dmason@digi.lonestar.org (David Mason) (05/25/91)
Yes, it's another one of those "help me pick a 'puter" posts.
I havent read these groups in a while so I need to get caught up on the
latest net.wisdom. I'm interested in a 386/33 or better with about
150-200 meg of hard disk, 4-8 meg of RAM, and super VGA. I'll want
to run Windows initially and later switch over to UNIX (looking at
ESIX now.) I've seen systems like this advertised at prices starting
around $3000, which sounds pretty good to me. My questions are:
1. Should I go ahead and get a 386/33 or wait for a 386/40 or 486sx?
Are they expected to have a lot more price/performance value?
Are they coming out soon?
2. How about the hard disk? From what I hear, IDE is cheaper, ESDI
is faster, and SCSI is the wave of the future. Is any of these
the clear winner? I've been leaning towards SCSI since you could
theoretically hook up a lot of other stuff to the bus, but I've
heard that standards (or the lack of them) are a problem.
I'm also interested in tape backup if it doesnt cost too much.
3. Video: I know the monitor is very important, but how about the
controller? Any hands down winners or losers I should know about?
4. Is mail order the best way to buy one? I want to go with name brand
quality standard components (rather than proprietary vendor stuff
that might have compatibility and performance problems.)
There are some places here where you tell them exactly what
components you want and they'll fit them to one of several motherboards
they carry. This approach sounds pretty good as long as I can get
good service. On the other hand, if mail order is the way to go, I'm
open to suggestions about who's got the best deal.
5. Any other advice will be very appreciated. If these questions have
already been answered in some archive data someplace, just point me
in the right direction. If anybody just bought a system they want
to rant and rave about or curse for all eternity, I'm all ears.
Thanks in advance! If I get a lot of email I'll summarize to the net.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Dave Mason Party on, dudes!
DSC Communications M/S 121
1000 Coit Rd, Plano TX 75075 The opinions expressed herein are
INET: dmason@digi.lonestar.org not necessarily mine or those of
UUCP: {uunet, texsun}!digi!dmason my employer.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------dmason@digi.lonestar.org (David Mason) (06/05/91)
For all interested: Here is a summary of respnses I got to my original post: > I havent read these groups in a while so I need to get caught up on the > latest net.wisdom. I'm interested in a 386/33 or better with about > 150-200 meg of hard disk, 4-8 meg of RAM, and super VGA. I'll want > to run Windows initially and later switch over to UNIX (looking at > ESIX now.) I've seen systems like this advertised at prices starting > around $3000, which sounds pretty good to me. My questions are: > > 1. Should I go ahead and get a 386/33 or wait for a 386/40 or 486sx? > Are they expected to have a lot more price/performance value? > Are they coming out soon? I. AMD is coming out with a 386, so that will lower prices in the next few months. I think they're the ones doing the 40mhz 386, too. I personally would avoid the 486 SX - sounds like a lot of marketting hype to me. Another thing - think about the EISA bus - do you want to run 32 bit graphics and disk controller cards in the nearish future? If so, you might want to wait 6 months until the EISA machines are more reasonably priced. II. 386-33 is nice but going out in a hurry. A white elephant. Am386-40 available NOW in quantity. Nice. Fast. A good deal. 486SX a lame duck if I ever saw one. No decent upgrade path and the 386-40 is faster (see this months Byte magazine cover story). 486-25 (and up) are my personal choices. Prices are dropping steadily. If you plan to get a math coprocessor then go with a full 486 instead, it is cheaper and faster and has the math unit built in. III. A 386/33 is a pretty good machine, and it's the best buy right now. You're better off buying one or two notches down from the top--you take a little less performance at a much lower price, plus you don't have as much chance for flaky hardware since you're not right on the "bleeding edge". 