axaris@acsu.buffalo.edu (vassilios e axaris) (10/12/90)
Hello, I am in the market for a drive, but I cannot decide whether to go with RLL or IDE. I am aware of the specs (embedded controller on IDEs and the like) however my system (a 10MHz 286) does not have on board IDE connectors. And since both types of drives will have to go through the AT bus, is there any advantage(s) of choosing IDE over RLL? My alternatives so far include a Toshiba MK134 with a WD1006SRV, and either a Conner or Maxtor IDE drives (the 80MB models). Thanks in advance, Vassilios E. Axaris
phil@brahms.amd.com (Phil Ngai) (10/13/90)
In article <40277@eerie.acsu.Buffalo.EDU> axaris@acsu.buffalo.edu (vassilios e axaris) writes: |My alternatives so far include a Toshiba MK134 with a WD1006SRV, and either |a Conner or Maxtor IDE drives (the 80MB models). The Toshiba MK134 is the best 40/60 MB disk drive in the world. If you can afford it and the capacity is right for you, it will make you very happy. If you need a bigger one, check out the MK234. Conner and Maxtor are ok, but my Maxtor disk is too noisy. (everything's too noisy after you've seen and heard a Toshiba) -- The Bill of Rights isn't perfect, but it's better than what we have now.
PICHER@MAINE.BITNET (Michael W. Picher) (10/13/90)
The IDE drives that are available are generally faster and much less expensive than RLL drives. Most of the IDE's also have built in caching which definately helps. I would check out the following drives: Quantum Pro80AT - 19ms, 64kb cache Rodime 105MB (forget the model number) - 18ms, 32kb cache You should be able to easily get either of these drive for under $600 and possibly as low as $550. I have just begun evaluating the Rodime drive but have used the Quantum for over a year. The only problem with the Quantum is availability. This is a VERY popular drive (I believe even moreso in SCSI form where it is used by Apple and some other major manufacturers). You should be able to find an AT adaptor board w/ floppy for around $75 (including 2 serial, 1 parallel). Mike
amichiel@rodan.acs.syr.edu (Allen J Michielsen) (10/13/90)
In article <1990Oct12.182309.3713@amd.com> phil@brahms.amd.com (Phil Ngai) wri >In article <40277@eerie.acsu.Buffalo.EDU> axaris@acsu.buffalo.edu (vassilios e >|My alternatives so far include a Toshiba MK134 with a WD1006SRV, and either >|a Conner or Maxtor IDE drives (the 80MB models). > >The Toshiba MK134 is ... it will >make you very happy. If you need a bigger one, check out the MK234. > >Conner and Maxtor are ok, but my Maxtor disk is too noisy. >(everything's too noisy after you've seen and heard a Toshiba) Phil, I think you may be overlooking the real question. I would choose the IDE type format over a RLL-st-506 format, for speed/performance. I avoid all cheap st506 rll drives and prefer cheap st506 mfm, when doing cheap. The doing performance & paying more, i'd choose the IDE -rll format. (IDE drives are still actually using either rll or mfm format but not with the standard st506 interface.) Given the choice of a 'noisy' maxtor or connor & IDE or a 'quite' toshiba st506, on the performance rating, either ide is a better choice I feel. I also am not sure that the 'noise' of the maxtor is signifigant because my systems have cooling fans, and monitors that are much louder by comparision. That isn't to say that the toshiba is a bad choice. And if I were using the st506 interface & spending money, it would be my first choice also. al -- Al. Michielsen, Mechanical & Aerospace Engineering, Syracuse University InterNet: amichiel@rodan.acs.syr.edu amichiel@sunrise.acs.syr.edu Bitnet: AMICHIEL@SUNRISE
axaris@acsu.buffalo.edu (vassilios e axaris) (10/14/90)
I'd like to thank the fellow netters that have replied to my query on IDE and RLL drives. However, I have received personal messages mentioning that Unix and Xenix do not work properly with IDE drives. Does this apply to all IDE drives or just a few particular ones? Thanks again, Vassilios E. Axaris
