jimr@applix.com (Jim Rouleau [ext 256]) (02/13/91)
OK, here we go... I am trying to install 2 hard drives in my AT. I
haven't seen much info on the subject and I've asked around to no avail.
(The drives are a Micropolis 1325 and a Miniscribe 3425). I've lots of
questions, bear with me.
The controller cable I'm using has the card connector, some straight
cable, connector '1', a twisted section, and finally connector '2'.
X----------X---------X
X----------X--\-/----X not perfect, but you get the idea.
X----------X---|-----X
X----------X--/-\----X
'1' '2'
Anyway, each drive will boot the machine if I connect it to
connector '1'. What I would really like is to boot the machine with
the Micropolis and have the Miniscribe be drive 2. (but I'll take
the other way If I could even get that!). I've tried different combos
with no luck. I have configured the CMOS, so that's no problem.
I've also tried just booting the machine with either drive attached
to connector '2' and changing the select jumpers, but haven't been
able to boot the machine by doing this. I assume that I have the
jumpers set to drive select 1 when I am able to boot them
separately.
What makes a drive first or second and how does the machine
distinguish them? Is is just the data cable or does the controller
cable play too? (Does anyone know 'why the twist'? I,ve heard
"hard drive cables are different than floppy cables", but isn't
the twist the only difference?) What about the terminating resistors?
Do I want the first physical drive on connector '1' or '2'?
Another thing, what about the partitions? Right now I've got a
bootable partition on each drive. Will DOS be nice and allow me
to change the logical drive of the second physical drive so that
if the last logical drive of the Micropolis if E> and I cd to
F> then I will be accessing the Miniscribe? Or do I have to change
something first, while I can still access each drive as the first?
As you can see, I have got a lot of bits and pieces, but haven't
managed to piece them together coherently enough to form the picture.
I might be the only one who doesn't understand this, but if there's
enough interest I'll post a summary.cummings@hammer.Prime.COM (Kevin Cummings) (02/14/91)
In article <1122@applix.com>, jimr@applix.com (Jim Rouleau [ext 256]) writes: |> |> OK, here we go... I am trying to install 2 hard drives in my AT. I Well, I have installed a second hard drive in my PC. So it can be done. |> haven't seen much info on the subject and I've asked around to no avail. |> (The drives are a Micropolis 1325 and a Miniscribe 3425). I've lots of |> questions, bear with me. OK, these are both ST506/ST412 interface drives. (MFM to some.) |> The controller cable I'm using has the card connector, some straight |> cable, connector '1', a twisted section, and finally connector '2'. |> |> X----------X---------X |> X----------X--\-/----X not perfect, but you get the idea. |> X----------X---|-----X |> X----------X--/-\----X |> '1' '2' Hmm, I replaced the twisted cable with a straight through cable. I then strapped each drive so that it worked. Remember to hook up the data cables too. B^) And since you can boot either drive independently, I'll assume you're getting the cables plugged in right. Are your edge card connectors keyed? Especially '2'? |> Anyway, each drive will boot the machine if I connect it to |> connector '1'. What I would really like is to boot the machine with |> the Micropolis and have the Miniscribe be drive 2. (but I'll take |> the other way If I could even get that!). I've tried different combos |> with no luck. I have configured the CMOS, so that's no problem. |> I've also tried just booting the machine with either drive attached |> to connector '2' and changing the select jumpers, but haven't been |> able to boot the machine by doing this. I assume that I have the |> jumpers set to drive select 1 when I am able to boot them |> separately. In theory, you should be able to correctly set the device jumper on your hard drive, and plug the data cable to the right data connector on the controller, and it should work. |> What makes a drive first or second and how does the machine |> distinguish them? Is is just the data cable or does the controller |> cable play too? (Does anyone know 'why the twist'? I,ve heard |> "hard drive cables are different than floppy cables", but isn't |> the twist the only difference?) What about the terminating resistors? |> Do I want the first physical drive on connector '1' or '2'? Good question. I'm not sure of the specifics, so if I screwed up the real drive device selections, please don't yell at me. After all, I got *MY* system working! Besides, I am at work right now, and can't look at the actual configuration I have at home. The PC considers Device 1 (not 0, 2, or 3) as