mig@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Meir) (05/15/91)
What printers give the best quality output at the most reasonable price? Should I get an ink jet or a laser? It seems that drivers may not be available for the newer printers to go with older software. And, if I go with a laser, will I have to make expensive upgrades? This is for a home, and shouldn't be tremendous or noisier than a dot matrix. What is a good, cheap laser printer, anyway, which I should be able to get drivers for for some time? * * * * * * * ======================= Meir Green * * * * * * * * ======================= mig@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu * * * * * * * ======================= N2JPG
PZ2@psuvm.psu.edu (David L. Phillips) (05/15/91)
For home use, the DeskJet is my choice. Most eyes cannot see the difference in print quality compared with laser...and it costs about a third as much. There are drivers aplenty for virtually every application.
calloway@hplvec.LVLD.HP.COM (Frank Calloway) (05/17/91)
I owned an HP DeskJet and now own an HP LaserJet IIP. The DeskJet was a very nice printer for the money, but I like the laser printer better because it uses "dry" instead of "wet" technology. The DeskJet deposits wet ink on the paper, which causes no problems when printing letters and such. If, however, you are printing graphics that contain large amounts of black, so much wet ink is deposited that the paper wrinkles quite a bit. Considering the reasonable cost of the DeskJet and the high quality of its output, I considered this a reasonable trade-off. But if printing high-quality graphics is important to you, you may want to keep the wrinkling in mind when choosing a printer. Frank Calloway
ksteele@epas.toronto.edu (Ken Steele) (05/20/91)
In response to Meir Green's question: There is no question that Laser printers offer superior print resolution, on less expensive paper stock. The printers themselves, however, are generally twice the price of the new HP DeskJet 500 (taking student discounts into account) and replacement cartridges are considerably more than the $19 for a DeskJet cartridge. So I believe that there is also no question that "the best printer FOR THE MONEY" is an inkjet. The DeskJet 500 is about a third the size of a laser, draws CONSIDERABLY less electricity, and offers much more trouble-free operation. And just the other day, I was reading an article on magnetic fields and possible connections to cancer. Now, granted, this whole subject is a little controversial, and I'm no expert, but the figures are quite astounding for laser printers and electric shavers, not to mention colour monitors. The conclusion: laser printers are not appropriate to the home environment. (I know, I know, many will disagree). I've found the DeskJet produces some remarkable output, with the right software, and I have only wished for a laser when preparing camera-ready copy for offset printing. (The DeskJet/PageMaker output looks just great in photocopies, but in offset printing the resolution seems to be a problem). Of course, if I owned a Laser printer, I'd want a full-fledged linotronic typesetter when it came to offset printing, anyway... As I've said before, the DeskJet 500's output, with Lazer paper and using Windows 3.0 and Adobe Type Manager, is truly astounding. You'd have to see it to believe it wasn't laser... Ken Steele University of Toronto [This space intentionally left blank.]
dlow@pollux.svale.hp.com (Danny Low) (05/20/91)
>What is a good, cheap laser printer, anyway, which I should be able to get >drivers for for some time? > * * * * * * * ======================= Meir Green Having used both laser printers and ink jets, I can say that a GOOD ink jet (e.g. HP Deskjet 500) will give you quality as good as any laser printer for half the price. Ink jets are paper sensitive so you may have to experiment to find a brand of paper that works well. The paper does get wrinkled if you do a lot of dense graphics. The best cheap laser printer is the HP IIP. HP laser printers are the standard that all other laser printers compete against. Everyone supports HP laser printers. There are more accessories (e.g. font cartridges) available for the HP laser printers than for all the others combined. There are HP laser printers clones that emulate to various degres an HP laser printer. They are usually cheaper. Just beware that the emulation on many of the clones is NOT good enough to pass muster in all cases. PC Magazine in their annual printer issues indicate how closely a HP Laserjet clone comes to fully emulating the Laserjet. Danny Low North America Personal Computer Division dlow@pollux.svale.hp.com HP4200/29 720-3622
johnl@iecc.cambridge.ma.us (John R. Levine) (05/22/91)
