[comp.sys.ibm.pc.misc] Damn WordPerfect and HELP !!!

smbrush@lims01.lerc.nasa.gov (ANDREW BRUSH) (06/06/91)

In article <91156.050521U0DCB@wvnvm.wvnet.edu>, U0DCB@wvnvm.wvnet.edu (Bo Peng) writes...
>Maybe this belongs to the mud group but I feel so right to post it here. :)
> 
>First, my efforts to avoid flames:
>1)  Hey, the Grand PC family!  I'm one of your members!
>2)  WordPerfect IS one of the most powerful word processors.
> 
>Recently I have to use WP5.1.  So I had to buy a 4"-thick book, spend days to s
>tudy it, and keep it at hand all the time.  The more I study it, the more I'm a
>mazed by the richness of features, and the more I HATE THE GODDAMNED #@^*(*%!!
> 
>For crying out loud, you poor DOS hostages!  Your guys've been better in restra
>ining yourself than our Chinese!!  Could any human being possibly think of anyt
>hing less intuitive, more stoopid than WordPerfect?  I almost killed myself try
>ing to understand how free-spirited Americans could have lived with such an arb
>itrary, un-logical ... thing.  And learnt to appraise it.  Watch out my America
>n brothers.  Watch out for hard-core communists from WordPerfect!
> 
What word processor have you been using???!!  The only thing that I've 
seen that comes close to having WP5.1 capability is MS word, on PC or MAC.  
These don't come very close to being "intuitive" either.  I'm guessing that 
you're a MAC user.  Well, if you absolutely refuse to give up your mouse 
and use a better product that lets you keep your hands on the keyboard, go 
with Word for Windows.  I think that WP's macro/merge features are the
best, and WP says that they will have WP for windows out this summer.

>---------------------------- END OF MUD ---------------------------------------
>Seriously, I'd really appreciate tips/hints/comments about learning/using WP.

You will NEVER learn WP with your attitude.  I watched an otherwise 
intelligent engineer with a MAC background refuse to learn WP for a full 
year, just because it didn't have a mouse.  If you just start working on WP
, it gets easier quickly.

>And your opinions about MS Word For Windows.  I only have a little experience w
>ith it.  It looks good.  But I don't have access to the full-blown version and
>I'd like to hear from you before I decide to spend half of my monthly salary.

If you really want to use windows (I can't afford the disk/memory), I would 
probably wait for WP for Windows.


P.S.

I'm pretty sure that there is a wordprocessing newsgroup... There is a comp
text

> 
>I know, I've probably wasted the bandwith.  So direct all your flame/kind sugge
>stions/helps/brain detergents to U0DCB@WVNVM(.BITNET).
Andrew S. Brush             | SMBRUSH@EARTH.lerc.nasa.gov
Sverdrup Technology         | 2001 Aerospace Parkway
NASA LeRC Group             | Brook Park, OH 44142
"Opinions are Mine, Only"   | (216) 826-6770

dana@hardy.hdw.csd.harris.com (Dan Aksel) (06/06/91)

>You will NEVER learn WP with your attitude.  I watched an otherwise 
>intelligent engineer with a MAC background refuse to learn WP for a full 
>year, just because it didn't have a mouse.  If you just start working on WP
>, it gets easier quickly.

Huh?  WP5.1 works with a mouse.  As a matter of fact I've delevoped a philosphy
over the past couple of years: Screw the function keys, if the thing won't let
me use a mouse then I don't use the program.  Let's see: F1 on WP does X.  F1 on
WORD does Y.  F1 on Lotus does Z.  F1 on WORKVIEW does A.  F1 on dBASE III does
B.  Get the point?  Even if it takes longer, I've become accustomed to learning
the pull down menu approach to seek the commands I want.  I almost always know
the NAME of the command I want, I just can't keep the keys straight.  Looking
with the mouse is much more productive for me.  No I don't own a MAC but I do
know enought about it to do some things (like get myself in trouble).