the first drive. The second device is also configured as device 1, but is accessed after the flip in the cable and is actually responding to another device line from the disk controller. (Could be either Device 0 or Device 2, I forget, but supposedly the cable flip also flips the other two device numbers as well. Say: "Thank you IBM".) The fact that your disks will boot the machine when plugged into connector '1' while configured as device 1 rules out the possibility of the machine trying to boot from device 0. Now all you have to figure out is if the second drive is device 0 or device 2. With the flip in the cable, you should jumper it as device 1. Without the flip in the cable, you must jumper the drive correctly. Don't forget that a SEPERATE data cable must go from the controller to the second hard drive. The control cable is dasiy chained, but not the data cable! (But then you knew that, right?) |> Another thing, what about the partitions? Right now I've got a |> bootable partition on each drive. Will DOS be nice and allow me |> to change the logical drive of the second physical drive so that |> if the last logical drive of the Micropolis if E> and I cd to |> F> then I will be accessing the Miniscribe? Or do I have to change |> something first, while I can still access each drive as the first? Here is where I think you are getting into trouble. I had some problems partitioning my second hard drive. What works is: Create only an EXTENDED DOS PARTITION on the second drive. Don't create a PRIMARY (bootable) DOS PARTITION. I found out the hard way that you can't access any bootable partitions except the one you booted from! Actually, because my second drive has > 1024 cylinders, I used SpeedStore to FORMAT/PARTITION my entire second drive so I could access all 80MB (instead of the 60MB using only 1024). But I did determine that my drive worked by formatting it via my BIOS, and then partitioning it with FDISK first. Your C: disk is always the bootable partition on the first drive. I believe that how the rest of the drives get allocated if a function of whether or not you're using device drivers, or DOS drivers, and the version of DOS you are using. Under DOS 3.2, drive 1 is always C:, and drive 2 is always D:. DOS 3.2 doesn't support drive partitioning, you must use a partition manager (Disk Manager, SpeedStore, etc). These extra partitions get allocated IN THE ORDER THEY APPEAR IN YOUR CONFIG.SYS FILE. I can't emphasize that enough! If you have a RAMDISK driver before your disk partitioning driver, then your RAMDISK becomes E:, and your partitions start with F:. Under DOS 3.3, DOS loads enough device drivers during cold start to support your partitioned drives sequentially. So your first drive is always C:, any extra partitions on the first drive come next, followed by the second drive, and any extra partitions on it as well. Lastly come any extra device drivers you load in CONFIG.SYS (like a RAMDISK). Yes, adding a new disk might shift around the logical drive names you were used to. Then again, depending on the version of DOS you are running, it might not. Right now, on my system, C: is the DOS PRIMARY, D: is the EXTENDED on the same drive. E: is a SpeedStore partition on the first drive (cylinders 1023 -> 1165). F:, G:, and H: are also SpeedStore partitions on my second drive (all 26MB partitions, it was easy to do it that way.) |> As you can see, I have got a lot of bits and pieces, but haven't |> managed to piece them together coherently enough to form the picture. |> I might be the only one who doesn't understand this, but if there's |> enough interest I'll post a summary. Good luck with your configuration. I hope all of this is clear. If not, let me know, or post another followup, and we'll try again. Your installation should be easier than mine because your disks both have <= 1024 cylinders, and shouldn't need extra device drivers like mine did. ================================================================= Kevin J. Cummings Prime Computer Inc. 20 Briarwood Road 500 Old Connecticut Path Framingham, Mass. Framingham, Mass. InterNet: cummings@primerd.Prime.COM UUCP: {uunet, csnet-relay}!primerd.Prime.COM!cummings Std. Disclaimer: "Mr. McKittrick, after careful consideration, I've come to the conclusion that your new defense system SUCKS..." -- War Games =================================================================
davel@booboo.SanDiego.NCR.COM (David Lord) (02/15/91)
