[comp.sys.ibm.pc.misc] Open Letter to an MS-DOS User

derosa@motcid.UUCP (John DeRosa) (03/27/91)

Subject: Re: Windows 3.0 & ATM 1.0 problem
Newsgroups: comp.windows.ms,comp.lang.postscript

In comp.lang.postscript you write:

>I just finished the installation of the ATM (I checked the atm.txt
>file said it is 1.0 although it cam with the Times New Roman and Gill
>Sans fonts) that came with Pagemaker 4.0 along with the ~100 fonts
>from cica.cica.indiana.edu (pub/pc/win3/fonts). Boy was it a pain in
>the butt to modify the win.ini file to support automatic downloading
>of those additional fonts.

I know that you don't want to hear this but.....you are obviously
a talented computer professional that finds modification of the 
init and configuration files in the MS-DOS world a "pain in the
butt".  I was in your same place a year ago or so, forever fighting
to get my MS-DOS machine to do what I wanted it to do.

I finally did the right thing and bought a different computer.

ATM on this computer only required placing the necessary files
in a single directory and rebooting the computer.  I have 40
adobe font families and they all work just fine together.  ALL
of my programs can (without any reconfiguration) utilize
all these fonts.  Life is good and it was so easy.

Of couse on this computer system changing many things like this,
printer drivers, fonts, accessories, and other pieces of 
auto loading software is just as easy.  Just copy it from 
the floppy to the hard disk and, voila, any and all applications
can gain access to these common resources.  COMMON RESOURCES,
this appears to be the most efficient way for computers
to operate.  

MicroSoft Windows is heading that way....but only if you
have the updated programs....and the latest system...now
that will mean how much money?....where do these files need
to be?.....what was the name of that path?....christ, I
misspelled it again...oh, and about the config.sys...or was
it the exec.bat....or win.ini....hell, never mind......you need 
to have a degree in CS to get a handle on this thing.....
need a bigger hard drive....what type of controller is it?
.....must partition it.....3-1/2", shit I need 5-1/4"...
..THIS is the computer for the masses?.....rm *.*..
....damn.....the file name is docsub12.txt....what was
in that again?......8 characters only file names are
a "pain in the butt"....

Can you guess the name of my computer system?  Remember 
that you are a computer professional, don't go off 
and start flaming, treat this as a professional discussion.
-- 
=       John DeRosa, Motorola, Inc, Cellular Infrastructure Group          =
= e-mail:    ...uunet!motcid!derosaj, motcid!derosaj@uunet.uu.net          =
= Applelink: N1111                                                         =
=I do not hold by employer responsible for any information in this message =

tabu6@CCVAX.IASTATE.EDU (Adam Goldberg) (03/27/91)

In article <6078@crystal9.UUCP>, derosa@motcid.UUCP (John DeRosa) writes:
>Subject: Re: Windows 3.0 & ATM 1.0 problem
>Newsgroups: comp.windows.ms,comp.lang.postscript
>
>In comp.lang.postscript you write:
>
>>I just finished the installation of the ATM (I checked the atm.txt
>>file said it is 1.0 although it cam with the Times New Roman and Gill
>>Sans fonts) that came with Pagemaker 4.0 along with the ~100 fonts
>>from cica.cica.indiana.edu (pub/pc/win3/fonts). Boy was it a pain in
>>the butt to modify the win.ini file to support automatic downloading
>>of those additional fonts.
>
>I know that you don't want to hear this but.....you are obviously
>a talented computer professional that finds modification of the 
>init and configuration files in the MS-DOS world a "pain in the
>butt".  I was in your same place a year ago or so, forever fighting
>to get my MS-DOS machine to do what I wanted it to do.
>
>I finally did the right thing and bought a different computer.
>  
>  [complaits censored]
>
>.....damn.....the file name is docsub12.txt....what was
>in that again?......8 characters only file names are
>a "pain in the butt"....
>
>Can you guess the name of my computer system?  Remember 
>that you are a computer professional, don't go off 
>and start flaming, treat this as a professional discussion.
>-- 
>=       John DeRosa, Motorola, Inc, Cellular Infrastructure Group          =
>= e-mail:    ...uunet!motcid!derosaj, motcid!derosaj@uunet.uu.net          =
>= Applelink: N1111                                                         =
   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Therein lies the clue.

He's clearly got a Macintosh and is simply pleased as punch with himself.  I
don't know about others, but I'd rather not spend $10,000 to make John Scully
or whoever is in charge over at Apple rich.  I'd rather spend $2,000 on a nice
386 machine, splurge the $80 for windows and use the $8,000 to buy a car.

Besides, who wants to own a computer that wipes your butt for you, anyway?

Oops.  I flew off the handle.

Begin professional discussion:

I believe Macintoshes to be overpriced and though they are fine for some
people, I'd rather have the raw power of my IBM compatible that I can configure
any which way I want than be forced into doing things with (I can hardly bear
to type it) GUI.

+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
+ Adam Goldberg                         Bitnet:   tabu6@ISUVAX.BITNET        +
+ Iowa State University                 Internet: tabu6@CCVAX.IASTATE.EDU    +
+ H: (515) 233-5135
+          "It's simple!  Even a Pascal programmer could do it!"             +
+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

betsey@cunixd.cc.columbia.edu (Elizabeth Fike) (03/27/91)

In article <1991Mar27.030224.20622@news.iastate.edu> tabu6@CCVAX.IASTATE.EDU writes:
>In article <6078@crystal9.UUCP>, derosa@motcid.UUCP (John DeRosa) writes:
>>Subject: Re: Windows 3.0 & ATM 1.0 problem
>>Newsgroups: comp.windows.ms,comp.lang.postscript
>>
>	[ramblin's of a MacWeeny deleted (oops, there i go..)]
>>Can you guess the name of my computer system?  Remember 
>>that you are a computer professional, don't go off 
>>and start flaming, treat this as a professional discussion.
>>-- 
>>=       John DeRosa, Motorola, Inc, Cellular Infrastructure Group          =
>>= e-mail:    ...uunet!motcid!derosaj, motcid!derosaj@uunet.uu.net          =
>>= Applelink: N1111                                                         =
>   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Therein lies the clue.
>
>He's clearly got a Macintosh and is simply pleased as punch with himself.  I
>don't know about others, but I'd rather not spend $10,000 to make John Scully
>or whoever is in charge over at Apple rich.  I'd rather spend $2,000 on a nice
>386 machine, splurge the $80 for windows and use the $8,000 to buy a car.
>
>Besides, who wants to own a computer that wipes your butt for you, anyway?
>
>Oops.  I flew off the handle.
>
>Begin professional discussion:
>
>I believe Macintoshes to be overpriced and though they are fine for some
>people, I'd rather have the raw power of my IBM compatible that I can configure
>any which way I want than be forced into doing things with (I can hardly bear
>to type it) GUI.
>
>+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
>+ Adam Goldberg                         Bitnet:   tabu6@ISUVAX.BITNET        +
>+ Iowa State University                 Internet: tabu6@CCVAX.IASTATE.EDU    +
>+ H: (515) 233-5135
>+          "It's simple!  Even a Pascal programmer could do it!"             +
>+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
Amen to that, Adam!  I've been fighting with my MacFriends about
this for a long time...but you forgot to mention beautiful
*full-color* graphics for a mere *fraction* of the
MacPrice....:-)

/betsey


	Follow men's eyes as they look to the skies
	The shifting shafts of shining weave the fabric of their dreams...

mcgredo@prism.cs.orst.edu (Don McGregor) (03/27/91)

betsey@cunixd.cc.columbia.edu (Elizabeth Fike) writes:
>Amen to that, Adam!  I've been fighting with my MacFriends about
>this for a long time...but you forgot to mention beautiful
>*full-color* graphics for a mere *fraction* of the
>MacPrice....:-)
>
  It appears that Apple hasn't been advertising their new machines
  enough.  The PC-bigots still have some misconceptions about Mac
  prices.