After a while you learn SOME of the function keys even when using a mouse.  And
why bother to learn EVERYTHING inside out when the product gets upgraded every
couple of years?  The best "weapon" in using any PC application is a positive
attitude and the knowledge of where to go to get additional help.  Generally,
whenever I purchase a new application I READ the ENTIRE manual.  I LEARN things.
Do I retain it? Not all of it.  But I do become familar with where to find
things in the good book when I need them.  Folks, the name of the game isn't to
master every peice of software you own-- use it in a way that is productive for
YOU.  A guy who used to work here used to spend time deciding what the fewest
number of keystrokes would be to perform a function.  While he sat there
pondering all the complex gadgets of the program I'd plod along the "old" way
and most times finish before him...
----
Dan Aksel

epc1@quads.uchicago.edu (en pum cho) (06/06/91)

	WordPerfect is a great product and has millions of features.  I am
constantly amazed at how, as my needs grow, WP 5.1 is immediately able to
accomodate my growing and changing demands.  

	As for its nonintuitive commands, everyone at my company and I have
little problems adapting to its scheme.  I have a Mac as well as an IBM and 
so I have used Microsoft Word for Mac as well as for Windows.  WP 5.1 beats
them in versatility and functionality hands down.  Every so often, I'll
be upset at my Word for Mac because its graphical interface cannot accomodate
my needs.  WP5.1 never has this problem.  I've tried WP 1.0 for the Mac
and it's horrible.  However, I've heard that WP 2.0 for the Mac is excellent
and surpasses Word for Mac (shouldn't be hard to do).  WP for Windows
looks outstanding from the reviews I've heard from those who have attended
WP seminars and such.  I can't wait.  Word for Windows is frankly not that
great and I can't understand why it's so popular.  Until then, I'll stick
to my Ferrari-like WP 5.1 and let the others have their wimpy word processors.

	To the guy who originally started this thread, I can only say, "get
a clue".  The WP manual is thick.  WP 5.1 is powerful.  If you can read
then look up the commands in the manual as you need them.  It's very simple.
There is a help command at your disposal in WP 5.1.  WP 5.1 comes with
a template for those who need them.  And most of all, take some time
to learn.  Too many people want everything while investing nothing.
I don't understand why people need anything more than the manual.  The
manual is extremely comprehensive.  Maybe it's just too technical for some.
But then I've also heard that the average American reads at a 9th grade level
as well.

	And finally, WP has a toll free help line.  I've heard alot of
complaints about how long it takes them to answer the phone.  To check this
out, I called them about quite a few times.  To several different departments.
They never let me wait longer than a minute.  They have over 500 people
in their support staff.  They answer a new call every 24 seconds.  All
these claims about having to wait for 30-40 minutes is NOT true.  Maybe
a while ago it wa but I see that it's been changed.


PS I don't work for WP.  I'm just a college student.
-- 
En Pum Cho					
University of Chicago Class of 1994
math & economics major
epc1@midway.uchicago.edu

epc1@quads.uchicago.edu (en pum cho) (06/06/91)

	WordPerfect is a great product and has millions of features.  I am
constantly amazed at how, as my needs grow, WP 5.1 is immediately able to
accomodate my growing and changing demands.  

	As for its nonintuitive commands, everyone at my company and I have
little problems adapting to its scheme.  I have a Mac as well as an IBM and 
so I have used Microsoft Word for Mac as well as for Windows.  WP 5.1 beats
them in versatility and functionality hands down.  Every so often, I'll
be upset at my Word for Mac because its graphical interface cannot accomodate
my needs.  WP5.1 never has this problem.  I've tried WP 1.0 for the Mac
and it's horrible.  However, I've heard that WP 2.0 for the Mac is excellent
and surpasses Word for Mac (shouldn't be hard to do).  WP for Windows
looks outstanding from the reviews I've heard from those who have attended
WP seminars and such.  I can't wait.  Word for Windows is frankly not that
great and I can't understand why it's so popular.  Until then, I'll stick
to my Ferrari-like WP 5.1 and let the others have their wimpy word processors.

	To the guy who originally started this thread, I can only say, "get
a clue".  The WP manual is thick.  WP 5.1 is powerful.  If you can read
then look up the commands in the manual as you need them.  It's very simple.
There is a help command at your disposal in WP 5.1.  WP 5.1 comes with
a template for those who need them.  And most of all, take some time
to learn.  Too many people want everything while investing nothing.
I don't understand why people need anything more than the manual.  The
manual is extremely comprehensive.  Maybe it's just too technical for some.
But then I've also heard that the average American reads at a 9th grade level
as well.