james@bigtex.cactus.org (James Van Artsdalen) (10/14/90)
In <40552@eerie.acsu.Buffalo.EDU>, axaris@acsu.buffalo.edu (vassilios e axaris) wrote: > However, I have received personal messages mentioning that Unix and > Xenix do not work properly with IDE drives. Does this apply to all IDE > drives or just a few particular ones? Some versions of unix / xenix try to figure out the geometry of a drive. I recall that ISC did this to drives on the secondary controller in at least some cases if not all. This may not work for an IDE drive. ISC may have changed this. The problem is that many IDE drives adjust their apparent geometry to whatever the system wants. If you ask for 64 sectors per track, you got it, with fewer cylinders or heads. The way you figure out the geometry is to tell the drive it has 255 sectors per track, 16 heads and 1024 cylinders (for example), and see if it works by seeking to those values. The code detecting the geometry may be assuming that the drive's geometry is fixed, whereas each time you program a new geometry into an IDE, it changes. The bottom line is that you'll just have to try it out. I don't know if anyone ever used the above algorithm for a drive on the primary controller/connector. PS. Remember to keep the IDE cable length SHORT! -- James R. Van Artsdalen james@bigtex.cactus.org "Live Free or Die" Dell Computer Co 9505 Arboretum Blvd Austin TX 78759 512-338-8789
ucmpme@swuts.swbt.com (1593]) (10/16/90)
In article <40552@eerie.acsu.Buffalo.EDU>, axaris@acsu.buffalo.edu (vassilios e axaris) writes: > I'd like to thank the fellow netters who have replied to my query on IDE and > RLL drives. However, I have received personal messages mentioning that Unix > and Xenix do not work properly with IDE drives. Does this apply to all IDE > drives or just a few particular ones? > Thanks again, > > Vassilios E. Axaris I have a Toshiba MK234FC-1 100meg IDE drive that works quite nicely with my UNIX - ESIX 3.2 Rev. D. The drive is quiet, and fast! The only problem I've had is one I posted to the net some time ago-- I can format the drive to 117mb on DOS, but ESIX refused to recognize more than 820 or so cylinders. Since it does give me more than the drive's rated capacity (about 109mb), I quit worrying about the extra 10 or so meg. But since we're back on IDE drives.....Does anyone have a clue? When ESIX gets to about 820, the sector count (during surface analysis) just races to the end, that is, it continues counting rapidly out to the number of cylinders I told it to expect. Then, when making the file system, it reports sector not found. (I can't remember the exact message, but if one of you gurus *really* have a clue I can find it.) And one other embarassingly simple question...Is it possible to use the color capability of the console *outside* of X-windows? I don't want fancy graphics - yet. I just want a plain blue background with cyan (or even white) lettering. Trust me, White letters on a black screen is inhuman. Hope my comment helps, and hope someone can comment to help me. BTW, I didn't buy TFM. I have access to standard SYS V documentation, and besides, I blew the money on ESIX. ( :^) thanks. -- M. E. Evans UUCP: swuts!ucmpme or sw1e!ucmpme
PICHER@MAINE.BITNET (Michael W. Picher) (10/17/90)
I have had the Quantum Pro80AT IDE drive running Interactive's version of Unix fine. I also have a customer who runs Coherent on the Quantum fine. As I recall, the problem with Unix and varients is that they need a certain number of SPT. What's nice is that most IDE drives allow you to set the HDS, CYLS, and SPT to whatever you want as long as the combined add up to a drive size that is = or < the capacity of the drive. Michael W. Picher Picher@Maine.Maine.Edu 207-623-4012 LexIkon Microsystems, Inc. 333 Water St. Augusta, ME 04330
