gwoho@nntp-server.caltech.edu (g liu) (02/12/91)
how do i change the interleave on an ide drive? ordinary interleaver programs, of course, cant do it. they cant do scsi either, but i know its possable on scsi, because i've done it. is it also possable on ide? also how do i add a block to the block substitution table? how do i low level format it? (a lot of programs think that they low level format it, but they actually dont) thank you in advance. gwoho liu.
timd@hotwheel.dell.com (Tim Deagan) (02/12/91)
In article <1991Feb11.205602.6901@nntp-server.caltech.edu>, gwoho@nntp-server.caltech.edu (g liu) writes: > how do i change the interleave on an ide drive? ordinary interleaver > programs, of course, cant do it. they cant do scsi either, but i > know its possable on scsi, because i've done it. > is it also possable on ide? > also how do i add a block to the block substitution table? > how do i low level format it? (a lot of programs think that they low > level format it, but they actually dont) > thank you in advance. > gwoho liu. The best answer is YOU DON'T! Definetly don't low-level your IDE drive. Seagate and Conner won't even guarantee they can do it at the factory, if you manage to do it yourself you'll just end up with a very expensive paper weight. As far as the interleave, it's set for the drive. Changing it won't increase performance, if you change it from 3:1 to 1:1 or 2:1 you'll end up degrading performance by requiring the drive to make an entire pass around the cylinder to get to the next sector. IDE's is what they is and they ain't what they ain't. :-) ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------"Wake up! Wake up!" - Spike Lee --------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Rev. Tim Deagan timd@hotwheel.dell.com timd@twaddle.dell.com
quimby@madoka.its.rpi.edu (Tom Stewart) (02/13/91)
timd@hotwheel.dell.com (Tim Deagan) writes: > The best answer is YOU DON'T! Definetly don't low-level your > IDE drive. Seagate and Conner won't even guarantee they can do > it at the factory, if you manage to do it yourself you'll just > end up with a very expensive paper weight. As far as the interleave, > it's set for the drive. Changing it won't increase performance, if > you change it from 3:1 to 1:1 or 2:1 you'll end up degrading > performance by requiring the drive to make an entire pass around > the cylinder to get to the next sector. IDE's is what they is and > they ain't what they ain't. :-) Sooner or later, many IDE's will either need re-low-leveling, or replacement. I, for one, would rather re-format. The new version of Seagate's Disk Manager (4.02?) is supposed to allow formatting IDE's, but I haven't tried it yet. Here are a couple of valid reason's why low-level is needed: 1. 'Minor' crash, causing loss of data and format. 2. User accidentally or intentionally runs a low-level format program. (Trojan horse, confused user, upset employee, etc) 3. After 5-10 years, the format sometimes is "lost". (Maybe some of the newer drives will actually last this long.) Quimby (mailer disfunctional, replies to: quimby@mts.rpi.edu, quimby@rpitsmts.bitnet)
sigma@jec302.its.rpi.edu (Kevin J Martin) (02/14/91)
quimby@madoka.its.rpi.edu (Tom Stewart) writes: >Sooner or later, many IDE's will either need re-low-leveling, or >replacement. I, for one, would rather re-format. The new version >of Seagate's Disk Manager (4.02?) is supposed to allow formatting >IDE's, but I haven't tried it yet. > I've seen Version 4.3 of Disk Manager for RLL drives, but not really used it. I'm very concerned about the question of reformatting IDE drives, however - I'm not too pleased to hear that if something goes wrong, Conner is going to say, "Sorry, you're screwed." Can anyone shed more light on this problem? -- Kevin Martin sigma@rpi.edu
KKEYTE@ESOC.BITNET (Karl Keyte) (02/16/91)
First of all, take a full backup of your drive, so that if you _do_ screw up, you won't be in tears! Secondly, get a copy of HDTEST (I think it's called) from the Simtel archives. This lets you change your interleave. Karl
huis@testeng1.misemi (Stephen Hui) (02/16/91)
You can do a low level format on IDE drive with the right software. I got a DiskManager 4.3 for SEAGATE drive, which allow me to low level format my ST-157A. However, IDE is almost the same as RLL drive and interleave is set to 1:1 already. If you change the interleave factor then all you will get is a poorer Xfer rate drive. Also, all IDE drives are pre-low level formatted by the maker with interleave 1:1, that's why nobody would do a low level format. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Stephen Hui uunet!mitel!testeng1!huis Mitel Corporation Tel: (613) 592-5660 X4959 Kanata, Ontario, CANADA Fax: (613) 592-4784
wood@Software.Mitel.COM (Dale Wood) (02/16/91)
