bal@drutx.ATT.COM (LesebergB) (03/10/91)
Has anyone developed anything for the HP IIP so it can do true gray scale graphics (whether 16, 64, or 256 scale) without dithering ? I thought the HP Series II had such a product, but haven't seen one for the IIP. I've seen some Postscript cartridges, but don't believe they have any gray scale capabilities, but then I'm new to this desktop publishing stuff. Thanks ! -- Brad Leseberg | AT&T Bell Labs | !att!drutx!bal (303) 538-4964 | Denver, CO | bal@drutx.att.com
andrewsh@lonex.radc.af.mil (Harold G. Andrews II) (03/11/91)
In article <7784@drutx.ATT.COM> bal@drutx.ATT.COM (LesebergB) writes: >Has anyone developed anything for the HP IIP so it can do >true gray scale graphics (whether 16, 64, or 256 scale) without >dithering ? I thought the HP Series II had such a product, but >haven't seen one for the IIP. I've seen some Postscript cartridges, >but don't believe they have any gray scale capabilities, but then >I'm new to this desktop publishing stuff. Thanks ! >-- >Brad Leseberg | AT&T Bell Labs | !att!drutx!bal >(303) 538-4964 | Denver, CO | bal@drutx.att.com I could be wrong (and I expect y'all out there will let me know if I am) but, as far as I know, laser printers are incapable of gray scale images for much the same reason that photo-copiers are incapable of reproducing gray scale images. There is no way to control the color of the toner deposited onto the page. It is either there or it isn't. There is no middle ground. There may be some new techniques out there with which I am unfamiliar. All of the HP laser jets, though, are not capable of a partial deposit of toner onto the page. Have a good day... -Andy ******************************************************************************* * Harold G. "Andy" Andrews II, 1Lt, USAF * "Many the man whose punctuality * * andrewsh@lonex.radc.af.mil * serves only to warm his chair." * * Rome Laboratory/IRRE * * * Griffiss AFB, NY 13441-5700 * - M. Kabrisky * * (315) 330-7788 (AVN Prfx 587) * (Not an official USAF viewpoint) * *******************************************************************************
plim@hpsgwp.sgp.hp.com (Peter Lim) (03/12/91)
/ andrewsh@lonex.radc.af.mil (Harold G. Andrews II) / 10:44 pm Mar 11, 1991 / writes: > In article <7784@drutx.ATT.COM> bal@drutx.ATT.COM (LesebergB) writes: > >Has anyone developed anything for the HP IIP so it can do > >true gray scale graphics (whether 16, 64, or 256 scale) without > >dithering ? I thought the HP Series II had such a product, but > >haven't seen one for the IIP. I've seen some Postscript cartridges, > >but don't believe they have any gray scale capabilities, but then > >I'm new to this desktop publishing stuff. Thanks ! > >-- > >Brad Leseberg | AT&T Bell Labs | !att!drutx!bal > >(303) 538-4964 | Denver, CO | bal@drutx.att.com > > > I could be wrong (and I expect y'all out there will let me know if I > am) but, as far as I know, laser printers are incapable of gray scale images > for much the same reason that photo-copiers are incapable of reproducing > gray scale images. There is no way to control the color of the toner > deposited > onto the page. It is either there or it isn't. There is no middle ground. > There may be some new techniques out there with which I am unfamiliar. All > of the HP laser jets, though, are not capable of a partial deposit of toner > onto the page. > NOT TRUE MAN. It should be rephrased as "All HP and compatible (which is almost all laserjets) laserjets before the series III.". The series III has Resolution Enhancement Technology which essentially controls the size of individual dot deposited on the paper. This is what essentially gray scale is about. Actually some third party products connected to the LaserJet II's video port allows you to do something similar. Can't remember the name of any of these products though. These products work only with the Series II, not anything else (forget about the IIP, IID etc.). > Have a good day... > Same to you :-). Regards, . .. ... .- -> -->## Life is fast enough as it is ........ Peter Lim. ## .... DON'T PUSH IT !! >>>-------, ########################################### : E-mail: plim@hpsgwg.HP.COM Snail-mail: Hewlett Packard Singapore, : Tel: (065)-279-2289 (ICDS, ICS) | Telnet: 520-2289 1150 Depot Road, __\@/__ Singapore 0410. SPLAT ! #include <standard_disclaimer.hpp>