	And finally, WP has a toll free help line.  I've heard alot of
complaints about how long it takes them to answer the phone.  To check this
out, I called them about quite a few times.  To several different departments.
They never let me wait longer than a minute.  They have over 500 people
in their support staff.  They answer a new call every 24 seconds.  All
these claims about having to wait for 30-40 minutes is NOT true.  Maybe
a while ago it wa but I see that it's been changed.


PS I don't work for WP.  I'm just a college student.
-- 
En Pum Cho					
University of Chicago Class of 1994
math & economics major
epc1@midway.uchicago.edu


-- 
En Pum Cho					
University of Chicago Class of 1994
math & economics major
epc1@midway.uchicago.edu

MXL4@psuvm.psu.edu (06/07/91)

Regarding the functionality of the mouse w/WP5.1, I concur with the
last poster--that using the keys is faster But with one exception...

When editing, moving the cursor from place to place becomes a breeze with
Mr. Roll 'n' Tap (that's my mousie's private name, not a brand).


                             Mostly THE BEAR

aka MXL4@PSUVM <Mark Lafer>                   ()      ()
                                                 o . o
Not a By-product of Any Technology!               xxx

fisher@sc2a.unige.ch (06/07/91)

In article <3600@travis.csd.harris.com>, dana@hardy.hdw.csd.harris.com (Dan Aksel) writes:
> [...]  As a matter of fact I've delevoped a philosphy
> over the past couple of years: Screw the function keys, if the thing won't let
> me use a mouse then I don't use the program.  Let's see: F1 on WP does X.  F1 on
> WORD does Y.  F1 on Lotus does Z.  F1 on WORKVIEW does A.  F1 on dBASE III does
> B.  Get the point?  Even if it takes longer, I've become accustomed to learning
> the pull down menu approach to seek the commands I want.  I almost always know
> the NAME of the command I want, I just can't keep the keys straight.  Looking
> with the mouse is much more productive for me.  No I don't own a MAC but I do
> know enought about it to do some things (like get myself in trouble).

I've also developed a philosophy in the last few years: learn the function
keys!  Using WP, Alt-F10 is `call macro' (equivalent to {Menu}-Tools-mAcro-
eXecute, *not* T-M-E), in MS-Word, it's `record style' (equivalent to [ESC]-
Format-Style-Record).  Usually, I look at the screen, not at the keyboard :-)
using the menu, you see several drastic changes on it while you type,
resulting in eye-fatigue;  using the function key, you see only one screen
update.  This is a *very* serious issue for me!

Thus the basic philosophy to understand why WP was programmed the way it is: 
minimize screen movements!  (Yes, this is why in WP only the current line is
formatted during edit, instead of Word's irritating misfeature of constant
reformatting (and justifying!) the rest of the page...)  BTW: this is also the
advantage of pull-down menus:  the movements are standardized and predictable,
resulting in less stress to your eyes.

Maybe it's a cultural difference:  I've noticed that american software (with
the exception of WP) tend to overdo the chrome (colours, pop-ups, borders,
flashes).  To take an example:  talking with friends all over Europe, we agree
that the blinking attribute is an offence both to good taste and to our
health, and we never understood why it was even invented.  Programs using it
(US home grown only, so it seems) deserve to be trashed immediately.

Thus in the US `user-friendly' probably means on-screen menus and help, while
in Europe, it means also respective of the user's eyes, polite, and respective
of the most elementary good taste.  (take this whith humour :-)

Another disadvantage of menus is that they are subject to unpredictable
changes (I know it's [ESC]-Transfer-Load or [ESC]-Lit/ecrit-charge, but in
german? :-)  Of course, many people don't live in an international (or pluri-
lingual) environment, but this *is* the future!  Your nice macro will not run
on another language version if it uses the menu-letter...  (Yes again, this is
why all options is WP, including `Y/N' or `Name search', have a numerical
equivalent!)

One more thing to say about function keys: you'll need keyboard templates. 
The first thing I do when I learn or teach a software is to place the
appropriate template over the keys.  (Who wants a WP document containing
templates for WP and MS-Word?)