In article <6556@testeng1.misemi> huis@testeng1.misemi (Stephen Hui) writes: > You can do a low level format on IDE drive with the right software. > I got a DiskManager 4.3 for SEAGATE drive, which allow me to low level format > my ST-157A. DO NOT LOW LEVEL FORMAT YOUR IDE DRIVE!!!! I have a SEAGATE 1144 that looks real nice sitting in a box ready for return to dealer. The dealer suggested that I take the lattest release of Disk Manager 4.3 and let it install my drive. It let me do a low level format of the disk (error in communication with dealer) and since then the drive will not boot my system. After phone calls with seagate, it was determined that the low level format has disstroyed the bad sector map in the disk (notice how there is no bad sector list on the IDE drives ) Just so happens (I guess) that one of the bad sectors in my drive was an important one :-) However, to take some of the scare out; I also have an older IDE dirve that I did a low level format on and it still works fine. (But never again will I do that) ...Dale Wood wood@Mitel.Software.COM
mamos@uafhp.uark.edu (Mark _E_ Amos) (02/17/91)
wood@Software.Mitel.COM (Dale Wood) writes: >After phone calls with seagate, it was determined that the low level format >has disstroyed the bad sector map in the disk (notice how there is no bad >sector list on the IDE drives ) Just so happens (I guess) that one of the bad >sectors in my drive was an important one :-) Just a note which might be of interest: Last summer I put together 16 AT class machines with MiniScribe 3.5" 40Meg IDE drives, and every one of them came with a bad sector map: 2 decals (1 presumably to stick on the drive) AND a dot matrix printout of the bad sector test results - apparently a report sheet from the test program itself... I mentioned this because all this hulabuloo over IDE drives is getting rather confusing, and after talking to Miniscribe about the drives I worked with, I have come to the (obvious?) conclusion that IDE drives differ widely between manufacturers. I know hard drives have always differed between makers, but what I mean is the core implementation and design of the actual IDE board itself, in addition to the mechanical differences. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I understand EVERYTHING electronically is INTEGRATED into the drive itself, with the exception of the "glue" chips (count 'em on one hand) that buffer the PC bus. To me, this means the manufacturer can do almost anything they want to implement the actual controller. Further, to say "My motherboard has a built in IDE controller" would be a bad misnomer - more correct is "My mother- board has a built in IDE drive interface (less than 10 standard logic parts). The conclusion I have for all this is it makes a BIG difference who you get your IDE drive from as to whether or not you can low-level format, and how reliable the thing is generally... For instance, I have heard alot of complaints about Seagate IDEs, and I personally have experience with Miniscribe and their hot running, low MTBF IDE drive; I own a Conner 3184 82Meg, however, and it is the fastest, quetiest, coolest running hard drive I have seen on a PC (this one is a 386-25), and I have had no trouble whatever from it. In other words, if I were going to buy another IDE, it would be a Conner. Period. Just my observations. Please correct if you have seen otherwise. ============================================================================== Mark _E_ Amos | University of Arkansas Computer Science Engineering mamos@uafhp.uark.edu | mea1@engr.uark.edu | (emphasise the Computer Engineering please) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ "Man's mind, when stretched to a new idea, never goes back to its original dimension." -Oliver Wendell Holmes ==============================================================================
leoh@hardy.hdw.csd.harris.com (Leo Hinds) (02/17/91)
In article <WOOD.91Feb15191558@wood.Software.Mitel.COM> wood@Software.Mitel.COM (Dale Wood) writes: > DO NOT LOW LEVEL FORMAT YOUR IDE DRIVE!!!! I have a SEAGATE 1144 that I have seen this "warning" many times & understand why, *but* what specifically about an ide makes it immune to the problems seen by many other drives that periodically benefit from the likes of spinrite to "re-align" drifted heads (or something to that effect)? And what are we poor souls to do in that case? ... I am not looking @ modifying the interleave, but I do need a way to test/reformat non destructively a non-new drive (that is currently displaying errors) normally corrected with spinrite. leoh@hdw.csd.harris.com Leo Hinds (305)973-5229 Gfx ... gfx ... :-) whfg orpnhfr V "ebg"grq zl fvtangher svyr lbh guvax V nz n creireg ?!!!!!!? ... znlor arkg gvzr