386/33 has been out for long enough that most of them are solid. IV. The 486SX is already out, and FWIW, it'll probably be just a little faster than a 386-33. However, if you're looking for one NOW, you'd probably be better off getting the 386-33. They're already tested, debugged, and known to work. V. You may want to hold off just a bit before purchasing a system, the 486SX promises to drive prices down. Interestingly it is supposedly faster than a 33 MHz 386 at running 32 bit software. Problem, most software is not 32 bit specific. DOS and Windows certainly are not. If you plan on using UNIX though, you may want to consider this factor since it is more than likely that whatever version of UNIX you purchase will be 32 bit software. > > 2. How about the hard disk? From what I hear, IDE is cheaper, ESDI > is faster, and SCSI is the wave of the future. Is any of these > the clear winner? I've been leaning towards SCSI since you could > theoretically hook up a lot of other stuff to the bus, but I've > heard that standards (or the lack of them) are a problem. > I'm also interested in tape backup if it doesnt cost too much. I. From what I hear - IDE is MFM compatible, but has some slight problems arising out of conflicts over how to add a second drive. A potential pitfall that someone can fill you in on (I think the June Comptuer Shopper has an article about it). SCSI can handle tape drives, CD-ROMs and more. EDSI and IDE are disk only. However, you need controlling software for tapes or CD-ROMs, which might be tough to get if you get a strange SCSI interface card. SCSI is the most flexible, hardware wise, but may be a problem software wise. EDSI is nothing special on speed anymore (used to be pretty fast, compared to MFM). II. IDE is nice. Simple. Fast. Cheap. Etc. -- Conner CP3204 212Mb is great. ESDI is FAST!!. Expensive. -- older standard may die off SCSI -- wave of future, very expanable. Pain in rear to set up. Does not follow standard MFM/RLL/ARLL disk controller procedures like most AT drives. Will require a controller with onboard ROM to manage it. I've had some conflicts in the past. However, the conflicts will probably be resolved as time continues and more and more software comes to recognize SCSI. Conner makes a nice SCSI variant of the CP3204. recommended HD makers -- Maxtor, Quantum, Prairie-Tek, Conner Micropolis (very good, $$$), CORE Fujitsu (5 yr warranty), Teac avoid -- older Seagate drives Swift series is OK (designed by Imprimis/CDC before Seagate bought them out) Maxtor Colorado (formerly Miniscribe) Kalok Kyocera (ok but low quality) III. IDE is the best bet for cheap disk. A couple 200Mb IDEs are better, and probably cheaper, than a single 330 ESDI. For a single drive, ESDI will generally be faster; if you put two or more on, SCSI is better. You're right about the SCSI advantage of multiple devices--if you want a good tape, maybe a CD ROM on down the line, etc., go SCSI. My choice today would be IDE for best price/performance, SCSI for expandability. IV.Well, you're correct here...IDE is cheaper, ESDI is the fastest of the three, and SCSI allows you to expand beyond 2 physical devices. I'd HIGHLY recommend forgetting about IDE for the time being for a couple of reasons: First off, I'm not entirely sure that Unix/Xenix supports IDE, and secondly, the largest IDE drive made now (I believe) is 120 meg. Stick with SCSI or ESDI. Either are good choices..... V. Don't buy any machines blindingl. Make sure that the version of UNIX you are considering works with the equipment you intend to buy. There are instances where a UNIX implementation has failed on 386 machines, with no name clones you are taking a BIG risk since you cannot obtain any certification whatsoever from the implementor of the UNIX package you are considering. IDE is fast enough. Coupled with a 33 MHz 386 or 486 it will do fine. SCSI is probably the wave of the future, more likely in its "SCSI-2" incarnation. Despite what manufacturers and hype would have you believe, you cannot install any SCSI device to any SCSI host adapter in the PC world. "SCSI-2" corrects that, however it has not taken off. Iterating, IDE drives are certainly fast enough to handle your everyday needs, including UNIX. > > 3. Video: I know the monitor is very important, but how about the > controller? Any hands down winners or losers I should know about? I. Pay attention to what people have to say about speed - some of these cards claim to be 16 bit, but actually operate in 8 bit modes, which is murder on speed. Others will fill you in on this. II. avoid cheap Taiwanese OEM boards they often use DAC's that are not rated to the Mhz at which they have to operate!!! (either that or they use DAC chips made by god knows who) In general I would take a Tseng 4000 board vs a T8900 board any time. They are faster and have much better hopes for future growth (it is a much better designed chipset). Boca Research VGA (1Mb) -- ok, but does not do VESA 800x600 72Hz Trident Impact III -- nice but I don't care for the T8900 chipset Diamond Speedstar -- NICE! My personal choice. The new Hi-Color Version can do 800x600x32768 A 65535 color variant is expected out by fall with IBM XGA emulation. Tussey/Swan Pallette Plus -- near identical to Speedstar, 2yr warranty not quit as fast, Swan is a GOOD dealer ATI -- good cards, older technology -- 8514/A Ultra is nice and fast but non-standard Cardinal -- like swan, are a good manufacturer for one of the smaller ones III. Just watch out for interlaced monitors and low refresh rates. Flicker will toast your brain if