  A Mac LC can be had for $2,000.  That includes a _color_ monitor
  that has onboard video support for 256 colors, 2 MB RAM, and a
  40 MB SCSI HD along with the keyboard.  Its rough analog in the
  PC world would be a 16 MhZ 386SX.  A Dell 316SX (to take a fairly
  reputable clone maker as an example) has 40 MB, VGA Color Plus 
  (16 colors at full 640 x 480 resolution) and 2 MB of RAM, all
  for $2,099 (March 4 PC week prices).

  You can save a couple hundred bucks by buying from Joe Blow's
  computers 'n' stuff if you feel lucky.

  The Mac come bundled with the System software, a mouse, and
  HyperCard (add $150 for PC-equivilent).  It has a built-in 
  SCSI port.  A complete computer-phobe can unbox it and get
  it running in under two hours.  It has simple built-in 
  networking that can connect small groups and share printers
  and files for under $30 per station.  The Mac software base
  is larger than the Windows software base.

  Is this mere *fraction* of a PC price greater than one or
  less than one? :-)

  For all their "Windows-is-just-as-good-as-Mac" rhetoric, the 
  PC folks are still being dragged kicking and screaming into
  the GUI world. They grump about using it, call into doubt
  the manhood/womanhood of anyone who does, and generally long
  for the good 'ol days when they could explain to a befuddled
  user the difference between COPY and XCOPY--don't forget, you
  need the /S switch for XCOPY to work on subdirectores.
  
Don McGregor             |"You can fall for chains of silver/You can fall for 
mcgredo@prism.cs.orst.edu| chains of gold/You can fall for pretty strangers/
			 | And the promises they hold..."

betsey@cunixf.cc.columbia.edu (Elizabeth Fike) (03/27/91)

In article <1991Mar27.091029.18566@lynx.CS.ORST.EDU> mcgredo@prism.CS.ORST.EDU (Don McGregor) writes:
>betsey@cunixd.cc.columbia.edu (Elizabeth Fike) writes:
>>Amen to that, Adam!  I've been fighting with my MacFriends about
>>this for a long time...but you forgot to mention beautiful
>>*full-color* graphics for a mere *fraction* of the
>>MacPrice....:-)
>>
>  It appears that Apple hasn't been advertising their new machines
>  enough.  The PC-bigots still have some misconceptions about Mac
>  prices.
>
	[MacDrivel deleted]
>Don McGregor             |"You can fall for chains of silver/You can fall for 
>mcgredo@prism.cs.orst.edu| chains of gold/You can fall for pretty strangers/
>			 | And the promises they hold..."

Look, Donnie, I admit that Macs have advantages over PC's for
*some* things.  They definitely have the GUI down pat, among
other things.  However, I still stand by my ALR 20386DT, and
will.  If I wanted to hear how wonderful Macs were, I would read
Macintosh newsgroups or talk to one of my MacUser friends.
However, I am here to read about the wonderful world of IBMs and
clones, so please keep your MacSh*t out of here.  Thanks.


/betsey
	Follow men's eyes as they look to the skies
	The shifting shafts of shining weave the fabric of their dreams...

phil@brahms.amd.com (Phil Ngai) (03/28/91)

mcgredo@prism.cs.orst.edu (Don McGregor) writes:
>  The Mac come bundled with the System software, a mouse, and

And what a shitty mouse it is, too!

>  For all their "Windows-is-just-as-good-as-Mac" rhetoric, the 
>  PC folks are still being dragged kicking and screaming into
>  the GUI world. They grump about using it, call into doubt
>  the manhood/womanhood of anyone who does, and generally long

Actually, I think the Mac has some really neat features to it.
Some of it is magic to me. How does the system know where to
get the application to run when you select a data file? It
seems you can move applications around and the data files
can still be launched!

--
US Supreme Court: confessions extracted under torture are admissible.

russotto@eng.umd.edu (Matthew T. Russotto) (03/28/91)

In article <1991Mar27.061608.23203@cunixf.cc.columbia.edu> betsey@cunixd.cc.columbia.edu (Elizabeth Fike) writes:

>Amen to that, Adam!  I've been fighting with my MacFriends about
>this for a long time...but you forgot to mention beautiful
>*full-color* graphics for a mere *fraction* of the
>MacPrice....:-)
>
>/betsey

probably an improper fraction.
--
Matthew T. Russotto	russotto@eng.umd.edu	russotto@wam.umd.edu
     .sig under construction, like the rest of this campus.

dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov (Dave Hayes) (03/28/91)

derosa@motcid.UUCP (John DeRosa) writes:

>I finally did the right thing and bought a different computer.

How much did it cost you, anyway? Bet my MSDOS machine is cheaper! 8)

>MicroSoft Windows is heading that way....but only if you
>have the updated programs....and the latest system...now
>that will mean how much money?....where do these files need
>to be?.....what was the name of that path?....christ, I
>misspelled it again...oh, and about the config.sys...or was
>it the exec.bat....or win.ini....hell, never mind......you need 
>to have a degree in CS to get a handle on this thing.....
>need a bigger hard drive....what type of controller is it?
>.....must partition it.....3-1/2", shit I need 5-1/4"...
>..THIS is the computer for the masses?.....rm *.*..
>....damn.....the file name is docsub12.txt....what was
>in that again?......8 characters only file names are
>a "pain in the butt"....

If you were having these kinds of troubles, it's good that you bought
a different machine! These machines are not for the computer incompetant.
(Who else would type rm *.* on a DOS machine?)

>Can you guess the name of my computer system?  

Gee..I could if you tell me how much slower it runs, how much
more you have to pay for disk storage, and how difficult it is
to get things like a MIDI port and/or modems installed for it.

Then I could guess.

>Remember that you are a computer professional, don't go off 
>and start flaming, treat this as a professional discussion.

Just as you did, no doubt.

-- 
Dave Hayes -  dave@elxr.jpl.nasa.gov - ames!elroy!dxh

You need not wonder whether you should have a reliable person as a friend. 
An unreliable person is nobody's friend.

dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov (Dave Hayes) (03/28/91)

mcgredo@prism.cs.orst.edu (Don McGregor) writes:
>  A Mac LC can be had for $2,000.  That includes a _color_ monitor
>  that has onboard video support for 256 colors, 2 MB RAM, and a
>  40 MB SCSI HD along with the keyboard.  Its rough analog in the
>  PC world would be a 16 MhZ 386SX.  A Dell 316SX (to take a fairly
>  reputable clone maker as an example) has 40 MB, VGA Color Plus 
>  (16 colors at full 640 x 480 resolution) and 2 MB of RAM, all
>  for $2,099 (March 4 PC week prices).

Gee...for that price I had a 386/33 with 128K cache, 8MB of memory,
110MB hard disk, a 2400 baud modem, 2 serial ports/1 parallel port,
and 1024x768x256 VGA.

I don't buy clones from Dell. I go direct to the clone suppliers. 
<big shit-eating grin>

>  For all their "Windows-is-just-as-good-as-Mac" rhetoric, the 
>  PC folks are still being dragged kicking and screaming into
>  the GUI world. 

With good reason. GUIs interfere with throughput for us real professionals.
I can do things at least 4 to 5 times faster without a GUI in the way.

>  They grump about using it, call into doubt
>  the manhood/womanhood of anyone who does, and generally long
>  for the good 'ol days when they could explain to a befuddled
>  user the difference between COPY and XCOPY--don't forget, you
>  need the /S switch for XCOPY to work on subdirectores.

Now wait...I don't recommend non-GUI for anyone but us pros. Let those
who want GUI have GUI...but why force those that don't want GUI to have
GUI?