In article <5870043@pollux.svale.hp.com> you write: >>What is a good, cheap laser printer, anyway, which I should be able to get >>drivers for for some time? >Having used both laser printers and ink jets, I can say that a GOOD >ink jet (e.g. HP Deskjet 500) will give you quality as good as >any laser printer for half the price. Ink jets are paper sensitive ... This is entirely true, particularly the part about the paper. The only paper I could find that gave nice crisp results on my deskjet was cheap envelopes. I never found any 8.5 x 11 paper that didn't smudge a little, not even the expensive special printer paper. >The best cheap laser printer is the HP IIP. HP laser printers are the >standard that all other laser printers compete against. Everyone >supports HP laser printers. There are more accessories (e.g. >font cartridges) available for the HP laser printers than for >all the others combined. There are HP laser printers clones >that emulate to various degres an HP laser printer. They are usually >cheaper. Just beware that the emulation on many of the clones is >NOT good enough to pass muster in all cases. The IIP is a fine little printer, but I think you can do better. (Then again, I don't work for HP.) I have an IBM 4019e which has flawless HP emulation, both PCL which is the laser printer language and HPGL which is the pen plotter language. It is slightly faster, 6 PPM rather than 4, and has at least as many font cards, including equivalents for all of HP's cartridges as well as lots of foreign languages including Arabic and Hebrew. It has better paper handing options than the HP, such as a 500 sheet paper tray that snaps on underneath and an envelope feeder. It lets you feed paper straight through which is nice if you'r printing transparancies or heavy stock. (The IIP may do that, I haven't looked at one in detail.) It is cheaper to run, even though the toner cartridge costs over $100, since you only have to change it every 15,000 pages, not the typical 3000. I paid $925 after an IBM rebate last December, slightly less than a IIP cost. Regards, John Levine, johnl@iecc.cambridge.ma.us, {spdcc|ima|world}!iecc!johnl
amichiel@rodan.acs.syr.edu (Allen J Michielsen) (05/22/91)
In article <5870043@pollux.svale.hp.com> dlow@pollux.svale.hp.com (Danny Low) >>What is a good, cheap laser printer, anyway, which I should be able to get >>drivers for for some time? >> * * * * * * * ======================= Meir Green >Having used both laser printers and ink jets, I can say that a GOOD >ink jet (e.g. HP Deskjet 500) will give you quality as good as >any laser printer for half the price. >The best cheap laser printer is the HP IIP. HP laser printers are the >standard that all other laser printers compete against. Everyone You must either be blind or in HP sales (or both ?). The Deskjet 500 is a very good ink jet, but it is a ink jet. Anyone that can't identify/tell Deskjet 500 (or any other inkjet available today) from a good, cheap laser printer (like the IIp) is either blind or doesn't care. There is a difference, you can tell on ANY paper, the difference is fairly small, BOTH look very good. I love everybody going out of their way to recommend no name and clone laser printers for cheap lasers. The IIp is as good as ANY, in some cases, somewhat slower, but the support is great and parts/repair availability is second to none. Who the hell is going to be able to get parts, schematics, or do service on 'china-freds' laser printer in 5 years when it breaks. I can't even get most of the parts from apple to fix my apple laserwriter when it breaks. My service contract company must be losing their shirts, at $14 per month they have given me 2 new printers this year to replace broken ones they can't get a stupid latch of something for. I wouldn't consider anything other than a name brand like HP, and both the Deskjet 500 & IIP are good, and the IIp is better. al -- Al. Michielsen, Mechanical & Aerospace Engineering, Syracuse University InterNet: amichiel@rodan.acs.syr.edu amichiel@sunrise.acs.syr.edu Bitnet: AMICHIEL@SUNRISE
dahosek@biivax.dp.beckman.com (05/23/91)
Regarding the 300dpi Inkjet vs. laser printer debate, for the
sort of work I do (largely TeX==much bitmapping and downloaded
fonts), Inkjet/dot matrix printers are far too slow. In fact,
you'll find that if you do much of anything that isn't printing
with internal fonts.
Also, if you want HP emulation, buy HP. As someone else pointed
out the service is superlative and the product is quality. Last I
checked the only true LaserJet compatibles were the LJ, LJ+,
LJII, LJIID and LJIIP (the III series had not been released yet).
Similarly, if you want PostScript, buy Adobe. I've seen too many
people encounter problems with third party "PostScript"
cartridges to recommend anything else with a good conscience. If
the cart wasn't released or licensed by Adobe, chances are it's
not 100% compatible. Do you want to be the one who finds
themselves looking a deadline in the face while your printer
refuses to function properly?
