like some advice about where to begin. First of all, there >are something like 50 ads in Computer Shopper for compo- >nents, but precious little advice about what to buy. > >Has anyone else built a clone? Any advice to give me? What >companies should I avoid? JDR has a good reputation, but >their prices are a little high. The cheaper companies are >relatively unknown. How far can you trust a company called >"Bulldog"? A couple friends have done this before and suggest >MicroLab in Minnesota and CompuTrend in California. Are these >good places? > I made my clone from pieces from several different places. 1.) Got a 386/25 motherboard from Adtech (here in San Jose). It is an ECS motherboard, not bad. It has AMI BIOS. 2.) Got an Adaptec SCSI controller and drive from another local company, I forget the name. 3.) Got a Video-7 Fastwrite VGA and Panasonic monitor from yet another local company (Access Computer Technology) 4.) Got an aux 2 floppy controller (so I could have 4 floppies) from JDR. I have had no problems with this. As you notice, I tend to buy from local companies. Might cost a little more, but unless you are ABSILUTELY sure of what you want, and that it will work together with your other stuff, I recommend it. It is so much easier to go back and solve problems or return stuff face to face rather than over the phone or through mail. My impressions were.. Adtech knew a lot about motherboards, but not as much about peripherals, especially SCSI. The company I got the SCSI system from didn't know a WHOLE lot about it, but I was already pretty sure that it was what I wanted and that it would work. Just to make sure, I had them write on the invoice that I could return it (in the same condition) if it didn't work. JDR seems to be pretty good about their boards. They have a 30 day no question return policy. They are the only ones (out of 4 or 5) who understood that I wanted to add a third floppy, and knew that most systems need a controller with BIOS on board to recognize it. Other dealers said "Yeah, ours will work", but it didn't, or said "Impossible.". If you want to buy from a single place, I would recommend JDR. They have been around a long time, know what they are talking about, and have good warranty and return policies. Good luck! Russ Poffenberger DOMAIN: poffen@sj.ate.slb.com Schlumberger Technologies UUCP: {uunet,decwrl,amdahl}!sjsca4!poffen 1601 Technology Drive CIS: 72401,276 San Jose, Ca. 95110 (408)437-5254 From rutgers!ames!lll-winken!rtech!ingres.com!edg@iuvax.cs.indiana.edu Wed Feb 20 19:33:51 1991 Received: by silver.ucs.indiana.edu (5.57/9.2jsm) id AA25792; Wed, 20 Feb 91 19:33:49 -0500 Received: from ames.arc.nasa.gov by iuvax.cs.indiana.edu with SMTP (5.61+/1.4jsm) id AA27539; Wed, 20 Feb 91 19:33:46 -0500 Received: by ames.arc.nasa.gov (5.64/1.2); Wed, 20 Feb 91 16:33:39 -0800 Received: by lll-winken.LLNL.GOV (smail2.5) id AA16065; 20 Feb 91 16:23:45 PST (Wed) Received: from ingres.ingres.com (ingres.ARPA) by rtech.ingres.com (1.2/UUCP-Project/05.09.86) id AA10303; Wed, 20 Feb 91 15:22:39 pst Received: by ingres.ingres.com (5.57/INGRES/pony.04.18.90) id AA28479; Wed, 20 Feb 91 15:22:34 PST Received: by squid.ingres.com (5.61/INGRES/pony.04.18.90) id AA25806; Wed, 20 Feb 91 15:22:29 -0800 Date: Wed, 20 Feb 91 15:22:29 -0800 From: rutgers!ames!ingres.com!edg@iuvax.cs.indiana.edu (Ed Goldman) Message-Id: <9102202322.AA25806@squid.ingres.com> To: ntaib@silver.ucs.indiana.edu Subject: Re: building a clone: good stuff vs. trash? Newsgroups: comp.sys.ibm.pc In-Reply-To: <1991Feb15.000423.26009@bronze.ucs.indiana.edu> Organization: Ask Computer Systems Inc., Ingres Division, Alameda CA 94501 Cc: Status: OR In article <1991Feb15.000423.26009@bronze.ucs.indiana.edu> you write: > >What motherboards are best and what should be avoided? Which >bioses are best? Well, I'm shopping around for a clone and I've reached the following opinion based on what I've heard or seen: Best motherboards to get are either Mylex or Omnitel. They're both well- constructed (8-layer) and you can put up to 32MB of mem on the motherboard. I think they both use Phoenix BIOS and Omnitel will give you lifetime upgrades for the BIOS. AMI is the other BIOS, don't know much about it other than it seems to be on a lot of boards. Phoenix's has been in the BIOS business longer, and I've been happy with some of thier other products too. Oh, also, I think the Mylex board's cache can be increased above 64k, but Omnitel is fixed at 64k. All-in-all it's probably a wash between the 2 boards -- I'll probably get a clpone with the Omnitel. -edg- From SGREEN@umiami.ir.miami.edu Sun Feb 24 15:54:00 1991 Received: by silver.ucs.indiana.edu (5.57/9.2jsm) id AA11182; Sun, 24 Feb 91 15:53:55 -0500 Date: Sun, 24 Feb 91 15:51 EST From: "STEVEN GREEN, DEPT. BIOLOGY (305)284-4272" <SGREEN@umiami.ir.miami.edu> Subject: Reply to news posting To: ntaib@silver.ucs.indiana.edu Message-Id: <B48810A4A5CF602542@umiami.IR.Miami.EDU> X-Envelope-To: ntaib@silver.ucs.indiana.edu X-Vms-To: IN%"ntaib@silver.ucs.indiana.edu" X-Vms-Cc: SGREEN Status: OR >I'd like to avoid on my new machine. Would a faster >processor work better than fast video? > Go for the faster video -Orchid ProDesigner II with 1 Mb video ram. I've got both kinds of systems and this is definitely faster at graphics screens. If the SX is a -20 rather than a -16, try to get one with memory-caching also. Even a small cache makes a big difference in throughput. Please summarize and post replies if you get a few. - Thanx, Steve -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Iskandar Taib | The only thing worse than Peach ala Internet: NTAIB@AQUA.UCS.INDIANA.EDU | Frog is Frog ala Peach Bitnet: NTAIB@IUBACS ! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------