Wouldn't that be like me forcing you to use an IBM? 8)

-- 
Dave Hayes -  dave@elxr.jpl.nasa.gov - ames!elroy!dxh

You need not wonder whether you should have a reliable person as a friend. 
An unreliable person is nobody's friend.

jess@gn.ecn.purdue.edu (Jess M Holle) (03/28/91)

In article <1991Mar27.200613.4423@jato.jpl.nasa.gov> dave@elxr.jpl.nasa.gov writes:
>
>If you were having these kinds of troubles, it's good that you bought
>a different machine! These machines are not for the computer incompetant.
>(Who else would type rm *.* on a DOS machine?)

After using MS-DOS, Mac, and UNIX machines for several years, I still made a
mistake similar to the one you mention. I cannot attribute it to my own
incompetency, but rather for a desire for speed and efficiency. You see, I
had just created numerous temporary files in a directory named JUNK right of
of the main directory on a DOS machine. Wanting to rid the drive of these now
unnecessary files with as little trouble as possible, I quickly typed cd JUNK
from the main directory and del *.*. The problem was, I am normally a decent
touch typist, so I was not watching the screen when I made the typo in the cd
command. Next thing I knew I had removed all the files off the main directory
of a 70Mb Hard Drive. The point being that on the Mac, I would have simply
dragged Junk (notice beautiful lowercase lettering) to the trash with NO
possibility for error.

>Gee..I could if you tell me how much slower it runs, how much
>
>Then I could guess.
>
>Dave Hayes -  dave@elxr.jpl.nasa.gov - ames!elroy!dxh

I assume that you have never attempted desktop publishing on a PC, or simple
AutoCAD illustrations (can you say FOREVER redraw on a 286), or... the list
goes on. There are numerous applications where the speed of a PC is far
inferior to the Mac, and these happen to be the same applications that I use
on a daily basis. For instance, compare Pagemaker on a 16Mhz 68030 Mac and
a 16Mhz 80386 PC, or for any medium level CAD/illustration program on the PC to
programs such as Claris CAD on the Mac. There are instances of applications
where the PC is faster as well, of course, but sweeping generalizations such
as the one you make above are ludicrous, especially when I have found my Mac
to be much faster for the above applications (not to mention other productivity
gains inherent in the Mac).

Jess Holle

blissmer@expert.cc.purdue.edu (Kevin) (03/28/91)

In article <1991Mar27.200613.4423@jato.jpl.nasa.gov> dave@elxr.jpl.nasa.gov writes:
>derosa@motcid.UUCP (John DeRosa) writes:
>
>Gee..I could if you tell me how much slower it runs, how much
>more you have to pay for disk storage, and how difficult it is
>to get things like a MIDI port and/or modems installed for it.
>^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Falicies MS/DOS users believe.

In the real world, disk storage is not more expensive, but cheaper.  If you
have a 40 meg on a mac and need another, buy it for $299 and hook it up.  If
you want to do the same on a DOS clone, check your hard drive controller, MFM
or RLL?, any open ports?, no?  Buy a new controller.  Reconfigure your BIOS
setup.  $299 seems pretty cheap, for plug and go.  $399 for 105 megs.  $499
for a removable 45.  No way can you add that to an existing DOS system for
that cheap unless your controller happens to be SCSI.

In the real world, a mac user opens the modem or midi box and plugs it in
(internal or external).  NO DIP SWITCHES.  I can't believe I'm hearing a DOS
user say that hardware add ons are easier than the mac.  And it's cheap, $99
for a modem and $79 for MIDI.

Mac's are easier AND cheaper.  Factor is real costs, like setup time, software
and OS maintainance differences and there is an even greater advantage to the
mac.

jess@gn.ecn.purdue.edu (Jess M Holle) (03/28/91)

In article <1991Mar27.201319.4604@jato.jpl.nasa.gov> dave@elxr.jpl.nasa.gov writes:
>
>With good reason. GUIs interfere with throughput for us real professionals.
>I can do things at least 4 to 5 times faster without a GUI in the way.
>

I'm sorry, but I don't buy the "real professionals use text interfaces"
argument. I have been using computers for years on a daily basis, and have
found that for the day to day needs of at least this user (and I do not
consider myself a computer nitwit) command line interfaces waste enormous
amounts of time. Granted, if your work consists of altering low level system
parameters all day long or something of that nature, a command line interface
has its advantages, but most computer users are not engaged in this type of
work. For quick incorporation of calculations, graphics, and text from as many
as 6 or 7 programs into a single document, the Mac interface allows a much
more seamless interface. Upon discovering the need for another analysis in a
report, the analysis program is but a click away. The results can then be
integrated into the report without any more effort than Copy, click, Paste. I
have yet to see anything in a non-GUI environment approach this efficiency.
DOS offer nothing that approaches this. UNIX allows process switching with
nearly equal ease, but still causes far more hassle when Copy and Paste type
procedures are called for.

Jess Holle

CXW148@psuvm.psu.edu (03/28/91)

     Previous to the token lowering of prices by Apple, it was figurd out by a
variety of people on the comp.sys.amiga.misc net that with hardware costs,
costs of labor and other production costs, that Apple was making approximately
a 50% profit on each machine sold.  With the intro of the Classic and LC, along
with price cuts (and weren't they just slashed to the bone :) that Apple now
only makes approximately a 40% profit on their machines.

     Then again, Apple needs to take its consumers for everything they have in
order to be able to pay for all those lawyers.  They wouldn't want to see their
monopolistic company start to fall apart as Windows 'stole' the _look and feel_
of their operating system:)

                       Chris Winward
                  userid CXW148 on psuvm.psu.edu

ap@deimos.caltech.edu (Alain Picard) (03/28/91)

In article <1991Mar27.221220.22757@gn.ecn.purdue.edu>, jess@gn.ecn.purdue.edu (Jess M Holle) writes...
>In article <1991Mar27.201319.4604@jato.jpl.nasa.gov> dave@elxr.jpl.nasa.gov writes:
>>
>>With good reason. GUIs interfere with throughput for us real professionals.
>>I can do things at least 4 to 5 times faster without a GUI in the way.
>>
> 
>I'm sorry, but I don't buy the "real professionals use text interfaces"
>argument. I have been using computers for years on a daily basis, 

So have I.

>and have
>found that for the day to day needs of at least this user (and I do not
>consider myself a computer nitwit) 

neither do I :-)

>command line interfaces waste enormous
>amounts of time. 

Rubbish.

 [wonderful stuff you can do with GUI's deleted...]

I use computers to analyze data, using my OWN programs (i.e.
not Microsoft Excel :-)

I can perform more operations in a tiny Cshell script than
you can in 100 mouse clicks (guaranteed!)

The bottom line is, different people have different needs,
and any overgeneralization is probably wrong.

					Cheers!  Alain Picard

p.s. This message was written on a computer without a GUI,
     and I daresay I was fairly efficient about it !   :-)

ts@uwasa.fi (Timo Salmi) (03/29/91)

In article <1991Mar27.171045.9721@amd.com> phil@brahms.amd.com (Phil Ngai) writes:
>mcgredo@prism.cs.orst.edu (Don McGregor) writes:
>>  The Mac come bundled with the System software, a mouse, and
>
>And what a shitty mouse it is, too!
>
>>  For all their "Windows-is-just-as-good-as-Mac" rhetoric, the 
:

Gentlemen:
   These discussions belong to alt.religion.computers.