I couldn't find the original article, but having just gone through this I'd like to add a few comments. First of all, in retrospective I think that it would have been well worth the cost of paying someone to install the drive. The process should be fairly straight forward but when something goes wrong it's a real pain to solve. If you are going to install a second drive yourself you really should have the documentation for the controller and BOTH drives. You will need to Know how to set the Disk Select switches and how to remove the termination resistor from one drive (usually done with a bank of switches). These drives come from the factory set to Disk Select 1 and with the resistor installed. In article <1991Feb13.180633@hammer.Prime.COM| cummings@hammer.Prime.COM (Kevin Cummings) writes: |In article <1122@applix.com>, jimr@applix.com (Jim Rouleau [ext 256]) writes: |OK, these are both ST506/ST412 interface drives. (MFM to some.) ||> The controller cable I'm using has the card connector, some straight ||> cable, connector '1', a twisted section, and finally connector '2'. |Hmm, I replaced the twisted cable with a straight through cable. I then |strapped each drive so that it worked. Remember to hook up the data cables |too. B^) And since you can boot either drive independently, I'll assume |you're getting the cables plugged in right. Are your edge card connectors |keyed? Especially '2'? This is the daisy chain cable. The drive at the end will be C:, the one in the middle will be D:. Remove the termination resistor from D:. If you're using twisted cable than BOTH drives must be Disk Select 2. If you're using straight through cable than C: is Disk Select 1 and D: is Disk Select 2. ||> What makes a drive first or second and how does the machine ||> distinguish them? Is is just the data cable or does the controller ||> cable play too? (Does anyone know 'why the twist'? I,ve heard ||> "hard drive cables are different than floppy cables", but isn't ||> the twist the only difference?) What about the terminating resistors? ||> Do I want the first physical drive on connector '1' or '2'? Used to be that straight through cables were used on hard drives, now twist cables are commonly used on both. For the data cables (the two narrow ribbon cables) connector 1 goes to C:, 2 goes to D:. Make sure the colored edge of the cables goes to pin 1 on all connectors (the connectors on the controller may not be keyed to prevent them from being put in the wrong way). ||> Another thing, what about the partitions? Right now I've got a ||> bootable partition on each drive. Will DOS be nice and allow me ||> to change the logical drive of the second physical drive so that ||> if the last logical drive of the Micropolis if E> and I cd to ||> F> then I will be accessing the Miniscribe? Or do I have to change ||> something first, while I can still access each drive as the first? I don't know, I run DOS 4.01 so I only have one partition on each disk. |Here is where I think you are getting into trouble. I had some problems |partitioning my second hard drive. What works is: Create only an EXTENDED |DOS PARTITION on the second drive. Don't create a PRIMARY (bootable) DOS |PARTITION. I found out the hard way that you can't access any bootable |partitions except the one you booted from! Actually, because my second I didn't have this problem with DOS 4.01. Both my drive have a primary partition. Dos does complain about the disk at boot time until I got it partitioned. And of course you have to low-level format it before you partition it. Good Luck.
jimr@applix.com (Jim Rouleau [ext 256]) (02/20/91)
I got about a dozen responses, thanks to all of you who took the
time to do so. I resolved my problem, which turned out that I was
indeed using a set of floppy cables. When I changed them everything
fell together very nicely.
From the responses I will attempt a summary. Anything after a
>> is stuff that was submitted but, although I'm not sure about it,
I'll include it anyway.
Disclaimer: I haven't verified all of this information, and of
course there may be differences among machines, controllers and drives.
Feel free to use any of this information in any way you please, but
if somthing goes wrong don't blame me.
Let's start with that cable. Both the floppy cable and the hard
drive (controller) cable are 34 wire ribbons. For hard drives,
5 wires (6 thru 10) are twisted and for floppies, 7 wires (10 thru 16)
are twisted. What these twists do is muck with the drive select lines.
As far I as I know, the following applies only to hard drives. (but
that's only because I haven't has to deal with floppy drives ... yet).
>> At Controller Connector 1 Connector 2
>> -------------- ----------- -----------
>> Select line 1 Select line 1 Select line 4
>> Select line 2 Select line 2 Select line 3
>> Select line 3 Select line 3 Select line 2
>> Select line 4 Select line 4 Select line 1
Note: Many hard drives (meaning MFM and RLL) have four drive
select settings although most drive controllers support only
two hard drives. The bios supports two hard drives. Make sure
the settings are correct for both drives.