Disclaimer:  You see, I'm with WP since 1985 (version 3.0), long before the
Mac, the mere notion of pull-down menus or the idea of a mouse (I'm speaking
micro-computers here, the first trackman I saw was developed here in Geneva
back in 1970 or so).  Of course, when you entered your pirated copy of WP 3.0,
you had very little chance to find the `quit' key...  it was Alt-= ! (`help' 
was at Shift-F3, I believe...)  This single fact did probably more harm to WP
than anything else...  Since that time, function keys seem more natural to me,
and I know they are easier to implement, thus reducing overload for a
questionable user interface (GUI or MUI - graphic or menu user interface).

Disclaimer of the disclaimer:  When I say I'm ``with'' WP, it means a
satisfied customer, nothing else.

Enough said, thanks for the attention, though!

Markus Fischer

seals@ecsvax.uncecs.edu (Larry W. Seals) (06/07/91)

About two years ago, the site where I was working decided on WP 5.0 as
the standard for all editorial and clerical staff (we in the tech area
had been using it for a number of months) when we expanded our network.

I was designated as the WP "expert" in charge of installation, 
instruction and help desk (this was only because I was the only one
in our area who had taken the time to read any of the manuals and use
some of the features).  The DP Manager (who refused to use WP - he was
miffed because PC Write wasn't chosen) decided that we would also
purchase Ko-Pilot, an add-on product that presents pull-down menus to
the user.

The instruction was tough.  These poor souls had been using Display 
Write on a IBM SYS36 for years and were unprepared to give up their
3180 terminals for PS/2s, DOS and the network (Novell).  To their credit
once they saw what was available to them in WP and with one good 
reference book available (I don't remember who wrote it but it was from
Sybex Books), they gave it the benefit of the doubt.

One of the hardest to convert was my wife.  She had made up her mind
that WP was too hard, too complex and she just didn't have the time.
With about two hours of individualized instruction, I saved my marriage
and turned her into a WP 'pro'.  In fact, most of the users decided
against using Ko-Pilot in favor of just using the templates and
relying on their own skills.

Two years later and this staff of 35 or so has moved on to 5.1, 
producing camera-ready copy and moving into desktop publishing.  It's
not that I'm some great teacher - I'm not.  It was two things:
1. The power of WP and 2. the "learn a feature as you need it" approach
coupled with sharing the knowledge.

I had used Word for DOS and WordStar along with some other minor players
but I found WP much easier to learn and use.  Intuitive, no.  Maybe
WP for Windows or the Mac are (I've moved on to 'greener pastures' 
where we don't have much in the way of PC based resources, so I haven't
seen them).

My two cents...  :-)

Standard disclaimers apply.
************************************************************************
Larry Seals @ Trailing Edge Software - "When it doesn't have to be
                                           the very best!"
"Hot Damn Tamale, Charley! You forgot to put the top on!" - Tortelvis
************************************************************************

calloway@hplvec.LVLD.HP.COM (Frank Calloway) (06/08/91)

In comp.sys.ibm.pc.misc, epc1@quads.uchicago.edu (en pum cho) writes:

>  WordPerfect is a great product and has millions of features.  I am 
>  constantly amazed at how, as my needs grow, WP 5.1 is immediately able to
>  accomodate my growing and changing demands.  

I agree.  I've been with WordPerfect since version 4.1 (six years or so) and
have yet to find a reason to switch to anything else (except WordPerfect for
Windows when it's released).  Prior to using WordPerfect, I was an experienced
user of Microsoft Word, and Wordstar before that.  While I have seen other
products that have excellent features (such as Word's "undo" versus
WordPerfect's less powerful "undelete"), nothing else gets the overall job
done for me as well as WordPerfect does.  And I'm not alone in feeling this
way; we have about eight technical writers who are satisfied users of
WordPerfect (several of whom migrated to it from Word).

Note that this isn't a religious issue for me.  If somebody dictated that I
use a different word processor, I'd still get my job done.  But I would
become less productive and lament the loss of an old friend.

Frank Calloway

c60c-2ia@web-2a.berkeley.edu (Wei-Lun THE MAN) (06/11/91)

In article #9969, fisher@sc2a.unige.ch wrote:

>> [...]  As a matter of fact I've delevoped a philosphy
>> over the past couple of years: Screw the function keys, if the thing won't let

>> me use a mouse then I don't use the program.  Let's see: F1 on WP does X.  F1
on
>> WORD does Y.  F1 on Lotus does Z.  F1 on WORKVIEW does A.  F1 on dBASE III doe
s
>> B.  Get the point?  Even if it takes longer, I've become accustomed to learnin
g
>> the pull down menu approach to seek the commands I want.  I almost always know

>> the NAME of the command I want, I just can't keep the keys straight.  Looking
>> with the mouse is much more productive for me.  No I don't own a MAC but I do
>> know enought about it to do some things (like get myself in trouble).