...................................................................
Prof. Timo Salmi        
Moderating at garbo.uwasa.fi anonymous ftp archives 128.214.12.37
School of Business Studies, University of Vaasa, SF-65101, Finland
Internet: ts@chyde.uwasa.fi Funet: gado::salmi Bitnet: salmi@finfun

mark@misgate.wciu.EDU (Mark Patterson) (03/29/91)

 > mcgredo@prism.cs.orst.edu (Don McGregor) writes:
 > >  A Mac LC can be had for $2,000.  That includes a _color_ monitor
 > >  that has onboard video support for 256 colors, 2 MB RAM, and a
 > >  40 MB SCSI HD along with the keyboard.  Its rough analog in the
 > >  PC world would be a 16 MhZ 386SX.  A Dell 316SX (to take a fairly
 > >  reputable clone maker as an example) has 40 MB, VGA Color Plus
 > >  (16 colors at full 640 x 480 resolution) and 2 MB of RAM, all
 > >  for $2,099 (March 4 PC week prices).
 >
 > Gee...for that price I had a 386/33 with 128K cache,
 > 8MB of memory,
 > 110MB hard disk, a 2400 baud modem, 2 serial ports/1
 > parallel port,
 > and 1024x768x256 VGA.

Where did you find a price like that for so much hardware? 
I'd love to know your source, as I'm in the market for a 
similar system.

--  
Mark Patterson - via Global Mission Network node 12:2000/9
UUCP: {elroy|cit-vax}!wciu!misgate!mark
INTERNET: mark@misgate.wciu.EDU

bin@primate.wisc.edu (Brain in Neutral) (03/29/91)

From article <1991Mar28.173225.4282@amd.com>, by phil@brahms.amd.com (Phil Ngai):
> jess@gn.ecn.purdue.edu (Jess M Holle) writes:
>>on a daily basis. For instance, compare Pagemaker on a 16Mhz 68030 Mac and
>>a 16Mhz 80386 PC, or for any medium level CAD/illustration program on the PC to
> 
> You mean a 1-bit 512x340 display with an 4-bit 800x600 display?
> 
> Gee, I wonder why a tiny mac can redraw its screen so fast...

As you yourself have said in another context:  "read what was written".

Do you see anything above that rules out a non-512x340 screen or a color
display?

--
Paul DuBois
dubois@primate.wisc.edu

phil@brahms.amd.com (Phil Ngai) (03/29/91)

bin@primate.wisc.edu (Brain in Neutral) writes:

>From article <1991Mar28.173225.4282@amd.com>, by phil@brahms.amd.com (Phil Ngai):
>> jess@gn.ecn.purdue.edu (Jess M Holle) writes:
>>>on a daily basis. For instance, compare Pagemaker on a 16Mhz 68030 Mac and
>>>a 16Mhz 80386 PC, or for any medium level CAD/illustration program on the PC to
>> 
>> You mean a 1-bit 512x340 display vs a 4-bit 800x600 display?
>> 
>> Gee, I wonder why a tiny mac can redraw its screen so fast...

>As you yourself have said in another context:  "read what was written".

>Do you see anything above that rules out a non-512x340 screen or a color
>display?

Sure, we all know how common those color macs with big screens are.

--
Gun control is elitist.

tagreen@bronze.ucs.indiana.edu (Todd A. Green) (03/29/91)

In article <1991Mar28.235320.10269@amd.com> phil@brahms.amd.com (Phil Ngai) writes:
>bin@primate.wisc.edu (Brain in Neutral) writes:
>
>>From article <1991Mar28.173225.4282@amd.com>, by phil@brahms.amd.com (Phil Ngai):
>
>Sure, we all know how common those color macs with big screens are.
>
>--
>Gun control is elitist.

Well I happen to have a 13" 24-bit system at home and it works quite
well thank you.  We also have about a 4-1 ratio (200+ machines or so)
of color to non color Macs in our public clusters.  (Mainly IIci's,
with some IIsi's (all 8 bit) and for the 1bit machines SE's, with
IIfx's doing the serving..)

Todd
===============================================================================
Todd A. Green   "<_CyberWolf_>"  --> Pascal <- InterNet:
Unix Systems Administration      --> Unix <--- tagreen@bronze.ucs.indiana.edu
Macintosh Systems Administration --> VMS <---- tagreen@rose.ucs.indiana.edu 
WCC:136.04  Phone:(812) 855-0949 --> C <------ BitNet:
"This is the end, my only        --> Mac <---- tagreen@iubacs.BITNET
 friend, the end"                --> NeXT <--- NeXT Mail:
-Jim Morrison                    --> SunOS <-- tagreen@lothario.ucs.indiana.edu
===============================================================================

dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov (Dave Hayes) (03/29/91)

jess@gn.ecn.purdue.edu (Jess M Holle) writes:

>In article <1991Mar27.200613.4423@jato.jpl.nasa.gov> dave@elxr.jpl.nasa.gov writes:
>>
>>If you were having these kinds of troubles, it's good that you bought
>>a different machine! These machines are not for the computer incompetant.
>>(Who else would type rm *.* on a DOS machine?)

>of a 70Mb Hard Drive. The point being that on the Mac, I would have simply
>dragged Junk (notice beautiful lowercase lettering) to the trash with NO
>possibility for error.

Interesting. Perhaps you could have missed the trash can and had to redo
the stroke?

In my years of using UNIX and DOS, I have never ever typed del *.* or rm -r *
lightly...not once have I made a mistake of this caliber. I guess I could
never understand someone else making such a mistake.

>>Gee..I could if you tell me how much slower it runs, how much

>AutoCAD illustrations (can you say FOREVER redraw on a 286), or... the list
>goes on. There are numerous applications where the speed of a PC is far
>inferior to the Mac, and these happen to be the same applications that I use

I see. Most of my comparisons are a 386/25 to a Mac SE. Think about it.

>where the PC is faster as well, of course, but sweeping generalizations such
>as the one you make above are ludicrous, especially when I have found my Mac
>to be much faster for the above applications (not to mention other productivity
>gains inherent in the Mac).

Again, I haven't your experience with applications. My experience is directly with
music apps...Finale 2.0 is at least 3 times slower on Mac.

However, you can have that the Mac's are far superior to PCs. Go ahead...I'll
shut up and take my obviously incorrect opinions away...and get back to computing
on my inferior machine. 
-- 
Dave Hayes -  dave@elxr.jpl.nasa.gov - ames!elroy!dxh

People who think they know all are often insufferable.
Rather like those who imagine that they know nothing.

dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov (Dave Hayes) (03/29/91)

blissmer@expert.cc.purdue.edu (Kevin) writes:

>In article <1991Mar27.200613.4423@jato.jpl.nasa.gov> dave@elxr.jpl.nasa.gov writes:
>>derosa@motcid.UUCP (John DeRosa) writes:
>>
>>Gee..I could if you tell me how much slower it runs, how much
>>more you have to pay for disk storage, and how difficult it is
>>to get things like a MIDI port and/or modems installed for it.
>>^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>Falicies MS/DOS users believe.

>In the real world, disk storage is not more expensive, but cheaper.  If you
>have a 40 meg on a mac and need another, buy it for $299 and hook it up.  

Costs $200 for 40 meg out here (MFM). $300 gets you 80 meg. 

>you want to do the same on a DOS clone, check your hard drive controller, MFM
>or RLL?, any open ports?, no?  Buy a new controller.  Reconfigure your BIOS
>setup.  $299 seems pretty cheap, for plug and go.  $399 for 105 megs.  $499
>for a removable 45.  No way can you add that to an existing DOS system for
>that cheap unless your controller happens to be SCSI.

Why, when I can get an ESDI 330MB disk for $750? <big shit eating grin>

Seriously, you can't beat my prices. I know how to hook these things up,
I've hooked up a LOT of them, and I buy wholesale. I have it on good
authority (VERY many people say this) that Mac  prices are not as cheap as
you are saying. You are the first person that I've heard quote these prices...
would you please tell me WHERE you are getting those prices so I can inform
the friends of mine that are unlucky...I mean fortunate enough to have Macs
where to get these extremely low deals?

>In the real world, a mac user opens the modem or midi box and plugs it in
>(internal or external).  NO DIP SWITCHES.  I can't believe I'm hearing a DOS
>user say that hardware add ons are easier than the mac.  And it's cheap, $99
>for a modem and $79 for MIDI.