bsherman@mthvax.cs.miami.edu (Bob Sherman) (03/12/91)
In <1991Mar11.144450.18991@lonex.radc.af.mil> andrewsh@lonex.radc.af.mil (Harold G. Andrews II) writes: >In article <7784@drutx.ATT.COM> bal@drutx.ATT.COM (LesebergB) writes: >>Has anyone developed anything for the HP IIP so it can do >>true gray scale graphics (whether 16, 64, or 256 scale) without >>dithering ? I thought the HP Series II had such a product, but >>haven't seen one for the IIP. I've seen some Postscript cartridges, >>but don't believe they have any gray scale capabilities, but then >>I'm new to this desktop publishing stuff. Thanks ! >>-- > I could be wrong (and I expect y'all out there will let me know if I >am) but, as far as I know, laser printers are incapable of gray scale images >for much the same reason that photo-copiers are incapable of reproducing >gray scale images. There is no way to control the color of the toner deposited >onto the page. It is either there or it isn't. There is no middle ground. >There may be some new techniques out there with which I am unfamiliar. All >of the HP laser jets, though, are not capable of a partial deposit of toner >onto the page. Well, I hate to argue with anyone, however as I type this I am looking at a printout of a digitized photograph of a cat that I printed on a HP IIP from a program called Paintworks Gold on the Apple II GS, and it has 16 gray scales in it. The laser driver used for this was Harmonie from Vitesse, and it allows you to choose from 1 to 16 gray scales before you print.. So if it is done in software or hardware, I do not know, but if the bottom line is the finished result, then yes it can be done.. -- bsherman@mthvax.cs.miami.edu | | MCI MAIL:BSHERMAN
andrewsh@lonex.radc.af.mil (Harold G. Andrews II) (03/13/91)
In article <1991Mar12.021020.18894@mthvax.cs.miami.edu> bsherman@mthvax.cs.miami.edu (Bob Sherman) writes: >In <1991Mar11.144450.18991@lonex.radc.af.mil> andrewsh@lonex.radc.af.mil (Harold G. Andrews II) writes: > >>In article <7784@drutx.ATT.COM> bal@drutx.ATT.COM (LesebergB) writes: >>> [Looking for ways to do grayscale on an HP IIP] > >>[My response. Gray scale not possible.] > >Well, I hate to argue with anyone, however as I type this I am looking at >a printout of a digitized photograph of a cat that I printed on a HP IIP >from a program called Paintworks Gold on the Apple II GS, and it has >16 gray scales in it. The laser driver used for this was Harmonie from >Vitesse, and it allows you to choose from 1 to 16 gray scales before >you print.. So if it is done in software or hardware, I do not know, but >if the bottom line is the finished result, then yes it can be done.. > >-- > bsherman@mthvax.cs.miami.edu | | MCI MAIL:BSHERMAN Well, I hate to argue with you, but what you have in front of you is not gray scale. You have something using halftones. There is a difference. Using halftones, you could get something to look roughly like a newspaper image. Laser printers cannot vary the amount of toner deposited at a point on the page. What they can do is create the illusion of different shades of gray by varying different properties of the dot spacing and overlaying different "screens" on the image. The software may ask for the number of grayscales, but all it does is produce a bitmaped overlay to create the illusion of grayscale. Have a good day... -Andy ******************************************************************************* * Harold G. "Andy" Andrews II, 1Lt, USAF * "Many the man whose punctuality * * andrewsh@lonex.radc.af.mil * serves only to warm his chair." * * Rome Laboratory/IRRE * * * Griffiss AFB, NY 13441-5700 * - M. Kabrisky * * (315) 330-7788 (AVN Prfx 587) * (Not an official USAF viewpoint) * *******************************************************************************
andrewsh@lonex.radc.af.mil (Harold G. Andrews II) (03/13/91)