scott@blueeyes.kines.uiuc.edu (scott) (02/19/91)
In article <6556@testeng1.misemi> huis@testeng1.UUCP () writes: > > You can do a low level format on IDE drive with the right software. >I got a DiskManager 4.3 for SEAGATE drive, which allow me to low level format >my ST-157A. However, IDE is almost the same as RLL drive and interleave is set >to 1:1 already. If you change the interleave factor then all you will get is >a poorer Xfer rate drive. Also, all IDE drives are pre-low level formatted >by the maker with interleave 1:1, that's why nobody would do a low level >format. This appears to be based on the assumption that a single low-level format lasts forever, or at least as long as the disk drive is alive. Not true - that's why we need programs like SpinRite which compensate for "drift" in the alignment of the read/write heads that occurs as the drive ages. Also, the formatting information "fades" with time, and needs to be refreshed periodically, again with a low-level format. That's why EVERYBODY should be able to do a low-level format on their drive. The only exception would be if the controller in the IDE drive automatically detected and corrected drift and other LL formatting problems. It's good that Disk Manager will do the job. Does anyone know if SpinRite II can handle IDE drives? -- Scott Coleman tmkk@uiuc.edu "Unisys has demonstrated the power of two. That's their stock price today." - Scott McNealy on the history of mergers in the computer industry.
mamos@uafhp.uark.edu (Mark _E_ Amos) (02/19/91)
leoh@hardy.hdw.csd.harris.com (Leo Hinds) writes: >And what are we poor souls to do in that case? ... I am not looking @ >modifying the interleave, but I do need a way to test/reformat non >destructively a non-new drive (that is currently displaying errors) normally >corrected with spinrite. > Use Norton Utilities 5.0 CALIBRAT.EXE - it seems to do much the same function as Spinrite, but works on IDE drives (mine anyway). Try it - Norton Utilities should be bundled with DOS as far as I'm concerned... ============================================================================== Mark _E_ Amos | University of Arkansas Computer Science Engineering mamos@uafhp.uark.edu | mea1@engr.uark.edu | (emphasise the Computer Engineering please) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ "Man's mind, when stretched to a new idea, never goes back to its original dimension." -Oliver Wendell Holmes ==============================================================================
gwoho@nntp-server.caltech.edu (g liu) (02/19/91)
mamos@uafhp.uark.edu (Mark _E_ Amos) writes: >leoh@hardy.hdw.csd.harris.com (Leo Hinds) writes: >>And what are we poor souls to do in that case? ... I am not looking @ >>modifying the interleave, but I do need a way to test/reformat non >>destructively a non-new drive (that is currently displaying errors) normally >>corrected with spinrite. >> > Use Norton Utilities 5.0 CALIBRAT.EXE - it seems to do much the same function ***** thats right, it seems to. in fact, it doesn't. it does not do any low level on an ide drive. it does not even know the proper geometry of the drive, so how could it do anything like adjust interleave, etc? maybe it does the same thing as spinrite, which is pretend to do a llformat and interleave. in fact, norton calibrat does not do either to an ide. all it does is a media analysis to see if the drive has undetected bad spots. > as Spinrite, but works on IDE drives (mine anyway). Try it - Norton Utilities > should be bundled with DOS as far as I'm concerned... >============================================================================== > Mark _E_ Amos | University of Arkansas Computer Science Engineering > mamos@uafhp.uark.edu | > mea1@engr.uark.edu | (emphasise the Computer Engineering please) >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >"Man's mind, when stretched to a new idea, never goes back to its original > dimension." -Oliver Wendell Holmes >==============================================================================
hamid@uop.edu (Hamid) (02/21/91)
quimby@madoka.its.rpi.edu (Tom Stewart) writes: >timd@hotwheel.dell.com (Tim Deagan) writes: >> The best answer is YOU DON'T! Definetly don't low-level your >> IDE drive. Seagate and Conner won't even guarantee they can do I've no problem when making low-level format to my WD Cavier IDE HD. I got the formater from Gateway 2000 since I bought my system from them. -- +---------------------------------+----------------------------------+ | Mohd H. Misnan | UUCP: {uunet!...}!uop!mhm!hamid | | University Of The Pacific | INET: hmisnan@madvax.uop.edu | | Stockton, CA 95204 | an605@po.cwru.edu | | | hamid@uop.edu | +---------------------------------+----------------------------------+