$50 bucks for modem AND midi for PCs. 8)

Please believe me...it's easier. Not from some need to fight about machine
superiority but from experience...I've seen Mac MIDI add-ons take months.
Damn near every complaint I get from Mac users is the difficulty of
adding hardware and/or the comparative cost of Mac addons. These folks 
lose it when I tell them how much PC periphs cost! 

>Mac's are easier AND cheaper.  Factor is real costs, like setup time, software
>and OS maintainance differences and there is an even greater advantage to the
>mac.

Ok...Ok...I get that you think Macs are the best thing since sliced bread. I give
you your opinion, and I'll stop arguing about it...I'll just keep on using my 
inferior and expensive machine to write my music and dream of the day when I
can justify the expense of switching to the Mac so I can see the one true way.

Us artists are downtrodden anyway, right? 8)

-- 
Dave Hayes -  dave@elxr.jpl.nasa.gov - ames!elroy!dxh

People who think they know all are often insufferable.
Rather like those who imagine that they know nothing.

jess@gn.ecn.purdue.edu (Jess M Holle) (03/29/91)

In article <1991Mar28.235320.10269@amd.com> phil@brahms.amd.com (Phil Ngai) writes:
>>From article <1991Mar28.173225.4282@amd.com>, by phil@brahms.amd.com (Phil Ngai):
>>> jess@gn.ecn.purdue.edu (Jess M Holle) writes:
>>>>on a daily basis. For instance, compare Pagemaker on a 16Mhz 68030 Mac and
>>>>a 16Mhz 80386 PC, or for any medium level CAD/illustration program on the PC to
>>> 
>>> You mean a 1-bit 512x340 display vs a 4-bit 800x600 display?
>>> 
>>> Gee, I wonder why a tiny mac can redraw its screen so fast...
>
>>As you yourself have said in another context:  "read what was written".
>
>>Do you see anything above that rules out a non-512x340 screen or a color
>>display?
>
>Sure, we all know how common those color macs with big screens are.

Actually, the systems that I was comparing in my original post were a 13"
Mac II screen in 8-bit mode vs. a PC with the same size of screen with a
lower resolution and in a lower bit mode.

Jess Holle

jyp@wucs1.wustl.edu (Jerome Yvon Plun) (03/29/91)

In article <1991Mar29.015546.24193@jato.jpl.nasa.gov> dave@elxr.jpl.nasa.gov writes:
[things not related deleted]
>>>Gee..I could if you tell me how much slower it runs, how much
>
>>AutoCAD illustrations (can you say FOREVER redraw on a 286), or... the list
>>goes on. There are numerous applications where the speed of a PC is far
>>inferior to the Mac, and these happen to be the same applications that I use
>
>I see. Most of my comparisons are a 386/25 to a Mac SE. Think about it.

Well, as a Mac user, I am very proud to find out that you need to compare
a PC with a 386 running at 25Mhz with a poor little SE having only a mere 6800
at 16MHz.

Before I start getting hardware characteristics and other not very useful 
details if you are not playing with the raw hardware (give me a 500MHz 68070
without a computer around it and some software to use the beast and I will have
a very fast paper holder :-), let me tell you that I really don't care about the
fact that application X works slower on machine Y than machine Z.  In fact:

1) I can buy a faster machine Z,
2) I can buy a different program that will have an inverse speed ratio,
3) A program contains more than one feature usually.  Being slower for one
doesn't imply to be slower for all.  Can anybody dare to tell me that
MS-DOS, Windows or OS/2 are _ALWAYS_ faster/slower (pick your favorite) than 
MacOS/Unix/Xenix/VMS/... 
4) Speed is not the only characteristic of a program (a car can be a lot faster
if it only has 4 tires, an engine and a steering wheel.  You might beat
everybody else but you might have some trouble in winter!).  Similarly, would
you prefer a compiler that spits out poor code very fast or a compiler that
takes much longer but generates optimized code.  You won't waste time waiting
for your code but you might waste that time using the code later on.  I would
like both compilers, the fast to write run-once test routines and debugging,
the slow to produce the final code.  


To finish, let me come back to this general trend of considering a particular 
machine has being above the others.  Each religion tries the same approach and
milleniums of religious behavior with respect to the others didn't (and are 
still not) leave much nice and pleasant things. Constructive and instructive
informations are more interesting than "I know your computer stinks".
If some Cray user were to show up and state that PCs are useless because they
compute weather maps or fluid dynamics so slowly, everybody would "beat" on
her/him.  If the same user states that PCs are useless for supercomputing,
most of us would agree but we might start looking at what computational
intensive tasks a PC and a Cray can both attack.  In one case, religious wars, 
in the other mutual exchange of information.  Being an engineer, I would rather
see the latter taking over the former.  Just my 2 cents worth.

Jerome



Jerome Plun	jyp@wucs1.wustl.edu       // Tell me why is it so hard to say
Dept of Computer Science                  // Brother don't you walk away
Washington University                     //
St. Louis, Mo                             // Hooters     "Zig Zag"

ogawa@orion.arc.nasa.gov (Arthur Ogawa) (03/29/91)

In article <1991Mar27.200613.4423@jato.jpl.nasa.gov> dave@elxr.jpl.nasa.gov writes:
|derosa@motcid.UUCP (John DeRosa) writes:
|>I finally did the right thing and bought a different computer.
|If you were having these kinds of troubles, it's good that you bought
|a different machine! These machines are not for the computer incompetant.
|(Who else would type rm *.* on a DOS machine?)

Hey, I've used both. And I've seen some very competent people on DOS
machines really do rm *.*. I also saw somebody do rm -r * on a Unix
machine (really!).  These things happen. It's just that only arrogant
guys like me and you ;-) take others to task for making such errors.

|>Can you guess the name of my computer system?  
|
|Gee..I could if you tell me how much slower it runs, how much
|more you have to pay for disk storage, and how difficult it is
|to get things like a MIDI port and/or modems installed for it.

Look, I hate to imply that you're clueless, Dave, but anybody who
follows prices of Mac, DOS, Unix systems nowadays knows that Mac third
party stuff is at a par with DOS, sometimes significantly better
prices. Also my friends who run in a mixed Mac/DOS shop report that
the Macs are much faster than comparable DOS machines. Their
perceptions are their own, I know, but not out of line with
comparisons I've seen in the trade mags.

I have a buddy who bought an IBM PS/2 model 70 awhile back.  Ran it
for the longest time in base configuration. Then he was really
chagrined when he found out how much he had to lay out for a (bigger)
hard disk, because it had to be compatible with IBM's MCA controller.
Also, he's still messing around with applications written with
PharLap's extender and something like 2Mb of (real) memory.

Meanwhile, I just got a price on a Fujitsu 15ms X 4.8Mb/s, 1.2Gb drive: 
$2800. And thanks to my PMMU and a $100 piece of software, I'm 
running with 14Mb of virtual memory. Sorry, guys, but I no longer
consider the DOS-type computer to be the platform of choice for this
power user. Oh, yes, Ethernet card (10Base T) for $200.

Also, my accountant drives around with a 150Mb SCSI drive and just 
plugs in the Macs here in the office. She's no hacker and yet has no
trouble. You can't do that with your standard AT/EISA box: where
you going to plug it in? The Centronics port?

Oh, look. This thing is cross-posted to comp.sys.ibm.pc.misc. No
wonder so many DOS respondents to this thread. Alright, then, please
fellow flamers, accept this challenge: state how much experience/money
you've spent on DOS/Mac systems when you post. Let those who have
their feet in both camps relate their experiences, and let the bigots
confess themselves for what they are: uninformed.

