cnav11@vaxa.strath.ac.uk (05/20/91)
Path: str-va!cnav11 From: cnav11@vaxa.strath.ac.uk Newsgroups: comp.os.msdos.programmer Subject: IDE's :Want to Know More Message-ID: <1991May20.151010.11704@vaxa.strath.ac.uk> Date: 20 May 91 15:10:10 GMT Organization: Strathclyde University VAX Cluster Lines: 22 Recently I bought a 386 25MHz IBM compatible.After a few weeks the computer wouldn't start up and kept giving very "strange" messages including Cannot find operating system CMOS battery state low When I took the computer back to the dealer he said that the latest range of IBM compatibles have IDE (Integrated Drive Electronics) disk controllers and since I had been using Norton Utilities and PCtools this had probably corrupted the reserved sectors on the hard disk resulting in the system crahing. He couldn't however find the exact fault so he gave me a computer with a new motherboard and advised me to avoid using utility programs. Does anyone have any more information on IDE's and was the dealer correct in telling me to avoid using utility programs.?
greg@irl.ise.ufl.edu (Greg O'Rear) (05/21/91)
In article <1991May20.151843.11705@vaxa.strath.ac.uk> cnav11@vaxa.strath.ac.uk writes: >Recently I bought a 386 25MHz IBM compatible.After a few weeks >the computer wouldn't start up and kept giving very "strange" >messages.... > >Does anyone have any more information on IDE's and was the dealer >correct in telling me to avoid using utility programs.? If you low-level format an IDE drive, chances are the drive will be rendered useless. One reason is because the low-level format process destroys the bad block list, in effect. After you use the disk for a while, you are bound to run into an unmarked bad block. I had this problem. Solution: replace the disk, or find a low-level format program designed to work with the drive. As for utility programs, a call to Norton Utilities Tech Support reveals that programs like Speed Disk work fine with IDE drives. The drive takes care of translating the disk locations, not DOS. This info is admittedly sketchy. Perhaps someone with more knowledge can add to/correct the above. -- Greg O'Rear Industrial and Systems Engineering Department, University of Florida Address: O'Rear@ise.ufl.edu
ralphs@seattleu.edu (Ralph Sims) (05/21/91)
cnav11@vaxa.strath.ac.uk writes: > Does anyone have any more information on IDE's and was the dealer > correct in telling me to avoid using utility programs.? I'd be inclined to look for someone else to deal with, if possible. On the surface, it sounds as if he doesn't have a handle on what goes on in a computer system (I don't either, to the level of a tech, but I am able to keep things afloat with a minimum of effort). I have heard more than once that 'It's not our hardware, it's your software.' I don't believe it. I've been using IDE drives since 1987, with minimal problems. With these, I've used PCTOOLS in its various releases, Norton Utilities, XTree, run news and mail systems, low-level formatted, etc. I'd have looked for other problems, such as a faulty CMOS chip, or even a problem with the system's battery. If utilities were bad (especially commercial ones from reliable sources, i.e. Norton, Central Point, etc.), they wouldn't stay on the market for too long. -- The 23:00 News and Mail Service - +1 206 292 9048 - Seattle, WA USA PEP, V.32, V.42 +++ A Waffle Iron, Model 1.64 +++
mikel@teda.Teradyne.COM (Mikel Lechner) (05/23/91)
halcyon!ralphs@seattleu.edu (Ralph Sims) writes: >cnav11@vaxa.strath.ac.uk writes: >> Does anyone have any more information on IDE's and was the dealer >> correct in telling me to avoid using utility programs.? >I've been using IDE drives since 1987, with minimal problems. With >these, I've used PCTOOLS in its various releases, Norton Utilities, >XTree, run news and mail systems, low-level formatted, etc. I'd >have looked for other problems, such as a faulty CMOS chip, or even >a problem with the system's battery. If utilities were bad (especially >commercial ones from reliable sources, i.e. Norton, Central Point, etc.), >they wouldn't stay on the market for too long. Well, I'll quote from my IDE disk manual (Kyocera KC 40GA): "Since it is impossible for a generic BIOS or generic low-level format program to understand the variable number of sectors per track, the KC-40GA protects itself from damage by not actually reformatting in response to the Format Track Command. The implication of this passage is that unless your low-level format software knows how to properly handle IDE disks, it can damage your disk. IDE disks support the notion of sector slipping. Every track on the disk has an extra sector. If one of the sectors is bad, then the bad sector is skipped, and the subsequent sectors are all slipped one sector forward, thus consuming the extra sector. This makes most disk flaws transparent to DOS. Also (at least for my IDE disk), there are a variable number of sectors per track. More sectors on the outer tracks, where there is more room. The IDE controller hides all this and makes the disk appear as 5 head 17 sector per track disk. If you try to low-level format this disk, you will probably lose track of the bad disk sectors. It will probably also attempt to format all tracks with the same number of sectors. I would expect this to cause numerous problems. In short, don't low-level format IDE disks unless you know what you're doing. -- Mikel Lechner UUCP: teda!mikel Teradyne EDA, Inc. 5155 Old Ironsides Drive | If you explain so clearly that nobody Santa Clara, Ca 95054 | can misunderstand, somebody will.