brim@cbmvax.commodore.com (Mike Brim - Product Assurance) (10/17/90)
In article <40552@eerie.acsu.Buffalo.EDU> axaris@acsu.buffalo.edu (vassilios e axaris) writes: > I'd like to thank the fellow netters that have replied to my query on IDE and > RLL drives. However, I have received personal messages mentioning that Unix > and Xenix do not work properly with IDE drives. Does this apply to all IDE > drives or just a few particular ones? > Thanks again, I have run the following Unix and Xenix operating Systems on the following HD's: - UHC Unix System 5 ver.4 release 1.0 - Interactive Unix System 5 ver 4 release 2.0.2 - SCO Xenix System 5 ver ? release 2.3.2 I do not claim to know Unix/Xenix 100%. The tests on these operating systems include installation (w/surface analysis), and hard drive writes/reads/compares. No long term testing was performed (ie. running for 6 months) Drives : - Conner CP-3204F 200megs - Quantum 80AT Prodrive 80megs - Quantum 40AT Prodrive 40megs - Quantum 105AT Prodrive LPS 105megs - Quantum 52AT Prodrive LPS 52megs - Seagate ST-1239A 200megs All drives are IDE and of the latest rev (except for the Conner). They all ran with no apparent problems. Since revs change quickly check with each drive maker for their testing results. BTW, the subject of this topic should not be RLL vs. IDE since most AT interfaced IDE drives use 2,7 RLL data coding. If you received info on IDE that do not work with Unix/Xenix please share that with the rest of us. There are others that may need to know. Thank you. -- ******************************************************************************** Disclaimer: My company knows not what I say (or do). Mike Brim | Commodore Electronics Limited PC Analyst - System Evaluation Group | West Chester, PA 19380 Product Assurance | InterNet: brim@cbmvax.commodore.com ********************************************************************************
umcarls9@ccu.umanitoba.ca (Charles Carlson) (10/18/90)
In article <513@swuts.swbt.com> ucmpme@swuts.swbt.com (1593]) writes: >I have a Toshiba MK234FC-1 100meg IDE drive that works quite nicely >with my UNIX - ESIX 3.2 Rev. D. The drive is quiet, and fast! >The only problem I've had is one I posted to the net some time ago-- >I can format the drive to 117mb on DOS, but ESIX refused to recognize o ^^^^^^^ >more than 820 or so cylinders. Since it does give me more than the >drive's rated capacity (about 109mb), I quit worrying about the extra >10 or so meg. How did you get 117mb under DOS? I have the 234FC in my 386 with AMI BIOS and I only have ~104 mb. I used the parameters Toshiba gave me. Charles
patf@hprpcd.HP.COM (pat fung) (10/18/90)
One word of warning about IDE drives. If you intent to add a second IDE drive, you may have to stuck with the same manufacturer. I have try to use a CONNER and a Quantum drive together, no way. Different manufacturers use different master/slave handshake scheme. Beware! Pat
dhesi%cirrusl@oliveb.ATC.olivetti.com (Rahul Dhesi) (10/18/90)
In <15206@cbmvax.commodore.com> brim@cbmvax.commodore.com (Mike Brim - Product Assurance) writes: >BTW, the subject of this topic should not be RLL vs. IDE since most AT >interfaced IDE drives use 2,7 RLL data coding. The subject of *any* topic should not be "RLL vs IDE". There is no contradiction between the two. And this conclusion is independent of whether or not the IDE drive uses 2,7 RLL encoding. An IDE drive can use RLL encoding. An IDE drive can use MFM encoding. An IDE drive can use bubble memory. An IDE drive can use FM encoding. Or, for that matter, AM. An IDE drive can be a CD-ROM drive. IDE means "integrated drive electronics". It tells you where the controller lies. It doesn't tell you how the controller works. IDE drives look like standard AT bus drives -- because, on ATs at least, that's what they are. -- Rahul Dhesi <dhesi%cirrusl@oliveb.ATC.olivetti.com> UUCP: oliveb!cirrusl!dhesi