Arthur Ogawa        Internet: ogawa@orion.arc.nasa.gov  Ph: 1/415/691-1126
TeX consultant      AppleLink: ogawa                    FAX:1/415/962-1969

cs442a07@cs.iastate.edu (Sunny G) (03/29/91)

jyp@wucs1.wustl.edu (Jerome Yvon Plun) writes:

>In article <1991Mar29.015546.24193@jato.jpl.nasa.gov> dave@elxr.jpl.nasa.gov writes:

>To finish, let me come back to this general trend of considering a particular 
>machine has being above the others.  Each religion tries the same approach and

Agree, I do.

I don't have very strong opinions about most things.  But this I do know.  My
ideal set up would be:  Have both a Mac & a PC.  Use the Mac for the most 
excellent Word Processing Capabilities.  Use the PC for writing all those 
hundreds of little programs I think up of.  Try and write software which 
better enables the user of a Ibm to import Mac stuff and vice-versa.  

I know that the Mac interface is a lot easier to use.  On the other hand, 
sometimes its so much easier to do stuff in a shell script.  

Each computer has its own strong points.  I would like to own both, but 
pricewise, the Ibm is what I have to settle for, thanx to those good old 
tuition blues. 

Of course, we could always bring in the Amiga, with its IBM/Mac/* emulators
and the excellent games (and apparently some good hardware... I wouldnt know,
the only Amiga experience I have is 3rd hand) 

Now what was I trying to say?  I dunno.  

Sunjeev "Sunny" Gulati
cs442a07@zippy.cs.iastate.edu
the perpetually confused motion machine.

dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov (Dave Hayes) (03/30/91)

ogawa@orion.arc.nasa.gov (Arthur Ogawa) writes:

>Hey, I've used both. And I've seen some very competent people on DOS
>machines really do rm *.*. I also saw somebody do rm -r * on a Unix
>machine (really!).  These things happen. It's just that only arrogant
>guys like me and you ;-) take others to task for making such errors.

Hey, *I* didn't bring this error up, did I? I was merely stating that
the possibility of making a mistake is a poor foundation to build
upon when judging OS systems.

The judgement of which, by the way, has gotten out of hand.

Publicly I say: I USE THE *WORST* OS SYSTEMS AND PLATFORMS THAT
THERE COULD EVER POSSIBLY BE.

There. Now we can all stop. Including me. 8)

>Look, I hate to imply that you're clueless, Dave, but anybody who

Then don't...OK?

>follows prices of Mac, DOS, Unix systems nowadays knows that Mac third
>party stuff is at a par with DOS, sometimes significantly better
>prices. 

Like I said...please tell me where this information about pricing 
can be had. I have MacFreinds that would LOVE to know this!!!

Right now, the best buy for the money is a 486. I imagine in about
a year that will change to SPARC clones. This is *my* experience 
only...your mileage may vary.



-- 
Dave Hayes -  dave@elxr.jpl.nasa.gov - ames!elroy!dxh

If your own vice happens to be the search for virtue,
                                  recognize that it is so.

jim@crom2.uucp (James P. H. Fuller) (03/30/91)

ogawa@orion.arc.nasa.gov (Arthur Ogawa) writes:

> Oh, look. This thing is cross-posted to comp.sys.ibm.pc.misc. No
> wonder so many DOS respondents to this thread. Alright, then, please
> fellow flamers, accept this challenge: state how much experience/money
> you've spent on DOS/Mac systems when you post. Let those who have
> their feet in both camps relate their experiences, and let the bigots
> confess themselves for what they are: uninformed.

     Ghod what a bore it is listening to people flame about "My brand is
super, your brand is sh*t."  It's no different from listening to rednecks
argue about Ford trucks vs. Chevy trucks.  (Not a reflection on ogawa@orion,
I thought your post was quite rational....)  Any given machine will do some
tasks better and some worse than another machine with a different design
philosophy.  I don't happen to have a Mac but if Santa Clause brought me
one I sure wouldn't throw it away.  I do still use and enjoy Apple products,
though not Macs.  (My ancient and venerable Apple II is presently tied to a
Unix box via serial cable and Kermit, and is the first Apple II in the Known
Universe to achieve Dhrystone 20000....)  I wouldn't at this point buy any-
thing else from Apple due to being mad about their damned look-and-feel
lawsuits, but that's an argument with their company policies, not a gripe
about their products.

     To accept your challenge, I have about $9000 tied up in crom2 (see the
.sig below for system configuration.)  I bought this stuff last spring and
the same system could be had now for 2/3 what I paid, or less -- but then
if I'd waited for prices to fall I'd now be a beginner at *nix instead of
having a year's bloody-fingered climbing up the learning curve already
behind me.  In my particular case it was worth it, but certainly other
people might feel differently.

     If it matters, I chose a 486-based box instead of a Mac a) because at
that time it was possible to build an IBM-clone without using any IBM-brand
parts but not possible to build a Mac-clone/Hackintosh without using Apple-
brand parts (I understand this may be changing; if so, good) and b) because
generic Unix was available for 486s but not for Macs (I wanted to run Unix,
not something called AIX or A/UX.)  Note that neither of these points has
anything to do with the quality or functionality of Macs as computers.

     Finally, the computer I want NEXT isn't either a Mac *or* a PC.
LORDY how I hope the SPARCstation clones are a success!  THAT'S what I want
next, bro!

P.S.  One thing I wonder is, how many people who post to comp.sys.mac.misc
are posting FROM MACS, and how many who post to comp.sys.ibm.pc.misc are
posting FROM PC's.  (I'm posting this from crom2.)

---------------------------------- -----------------------------------------
 crom2 Athens Public Access Unix  |  i486 AT, 16 mg RAM, 600 mg online
                                  |  AT&T Unix System V release 3.2
 Molecular Biology                |  Tbit PEP 19200bps - V.32 - V.42/V.42bis
 Population Biology               |     
 Ecological Modelling             |  Admin: James P. H. Fuller
 Bionet/Usenet/cnews/nn           |  {jim,root}%crom2@nstar.rn.com
---------------------------------- -----------------------------------------

wadew@ducvax.auburn.edu (WILLIAMS_WADE) (03/30/91)

In article <1991Mar30.021300.3899@crom2.uucp>, jim@crom2.uucp (James P. H. Fuller) writes...
> 
>Universe to achieve Dhrystone 20000....)  I wouldn't at this point buy any-
>thing else from Apple due to being mad about their damned look-and-feel
>lawsuits, but that's an argument with their company policies, not a gripe
>about their products.


Why are you mad about Apple's look and feel lawsuit?  It's just trying to 
protect that which sets Macintosh apart (and to many, makes it better).

Face it, Windows never would have come to pass if Microsoft wasn't trying to 
pull Mac users to MS-DOS.  With the huge percentage of computer users that use 
MS-DOS (Mac users would say out of ignorance) Microsoft would have done just 
fine with MS-DOS had the Mac not created a need for Windows.  I don't think 
Microsoft would have been worried about bringing MS-DOS users a more productive 
way of computing, it would have just been interested in maintianing its profits.
Of course, if the roles were reversed, Microsoft would have done the same exact 
thing.  Any major corporation would.

As for your comment about "I wanted to run Unix, not something called A/Ux," to 
my knowledge A/Ux IS standard Unix with a few enhancements.  I don't think 
there's any more difference in A/Ux and Unix than you would find between Unix on 
an MS-DOS and a Sun.

Wade

mroussel@alchemy.chem.utoronto.ca (Marc Roussel) (03/30/91)

In article <91MAR30.004457@ducvax.auburn.edu> wadew@ducvax.auburn.edu writes:
>As for your comment about "I wanted to run Unix, not something called A/Ux," to
>my knowledge A/Ux IS standard Unix with a few enhancements.  I don't think 
>there's any more difference in A/Ux and Unix than you would find between Unix
>on an MS-DOS and a Sun.