In article <3370015@hpsgwp.sgp.hp.com> plim@hpsgwp.sgp.hp.com (Peter Lim) writes: > >> In article <7784@drutx.ATT.COM> bal@drutx.ATT.COM (LesebergB) writes: >> >[... Looking for grayscale on an HP IIP...] >> >>[...My response. Not possile...] >> >NOT TRUE MAN. It should be rephrased as "All HP and compatible (which is >almost all laserjets) laserjets before the series III.". The series III >has Resolution Enhancement Technology which essentially controls the >size of individual dot deposited on the paper. This is what essentially >gray scale is about. > >Actually some third party products connected to the LaserJet II's video >port allows you to do something similar. Can't remember the name of >any of these products though. These products work only with the Series II, >not anything else (forget about the IIP, IID etc.). > I just responded to another individual on the comp.graphics news group with other objections. The series III's Resolution Enhancement Technology has the ability to change to dot pitch, primarily to allow variable dot pitches to help reduce jaggies. This does not address the problem of grayscale. Grayscale images involve varying the amount of toner deposited onto the paper. Laser printers cannot, at this time, do that. What they can do, through the use of dithering and halftones is give the appearance of grayscale. When you boil it down, though, laser printers are incapable of producing true grayscale images. The other products you are thinking about, I believe are add on boards for both an ISA bus, of in some instances for the laser printers themselves, which improves the regular 300dpi resolution to somewhere close to 1000dpi. Using these products, you can tightly pack the dots, so it is easier to produce the illusion of grayscale. Have a good day... >> >Same to you :-). > > >Regards, Peter Lim. -Andy ******************************************************************************* * Harold G. "Andy" Andrews II, 1Lt, USAF * "Many the man whose punctuality * * andrewsh@lonex.radc.af.mil * serves only to warm his chair." * * Rome Laboratory/IRRE * * * Griffiss AFB, NY 13441-5700 * - M. Kabrisky * * (315) 330-7788 (AVN Prfx 587) * (Not an official USAF viewpoint) * *******************************************************************************
plim@hpsgwp.sgp.hp.com (Peter Lim) (03/13/91)
/ andrewsh@lonex.radc.af.mil (Harold G. Andrews II) / 12:30 am Mar 13, 1991 / writes: > I just responded to another individual on the comp.graphics news group with > other objections. The series III's Resolution Enhancement Technology has > the ability to change to dot pitch, primarily to allow variable dot pitches > to help reduce jaggies. This does not address the problem of grayscale. > Reducing jaggies is the main marketing point of the LJ III, it brings attention to something that the masses can see clearly. That is why most people associate the LJ III RET with reducing jaggies. But the RET essentially address "grayscale" problem as best as we can now. It is capable of giving shades by changing the dot size without compromising resolution (as done in dithering). So, as far as your eyes can tell, this looks like shades of gray at 300 dpi. > Grayscale images involve varying the amount of toner deposited onto the paper. > Laser printers cannot, at this time, do that. What they can do, through > the use of dithering and halftones is give the appearance of grayscale. > When you boil it down, though, laser printers are incapable of producing > true grayscale images. > But of course if you are talking about really absolute grayscale as in the dot changing from black thru gray to white, then NO, LJ III can't do it and no other laser printer can do it either. The real gray scale actually requires varying of color (and not dot size or the amount of toner for that matter) --- like what you see on your color monitor. Gray is essentially a different color from black or white. This is what slipped my mind in my first posting. My appology. Regards, . .. ... .- -> -->## Life is fast enough as it is ........ Peter Lim. ## .... DON'T PUSH IT !! >>>-------, ########################################### : E-mail: plim@hpsgwg.HP.COM Snail-mail: Hewlett Packard Singapore, : Tel: (065)-279-2289 (ICDS, ICS) | Telnet: 520-2289 1150 Depot Road, __\@/__ Singapore 0410. SPLAT ! #include <standard_disclaimer.hpp>
pavlov@canisius.UUCP (Greg Pavlov) (03/16/91)
In article <1991Mar12.021020.18894@mthvax.cs.miami.edu>, bsherman@mthvax.cs.miami.edu (Bob Sherman) writes: > > Well, I hate to argue with anyone, however as I type this I am looking at > a printout of a digitized photograph of a cat that I printed on a HP IIP > ...and it has > 16 gray scales in it.... Unfortunately, those are not "gray scales". As the previous poster stated, the HPs generate single tone dots, period. greg pavlov, fstrf, amherst, ny pavlov@stewart.fstrf.org