gettys@regent.enet.dec.com (Bob Gettys N1BRM) (10/23/90)
In article <27880001@hprpcd.HP.COM>, patf@hprpcd.HP.COM (pat fung) writes... > > One word of warning about IDE drives. If you intent to add a second >IDE drive, you may have to stuck with the same manufacturer. I have try to >use a CONNER and a Quantum drive together, no way. Different manufacturers >use different master/slave handshake scheme. Beware! > > >Pat I'm going to refute that. I had a Quantam Pro40 AT IDE drive as my drive C: and Conner 105mb IDE drive as my drives D: and E: in my 386sx clone at home. At work we regularly mix Conner and Miniscribe drives in the same PC. /s/ Bob Gettys
davidsen@sixhub.UUCP (Wm E. Davidsen Jr) (10/23/90)
In article <90290.084946PICHER@MAINE.BITNET> PICHER@MAINE.BITNET (Michael W. Picher) writes: | As I recall, the problem with Unix and varients is that they need | a certain number of SPT. You have that about 180 degrees off. MS-DOS uses the BIOS and doesn't like drives not in the table. Most versions of UNIX, certainly the 386 and all SCO versions, allow you to configure the drive at install time, and use whatever the actual values happen to be. -- bill davidsen - davidsen@sixhub.uucp (uunet!crdgw1!sixhub!davidsen) sysop *IX BBS and Public Access UNIX moderator of comp.binaries.ibm.pc and 80386 mailing list "Stupidity, like virtue, is its own reward" -me
phil@brahms.amd.com (Phil Ngai) (10/23/90)
In article <27880001@hprpcd.HP.COM> patf@hprpcd.HP.COM (pat fung) writes: | | One word of warning about IDE drives. If you intent to add a second |IDE drive, you may have to stuck with the same manufacturer. I have try to |use a CONNER and a Quantum drive together, no way. Different manufacturers |use different master/slave handshake scheme. Beware! If this is true, those idiots can go suck eggs. I'm going to stick with good old ST-506. -- The Bill of Rights isn't perfect, but it's better than what we have now.
brim@cbmvax.commodore.com (Mike Brim - Product Assurance) (10/24/90)
In article <1990Oct23.011603.28498@amd.com> phil@brahms.amd.com (Phil Ngai) writes: > In article <27880001@hprpcd.HP.COM> patf@hprpcd.HP.COM (pat fung) writes: > | > | One word of warning about IDE drives. If you intent to add a second > |IDE drive, you may have to stuck with the same manufacturer. I have try to > |use a CONNER and a Quantum drive together, no way. Different manufacturers > |use different master/slave handshake scheme. Beware! > > If this is true, those idiots can go suck eggs. I'm going to stick > with good old ST-506. > This was true with some of the older IDE drives. In fact I have two Conner drives that refuse to work together. Newer models don't seem to have the prob. I've used Conner with Quantums with Western Digitals with Seagates. -- ******************************************************************************** Disclaimer: My company knows not what I say (or do). Mike Brim | Commodore Electronics Limited PC Analyst - System Evaluation Group | West Chester, PA 19380 Product Assurance | InterNet: brim@cbmvax.commodore.com ********************************************************************************
wbonner@eecs.wsu.edu (Wim Bonner) (10/25/90)
I've gotten confused by this whole IDE thing. Can I connect most IDE drives to a standard AT hard drive controller? (Western Digital standard I suppose?) Do I need to get a new controller? I have an AT with very few extra slots (read all full at present, but I COULD pull a card if need be.) and a st251-1? (40 meg seagate drive) connected to the standard controller. Would I be able to connect an IDE drive if I bought a new one to the current controller? Is there an easy solution to adding another drive, other than adding another similar drive? Wim. -- wbonner@yoda.eecs.wsu.edu 27313853@wsuvm1.csc.wsu.edu 27313853@Wsuvm1.BITNET 72561.3135@CompuServe.com