The deplorable experience that our department has had is that not every
Unix is alike.  Hybrids like A/Ux and AIX (and, our favorite, Domain/OS)
are trouble, unless you don't care about spending half your life porting
software and then still having trouble because Unix itself wasn't ported/cloned
properly in the first place.

				Marc R. Roussel
                                mroussel@alchemy.chem.utoronto.ca

mcdonald@aries.scs.uiuc.edu (Doug McDonald) (03/30/91)

In article <1991Mar30.021300.3899@crom2.uucp> jim@crom2.uucp (James P. H. Fuller) writes:
>
>P.S.  One thing I wonder is, how many people who post to comp.sys.mac.misc
>are posting FROM MACS, and how many who post to comp.sys.ibm.pc.misc are
>posting FROM PC's.  (I'm posting this from crom2.)
>


I am posting this from my PC clone (Dell 310) running MS-DOS and Microsoft
Windows 3.0, using my News program Snuz. Othe programs are actually
running in other windows.


Doug McDonald

plim@hpsgwp.sgp.hp.com (Peter Lim) (04/01/91)

Well ! There's been quite a few people claiming that Mac is cheaper
than a PC and vice versa. Why don't we make this more beneficial to
the net ? How about posting the lowest Mac/PC price you know ......
remember to include the source, exact configuration (ie. disk space,
RAM size, display type), and any special discount consideration.

Then, those who want to buy whichever machine can know a real good
price and go for it.


-----> On a different note ......

If you want fire breathing power ..... and is not afraid of UNIX ;-)
..... why don't you take a look at the newly announced HP-9000 series 700 ?
57 MIPS at under $12K and 76 MIPS at under $20K list price, just as my
.signature says. Of course, my opinion is solely my own and in no way 
represent my employer. I am just saying the above because I am absolutely 
impressed with the raw power of these new machines.

ps: A SUN SpareStation II clocked in at 28 MIPS.


Regards,     ___o``\________________________________________________ ___ __ _ _
Peter Lim.   V````\  @ @ . .. ... .- -> 76 MIPS at under US$20K !!   --- -- - -
                  /.------------------------------------------------ === == = =
             >--_//      . .. ... .- -> 57 MIPS at under US$12K !!
                `'       . If you guessed SUN, IBM or DEC, your are wrong !

E-mail:  plim@hpsgwg.HP.COM     Snail-mail:  Hewlett Packard Singapore,
Tel:     (065)-279-2289                      (ICDS, ICS)
Telnet:        520-2289                      1150 Depot Road,
                                             Singapore   0410.

#include <standard_disclaimer.hpp>

rhys@cs.uq.oz.au (Rhys Weatherley) (04/01/91)

In <1991Mar29.042136.8302@cec1.wustl.edu> jyp@wucs1.wustl.edu (Jerome Yvon Plun) writes:

>Well, as a Mac user, I am very proud to find out that you need to compare
>a PC with a 386 running at 25Mhz with a poor little SE having only a mere 6800
									   ^^^^
>at 16MHz.

WOW!!  Motorola must really be souping up the old 8-bit 6800 chip!!  Now they
can power Mac SE's at 16MHz and still beat the crap out of 386/25's!!  When
can I get one!!  I wonder how it stands up against my 386/33??

Sorry, I couldn't resist coming back at your missing zero. :-)

Rhys.

P.S. Flaming someone else's machine is simply childish.  Each machine is good
     at some particular application, and horrible on others.  Try generating
     arithmetic progressions of primes on anything less than a network of
     Suns and you can get ready for a LONG WAIT!!

+=====================+==================================+
||  Rhys Weatherley   |  The University of Queensland,  ||
||  rhys@cs.uq.oz.au  |  Australia.  G'day!!            ||
+=====================+==================================+

mcdonald@aries.scs.uiuc.edu (Doug McDonald) (04/02/91)

In article <3360017@hpsgwp.sgp.hp.com> plim@hpsgwp.sgp.hp.com (Peter Lim) writes:
>Well ! There's been quite a few people claiming that Mac is cheaper
>than a PC and vice versa. Why don't we make this more beneficial to
>the net ? How about posting the lowest Mac/PC price you know ......
>remember to include the source, exact configuration (ie. disk space,
>RAM size, display type), and any special discount consideration.
>
>Then, those who want to buy whichever machine can know a real good
>price and go for it.
>
>
>-----> On a different note ......
>
>If you want fire breathing power ..... and is not afraid of UNIX ;-)
>...... why don't you take a look at the newly announced HP-9000 series 700 ?
>57 MIPS at under $12K and 76 MIPS at under $20K list price, just as my
>..signature says. Of course, my opinion is solely my own and in no way 
>represent my employer. I am just saying the above because I am absolutely 
>impressed with the raw power of these new machines.
>


Certainly. I'd LOVE to look at such a machine. We **DO** assume of course
that for that price you get a WHOLE COMPUTER. That is, for a Unix box,


CPU
16 megabytes of memory
at least 600 megabytes of disk
1024x1024 graphics, 256 colors, including monitor
Additional memory costs no more than $100 per megabyte.
Additional 600 megabyte disks no more than $2000.


You wouldn't be trying to purvey stripper models for that price, would you???
Really???


Doug McDonald

phil@brahms.amd.com (Phil Ngai) (04/02/91)

I wonder if Berkeley will ever do a port of BSD to the Mac,
like they are doing for the 386.

--
72 DPI sucks.

vick-paul@CS.YALE.EDU (Paul A. Vick) (04/02/91)

In article <cs442a07.670237940@zippy> cs442a07@cs.iastate.edu (Sunny G) writes:
   Use the Mac for the most excellent Word Processing Capabilities.

     Not to enter too deeply into this religious debate here, but...
:-) Just a bit of a product plug -- I've actually found that
Microsoft's Word for Windows is an excellent product that makes word
processing as easy (if not easier) than using, say, Microsoft Word for
Mac. I also like the Windows interface more than Macintosh, but that's
only because I don't have the bucks to latch on to a color Mac.
     Anyway, summary: I take no position on the Mac/IBM "nyah nyah
nyah, my computer is better than yours" debate. I do, however, posit
that Word for Windows is an excellent product and is as easy and nice
to use as another popular Microsoft product, Word for Mac. This does
not, of course, override or mitigate the other factors in the debate
currently underway...

-- 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Paul Vick                  | "Stands to reason? What a silly expression. Why
Internet: vick@cs.yale.edu | not 'lies down to reason'? Much easier to reason
Bitnet: VICPAUA@YALEVM     | lying down..." - Tom Baker

blaise@kira.UUCP (Christopher Blaise) (04/02/91)

From article <8890@mentor.cc.purdue.edu>, by blissmer@expert.cc.purdue.edu (Kevin):
> In article <1991Mar27.200613.4423@jato.jpl.nasa.gov> dave@elxr.jpl.nasa.gov writes:
>>derosa@motcid.UUCP (John DeRosa) writes:
>>
>>Gee..I could if you tell me how much slower it runs, how much
>>more you have to pay for disk storage, and how difficult it is
>>to get things like a MIDI port and/or modems installed for it.
>>^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> Falicies MS/DOS users believe.
> 
> In the real world, disk storage is not more expensive, but cheaper.  If you
> have a 40 meg on a mac and need another, buy it for $299 and hook it up.  If
> you want to do the same on a DOS clone, check your hard drive controller, MFM
> or RLL?, any open ports?, no?  Buy a new controller.  Reconfigure your BIOS
> setup.  $299 seems pretty cheap, for plug and go.  $399 for 105 megs.  $499
> for a removable 45.  No way can you add that to an existing DOS system for
> that cheap unless your controller happens to be SCSI.
> 
> In the real world, a mac user opens the modem or midi box and plugs it in
> (internal or external).  NO DIP SWITCHES.  I can't believe I'm hearing a DOS
> user say that hardware add ons are easier than the mac.  And it's cheap, $99
> for a modem and $79 for MIDI.
> 
> Mac's are easier AND cheaper.  Factor is real costs, like setup time, software
> and OS maintainance differences and there is an even greater advantage to the
> mac.