-dh
--
Don Hosek // Quixote Digital Typography 714-625-0147
dhosek@ymir.claremont.edu
On contract to Beckman Instruments 714-961-4562
dahosek@beckman.comdahosek@biivax.dp.beckman.com (05/24/91)
In article <1991May20.131241.13043@epas.toronto.edu>, ksteele@epas.toronto.edu (Ken Steele) writes: > I've found the DeskJet produces some remarkable output, with the right > software, and I have only wished for a laser when preparing > camera-ready copy for offset printing. (The DeskJet/PageMaker output > looks just great in photocopies, but in offset printing the resolution > seems to be a problem). Of course, if I owned a Laser printer, I'd want > a full-fledged linotronic typesetter when it came to offset printing, anyway... Actually, 300dpi output in general looks very bad when offset print. I don't work with that end of the printing business directly, so I only have the vaguest notion of the reasons for this (problems with the dot coding in the offset process, I believe). Anyone thinking about offset printing something should seriously consider paying the few hundred dollars it would cost to typeset their book instead of just laser printing it. -dh -- Don Hosek // Quixote Digital Typography 714-625-0147 dhosek@ymir.claremont.edu On contract to Beckman Instruments 714-961-4562 dahosek@beckman.com
dlow@pollux.svale.hp.com (Danny Low) (05/24/91)
>(Allen J Michielsen) > You must either be blind or in HP sales (or both ?). The Deskjet 500 is >a very good ink jet, but it is a ink jet. Anyone that can't identify/tell >Deskjet 500 (or any other inkjet available today) from a good, cheap laser >printer (like the IIp) is either blind or doesn't care. There is a difference, >you can tell on ANY paper, the difference is fairly small, BOTH look very >good. I'm just an HP employee who gets a great deal on HP Printers. I bought both a IIP and a DJ 500. The difference in quality is small as you wrote. However even with my employee discount the price difference is BIG. The price difference is even bigger with street prices that others have to pay. If you do not have the bucks the DJ 500 gives you a better deal for virtually the same quality. I would not buy a DJ 500 if printing 300 dpi graphics was the main use. The DJ cannot compete with a LJ for that but for text with some graphics, the DJ offers a good deal for much less money. Danny Low North America Personal Computer Division dlow@pollux.svale.hp.com HP4200/29 720-3622
mheyda@heyda.austin.ibm.com (Michael Heyda) (05/24/91)
> > There is no question that Laser printers offer superior print > resolution, on less expensive paper stock. The printers themselves, > however, are generally twice the price of the new HP DeskJet 500 > (taking student discounts into account) and replacement cartridges are > considerably more than the $19 for a DeskJet cartridge. > It is true that the cartridge cost considerably less. However, a study was done and it was found that it cost about 4 cents/page to print on an inkjet printer and only about 2-3 cents/page to print on a laser printer. This was of course before the $5 refils for inkjets were offered (hey... now I can get several different color ink cartridges and do some color separations....) Mike Heyda
gillies@m.cs.uiuc.edu (Don Gillies) (05/25/91)
Now most electronics houses in New York are offering the HP deskwriter for $499. I bought mine this week from 47Th Street Photo ($524 including shipping). It is WONDERFUL. It is much faster than any macintosh printer I have ever used (well, I have a Mac II). The quality is very good, especially on Xerocopy 4024 paper. The print driver acts like a laserprinter! 25-400% magnification is available, just like the laserwriter driver! They even substitute some 300dpi patterns for a few of the 72dpi grey patterns stored in the system file (but not for the pie, or the diagonal line patterns, unfortunately). Not even the laserwriter driver does this! My only regret is that color quickdraw doesn't produce grey patterns when in b/w mode for mathematica 3-D plots. I'm thinking about trying to write a patch to quickdraw to do this: polygon fills really should try to produce greys on the mac screen. If quickdraw would only do this, users could have all the features of the system 6.1 printing tools with only a deskwriter. Thanks, apple for the stylewriter. It caused HP to reduce the price of its deskwriter, and will make thousands of new HP customers very happy. Don Gillies | University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign gillies@cs.uiuc.edu | Digital Computer Lab, 1304 W. Springfield, Urbana IL --
whitney@reed.cs.unlv.edu (Lee Whitney) (05/29/91)
HP's Laser Printers are one of the few products that are relentlessly cloned and still manage to offer one of the best price/performance/reliability ratios. Although, I would agree in recomending HP Printers, you should at least mention the IIIP, successor to the IIP. Which is far superior to the IIP and at a resonable price. It is basically a 4ppm Series III. It has resolution enhancement, twice the memory (1 meg), and actually processes pages faster than the series III (due to some hardware obscurity I can't remember). As far as the Deskjet, I consider a toy whose days are numbered. How irritating to have to wait forever for printing and to walk on eggs just so you dont smudge important documents. The Laser Printer is becoming a commodity item and when it does the Deskjet will obsolete along with a significant part of the dot-matrix market. It's already tough to justify a Deskjet even for home use when a laser is only about 15-20% more.