It seems that what the controller expects to find is drive 1,
then drive 2 but, perhaps historically ... maybe the drive
selects on some drives couldnt be changed ... the twist allowed
a way to change the drive select without physically changing
a switch on the drive. So if the drive is configured as drive
2 but put after a twist then it will be seen as drive 1 and
if it is configured as drive 1 then after a twist it will act
as drive 2. When I realised what was happening here, it all
made good sense ... sort of like (-1)(-1) = 1.
Some submitters said the first drive must go in the middle, some
said it must go on the end. What I found is: it doesn't matter!
What is important is not which if first physically, but 'logically'
You don't even need a twisted cable. Use one of the following:
connector select
drive 1 1 1 twisted cable
drive 2 2 1
connector select
drive 1 2 2 twisted cable
drive 2 1 2
connector select
drive 1 1 1 straight cable
drive 2 2 2
connector select
drive 1 2 1 straight cable
drive 2 1 2
There is also the 20 pin data cable, but you need 1 for each drive
and they are identical. Just be sure that connector 1 on the card
goes to the first drive and connector 2 goes to the second drive.
Also ensure that wire 1 on the cable (with a colored stripe) gets
connected to pin 1 on the connectors. Most of the drives are
'keyed' with a slot on the connector and a plastic tab in the plug
to prevent you from inserting them the wrong way. These keys are
removable (unless they,ve been glued!) if you need to change the
connector around. The card and the drive are also usually marked
as to which is pin 1.
Finally there is the termination resistor. There should be 1 and
only 1 termination resistor in the system and that should be on
the drive that is at the end of the controller cable. If you leave
the resistors on all the drives everything will still work, but
you may be risking some future overheating problems.
That should take care of the hardware. The partitioning issues
were not nearly as clear. There are a lot of programs around
to handle these things (Ontrack disk manager, SpeedStor) and
they have ways of doing things like marking a partition as
theirs to get around the 32Meg limitation before DOS 4.X.
What seemed to be the cleanest and most agreed on was that
there should be no bootable partition on the second drive. If
there is, that should be changed to 'usable' but not bootable
before the hookup is made. Responses ranged from ' Otherwise
you will get CEF on 1st one and DGH on the 2nd one.' to 'I
found out the hard way that you can't access any bootable
partitions except the one you booted from!' My personal
experience was that 'C' became partition 1 drive 1, 'D' is
partition 1 drive 2, 'E' and 'F' are partitions 2 & 3
respectively on drive 1. I may be able this change this with
Ontrack or the like, but I think I'd prefer to leave things
alone. After everything was up and running, FDISK allowed me
to select each drive and partition as I liked, with the
32Meg restriction since I use DOS 3.3.
Miscellaneous notes: (as submitted)
If you want more than two hard drives, you need a special drive
controller and special software. One good example is any SCSI host adapter.
If you want to boot from 2 or more partitions (you have 2 or more OS),
try 'BOOTMENU' software. This freeware can manage 3 bootable partitions
on your C: drive, and you can select which partition you boot at power on
or reset time. I have 3 bootable partitions on my c: drive, DOS 3.31,
DOS 4.0, and OS/2 1.2 (and one data partition). One draw back is; if you
boot from one partition, you can't access other boot partition.
If you want to boot off of either drive directly I've heard of - but
have not used - a program alled "bootany.*" that's available from the
simtel archives.
I've even gotten gutsy and tried a MFM with an RLL. (worked but
supposedly not very reliable).
Personally, I'd make a 2-3 Mb partition at the beginning of the
boot drive to store the DOS or OS/2 (whatever). This way, it makes it
easier for you to upgrade to the next version w/o redoing the whole drive.
If your config.sys has a last drive command (like there is with dos 4.0),
you may have to change the last drive to a letter beyond what you
would get when you add the second hard drive.
I would recommend that you back up and everything first!
Finally, I must pass on the following request:
>From uunet!WISCSSC.BITNET!LENG Fri Feb 15 05:22:56 1991
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>By the way, can you kind enough to post a help message on the USENET for me?
>I want to know the jumper setting for Micropolis 1325 MFM 71mb hard drive.
>Now I can read the USENET but can't post. Thanks in advance.
> Leng@sscb.ssc.wisc.edu
which is ok by me, since the Micropolis drive I'm using is a 1325 !!