you're sensitive to it. IV. Paradise chipset or TSENG chipset are the best. Trident is not far behind. However, there are no hands down winners/losers. I personally recommend TSENG, however.....Faster video. V. No, there are not any "killer video cards." Unless of course you are willking to spend some serious money. $1000 can get you some TI 34010 based graphics cards which allow you to operate VGA and extra modes several times faster. They are useful for example if you want to run Windows in 1024x768 and any number of reasonable colors. Standard Video cards such as those from ATI and Paradise are just too slow in that scenario. "TI" happens to be Texas Instruments and 340x0 is a family of graphics processors it had developed. There is a 34020, in fact you can purchase a 34020 EISA based card, that would anihilate anything else on the market. Like I said, you can get a "lot" but you must pay for it. > > 4. Is mail order the best way to buy one? I want to go with name brand > quality standard components (rather than proprietary vendor stuff > that might have compatibility and performance problems.) > There are some places here where you tell them exactly what > components you want and they'll fit them to one of several motherboards > they carry. This approach sounds pretty good as long as I can get > good service. On the other hand, if mail order is the way to go, I'm > open to suggestions about who's got the best deal. I. I'd go mail order, unless you really, really, want someone in a store holding your hand (and with you paying through the nose for that priviledge). II. Mail order is the ONLY way to go. It will probably save enough money that even if you by some chance got shoddy equipment you could replace it with the money you saved. Some recommended dealers. Me. (I do have good prices and use name brand components) Swan. ** Gateway 2000. ** Northgate. (overpriced) III. It's OK as long as you pick one of the good houses. There are also a few chain outlets that have good prices on some components. You can usually save a lot by buying the major components (case, power supply, keyboard, monitor, motherboard, memory, disk/controller,...) and assembling the system yourself...if that doesn't scare you. It takes a few hours to put one together if you're familiar with the hardware or get someone who is to look over your shoulder. For mail order, last I heard Gateway 2000 had one of the best reps and had very good bang-for-buck systems. All this is my own opinion, of course...no connection to ISC, insert usual disclaimer, etc., etc. IV. If you're looking for a good solid machine and you want to go mail order, I'd highly suggest Dell Computers (formerly known as PCs Limited) out of Austin Texas. I don't have the 800 number, but call 800 information and they'll connect you. The tech support is second to none. They do make their own proprietary system, but I've found them to be 100% IBM Compatible. But they are EXPENSIVE!!!!! V. As far as companies, Gateway gives the most bang for the buck as well as having a name brand to go with it. Dell should be a serious contendor if you can afford a little more and maybe want a complete solution, they sell UNIX packages for their systems. Northgate is another good brand. Avoid companies like Compaq and IBM whose machines besides being overpriced use proprietary memory which costs about 8 times more than standard memory. > > 5. Any other advice will be very appreciated. If these questions have > already been answered in some archive data someplace, just point me > in the right direction. If anybody just bought a system they want > to rant and rave about or curse for all eternity, I'm all ears. I. Remember that no matter what you do, you're gonna wind up writing off the system to 100% depreciation in about 3 years. If you can live with this, then you'll feel better watching your computer loose value so rapidly. If you have a company that can depreciate the hardware as a business asset, then you are even better off. II. general tips -- put it together yourself, components are cheaper. For the miscellaneous equip -- Try National Computer Accessories, they have no warranties but I have yet to get a bad piece of equipment. They have AT I/O's for $13.99 and AT I/O, IDE & FDC for $29. They also have the best prices on Mice and Cables (Par/Serial). Novacor makes good motherboards. Syntax/Protek sells nice cases for reasonable prices. Nice tower units. Hokkins Systemation has some of the best Floppy pricing and Conner hard drive pricing (at least to dealers like myself). ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Dave Mason Party on, dudes! DSC Communications M/S 121 1000 Coit Rd, Plano TX 75075 The opinions expressed herein are INET: dmason@digi.lonestar.org not necessarily mine or those of UUCP: {uunet, texsun}!digi!dmason my employer. -----------------------------------------------------------------------