	Cheaper, eh?  Easier, eh?  Ever try to take one apart without a manual
or someone right beside you telling you TO BE CAREFUL, NOT TO TOUCH
the screen on an SE, plus, etc., to install some more memory?

	Thats assuming, of course, that you know what you're doing or have some
one nearby who does.  LEt alone finding a screwdriver to get the (nonstandard)
screws out, where are you going to get a case cracker?  No where unless 
you've kissed up to Apple, paid to take their Tech course and the manuals
AND the equipment...

	$99 for a modem?  I got a 2400 baud internal for $79.  My mother's
Macintosh blew an analog card.  I knew what the problem was, but WHERE
could I find a place to purchse the parts?  Computer Shopper sure didn't
list any Apple parts dealer.  For a $39 board (their price) ,it cost
my mother $399 to have some apple techs fix her SE when I could have
jyst bought the part for her, and done it myself (thanks to the
Mac guru at the school)...

	But to be fair, it IS extremely easy to alter BIOS.  There isn't much
to alter, but it sure is easy to alter :)

 --------------------------------------------------------------------------
 "Guy -- What are you doing?!"
 "I'm gonna MURDER those two for what they did t'me tonight --
  THAT'S what I'm doin'!!"

plim@hpsgwp.sgp.hp.com (Peter Lim) (04/02/91)

/ mcdonald@aries.scs.uiuc.edu (Doug McDonald) / 12:12 am  Apr  2, 1991 / writes:

> Certainly. I'd LOVE to look at such a machine. We **DO** assume of course
> that for that price you get a WHOLE COMPUTER. That is, for a Unix box,
> 
> 
> CPU
> 16 megabytes of memory
> at least 600 megabytes of disk
> 1024x1024 graphics, 256 colors, including monitor
> Additional memory costs no more than $100 per megabyte.
> Additional 600 megabyte disks no more than $2000.
> 
Okay .... let me copy some info from the brochure .... This is for the
57 MIPS at under US$12K model. Before I begin, lets say that this is
not official and you'll have to see HP Sales for the exact details.
AND ... I AM NOT A SALESMAN ! HECK, I AM AN IC DESIGNER !


CPU .... definitely  :-).
	[ 55.5 SPECmarks, 17 MFLOPS, 50 MHz clock speed ]
	[ 128Kbytes instruction cache size, 256Kbytes data cache size ]
16 MB ECC memory (standard) .... expandable to 64 MB.
	[ 80 nsec, 4 Mbit DRAM ]
10 Mbits/sec Ethernet LAN interface (standard).
SCSI-II single ended 8 bit (standard).
Parallel and Serial port (standard).
EISA bus 1 (optional).
19 inch Mono (GRX) 1280x1024 monitor and graphics engine (standard).
	[ 256 levels of grayscale, 1280x1024 resolution, 72Hz monitor ]
Mouse, keyboard, nice casing and speaker of course  :-).
SCSI-II hard disk 210 MB (standard ???)
	[ this is where things get a bit gray. I am under the impression
	  that it comes with a hard disk. The brochure talks about all
	  kinds of disk configuration --- 210 MB is the smallest of them
	  all, so I presume that is the standard. I could be wrong. ]

** I could have left out something. Like I say above, call the proper
   channel for more accurate information. Besides, I don't want to
   accused of advertising  ;-).  .... I just want to pass this info on
   because I really believe this is a great line of machines.

Have fun.



Regards,     ___o``\________________________________________________ ___ __ _ _
Peter Lim.   V````\  @ @ . .. ... .- -> 76 MIPS at under US$20K !!   --- -- - -
                  /.------------------------------------------------ === == = =
             >--_//      . .. ... .- -> 57 MIPS at under US$12K !!
                `'       . If you guessed SUN, IBM or DEC, your are wrong !

E-mail:  plim@hpsgwg.HP.COM     Snail-mail:  Hewlett Packard Singapore,
Tel:     (065)-279-2289                      (ICDS, ICS)
Telnet:        520-2289                      1150 Depot Road,
                                             Singapore   0410.

#include <standard_disclaimer.hpp>

ntaib@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Nur Iskandar Taib) (04/04/91)

>>Well, as a Mac user, I am very proud to find out that you need to compare
>>a PC with a 386 running at 25Mhz with a poor little SE having only a mere 6800
>									   ^^^^
>>at 16MHz.


I think the intended comparison was price, not performance. Not
too valid, anymore.. Mac Classics go for less than $800 (academic 
pricing, 40% discount, no HD). Still, your plain vanilla SE/30 
with 4 MByte ram and 80 Meg HD costs $2500, again at 40% student
discount. But you're still stuck with the infamous porthole, and 
if you're not a student, or have bought your lifetime allocation 
of _ONE_ mac then you'll have to pay another 40% (actually, 66%
more than the discount price). You could get a clone with 33 MHz 
386 cpu, with cache, 120MByte Connor, SuperVGA,4 Megs and Windows 
for a little less.


--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Iskandar Taib                        | The only thing worse than Peach ala
Internet: NTAIB@AQUA.UCS.INDIANA.EDU |    Frog is Frog ala Peach
Bitnet:   NTAIB@IUBACS               !
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

alan@ukpoit.co.uk (Alan Barclay) (04/04/91)

In article <1991Mar27.215516.20770@gn.ecn.purdue.edu> jess@gn.ecn.purdue.edu (Jess M Holle) writes:
>
>of the main directory on a DOS machine. Wanting to rid the drive of these now
>unnecessary files with as little trouble as possible, I quickly typed cd JUNK
>from the main directory and del *.*. The problem was, I am normally a decent
>touch typist, so I was not watching the screen when I made the typo in the cd
>command. Next thing I knew I had removed all the files off the main directory
>of a 70Mb Hard Drive. The point being that on the Mac, I would have simply
>dragged Junk (notice beautiful lowercase lettering) to the trash with NO
>possibility for error.

So the computer said Are you sure (Y/N) and you typed Y without checking, 
yes that's obviously the computers fault. And as for the complaint about 
the case, if you really care I've got the source for a program which gives
the same functionality of the unix command ls but gives lower case filenames.
When the computer doesn't care about the case you can display it in either.

jwbirdsa@amc.com (James Birdsall) (04/05/91)

In article <91MAR30.004457@ducvax.auburn.edu> wadew@ducvax.auburn.edu writes:
>As for your comment about "I wanted to run Unix, not something called A/Ux," to 
>my knowledge A/Ux IS standard Unix with a few enhancements.  I don't think 
>there's any more difference in A/Ux and Unix than you would find between Unix on 
>an MS-DOS and a Sun.

*cough* *choke* *hack*

   SunOS is BSD-based. All flavors of Unix for the IBM architecture that
I am aware of are System V-based, except for the very recent port of BSD
itself. BSD and SysV are NOT the same; they are gradually merging, but
there are still major differences between the installed base of the BSD
and SysV camps.

   There have also been numerous reports that Unixes with major proprietary
extensions (such as A/UX, although I am not sure than any of the reports
have been about A/UX specifically) have peculiar problems, including the
possibility of being incompatible with *both* BSD and SysV source without
major changes.

   Not all Unixes are created equal.

-- 
James W. Birdsall   WORK: jwbirdsa@amc.com   {uunet,uw-coco}!amc-gw!jwbirdsa
HOME: {uunet,uw-coco}!amc-gw!picarefy!jwbirdsa OTHER: 71261.1731@compuserve.com
================== Kitten: a small homicidal muffin on legs. ==================
=========== "For it is the doom of men that they forget." -- Merlin ===========