>I've also developed a philosophy in the last few years: learn the function
>keys!  Using WP, Alt-F10 is `call macro' (equivalent to {Menu}-Tools-mAcro-
>eXecute, *not* T-M-E), in MS-Word, it's `record style' (equivalent to [ESC]-
>Format-Style-Record).  Usually, I look at the screen, not at the keyboard :-)
>using the menu, you see several drastic changes on it while you type,
>resulting in eye-fatigue;  using the function key, you see only one screen
>update.  This is a *very* serious issue for me!

Besides the extra strain on your eyes, those of you who use old (and thus slow)
PC/XT's (like I do on my job) should know that it takes ages to update the
screen when you use the stupid pull-down menus.  With function keys, it's just
one screen update, fast, easy, and pleasant.  Besides, even if it takes your
Compaq Deskpro 33Mhz 386 no time at all to update the screen when using pull
-down menus, it still take much more time to make a simple selection!

Come on guys, after you use it for enough times, the function keys will be just
as intuitive as up-shift/down-shift when driving a stick shift!

daveo@hpcvra.cv.hp.com. (Dave Ochs) (06/13/91)

/ hpcvra.cv.hp.com:comp.sys.ibm.pc / s64421@zeus.usq.EDU.AU (house ron) /  7:30 am  Jun 11, 1991 /
s902255@minyos.xx.rmit.oz.au (A. Vanderstock) writes:

>My first document:  Let's have some bold 10 pt roman, some italic 10 pt
>Helvetica, etc etc...  What happened?  All the fonts came out in different
>sizes because idiot Word thinks points are a horizontal measurement!

This is just plain wrong.  Points are exactly what you expect ... they refer
to vertical size.  I don't know what YOU were doing, but it works fine for
me and the rest of the world (possible a slight exageration).

>Ron House.   (s64421@zeus.usq.edu.au)

Dave Ochs
daveo@cv.hp.com

mox@vpnet.chi.il.us (William Moxley) (06/13/91)

Out of the many word processors I have tried, WordPerfect is the best.
My suggestion is to use the function key template that came with the
package.  If you have a quaetion about something, consult the manual
on it or use wordperfect's help which is, despite common belief, very 
good.  If you find yourself still lost in the very beginning, run the
tutorial, ask someone for help, buy a learning aid.  WordPerfect is
only hard if you make it that way.  Once you get the hang of the basic 
program, everything else will fall into place.  NOTE: If you really get
lost, email me and I'll try to help.

					William Moxley
					mox@vpnet.chi.il.us

Please Note: I don't work for WordPerfect, although I wish I did.
            

rm3@ornl.gov (MCBROOM R C) (06/25/91)

In article <55640001@hpcvra.cv.hp.com.> daveo@hpcvra.cv.hp.com. (Dave Ochs) writes:
>/ hpcvra.cv.hp.com:comp.sys.ibm.pc / s64421@zeus.usq.EDU.AU (house ron) /  7:30 am  Jun 11, 1991 /
>s902255@minyos.xx.rmit.oz.au (A. Vanderstock) writes:
>
>>My first document:  Let's have some bold 10 pt roman, some italic 10 pt
>>Helvetica, etc etc...  What happened?  All the fonts came out in different
>>sizes because idiot Word thinks points are a horizontal measurement!
>
>This is just plain wrong.  Points are exactly what you expect ... they refer
>to vertical size.  I don't know what YOU were doing, but it works fine for
>me and the rest of the world (possible a slight exageration).
>
Lets see,  Back in the days when I was in High School wnd worked in a 
antique printshop, It seems to me that when the point size changed both the
vertical and horizontal sizes changed.  How much depended on the font that
was being used.  Wordperfect provides the view option in the print menu screen
so that you can see what your page will look like before you send it to the 
printer.  the trade-offs between the ease and speed of using the text mode
for entry and what you see is what you "almost" get wiil be debated from 
now on.  The inevitable differences in resolution and media will continue to 
make getting the final product an iterative process.

Robert McBroom internet: rm3@ornl.gov