lsh@polari.UUCP (Lee Hauser) (05/29/91)
In article <1991May28.201446.8595@unlv.edu> whitney@jimi.cs.unlv.edu (Lee Whitney) writes: > >As far as the Deskjet, I consider a toy whose days are numbered. How >irritating to have to wait forever for printing and to walk on eggs >just so you dont smudge important documents. The Laser Printer is >becoming a commodity item and when it does the Deskjet will obsolete >along with a significant part of the dot-matrix market. It's already >tough to justify a Deskjet even for home use when a laser is only >about 15-20% more. Gee, my documents, draft or finals, don't smear, since HP reformulated the ink. Neither do I wait forever for a printout. I bought my DJ+ for $300, about 50% or better the price of a series P LaserJet. I agree that if laser keep going down in price the deskjets and dot matrixes will be a thing of the past, but I had $300 to spend on a printer three months ago, not $400-$600 to spend on a laser a year from now. It wasn't tough at all to justify the DJ, with non-smearing, 120cps, near-laser final output and non-smearing, 240 cps, better-than-the-nlq-on-my-last-dot-matrix printer draft mode. Amazing, isn't it, how I manage to have a practical computer system for about $1000. About 30% of what a large number of the attorneys I work for (who aren't even computer literate) think is absolutely necessary to get done half of what I do every day... -- ------- ======= ------- ======= ------- ======= ------- ======= ------- ======= uw-beaver!sumax!polari!lsh -- lsh@polari Lee Hauser If I pay for access, I don't have to disclaim ANYTHING!
scotte@applix.com (Scott Evernden) (05/29/91)
In article <1991May28.201446.8595@unlv.edu> whitney@jimi.cs.unlv.edu (Lee Whitney) writes: > >As far as the Deskjet, I consider a toy whose days are numbered. How >irritating to have to wait forever for printing and to walk on eggs >just so you dont smudge important documents. The Laser Printer is >becoming a commodity item and when it does the Deskjet will obsolete >along with a significant part of the dot-matrix market. It's already >tough to justify a Deskjet even for home use when a laser is only >about 15-20% more. This is baloney. Why would H-P have just introduced a new model in the DJ 500? The ink doesn't smudge now. The machine is utterly silent. And with ATM, I can have all the fonts I want. And, very importantly, there is *no* warm up time to print. With both ser. and par. connectors, You can even drive one printer from 2 computers! For low volume use, like a page or 3 each day or so, this is the most sensible printer you can get for the money. It absolutely takes care of all of my home office requirements. Now, please- can you let us all know where to pick up that laser printer you mentioned for $570? (1.2 times $475 for a DJ500)... -scott
mig@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Meir) (05/30/91)
In article <1991May28.201446.8595@unlv.edu> whitney@jimi.cs.unlv.edu (Lee Whitney) writes: >As far as the Deskjet, I consider a toy whose days are numbered. How >irritating to have to wait forever for printing and to walk on eggs >just so you dont smudge important documents. The Laser Printer is >becoming a commodity item and when it does the Deskjet will obsolete >along with a significant part of the dot-matrix market. It's already >tough to justify a Deskjet even for home use when a laser is only >about 15-20% more. Huh? Deskjet $450 Laser $800 * * * * * * * ======================= Meir Green * * * * * * * * ======================= mig@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu * * * * * * * ======================= N2JPG
lair@ellis.uchicago.edu (Scott A. Laird) (05/30/91)
In article <1991May29.193122.22293@cunixf.cc.columbia.edu> mig@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Meir) writes: >In article <1991May28.201446.8595@unlv.edu> whitney@jimi.cs.unlv.edu (Lee Whitney) writes: >>As far as the Deskjet, I consider a toy whose days are numbered. How >>irritating to have to wait forever for printing and to walk on eggs >>just so you dont smudge important documents. The Laser Printer is >>becoming a commodity item and when it does the Deskjet will obsolete >>along with a significant part of the dot-matrix market. It's already >>tough to justify a Deskjet even for home use when a laser is only >>about 15-20% more. >Huh? >Deskjet $450 >Laser $800 > > * * * * * * * ======================= Meir Green >* * * * * * * * ======================= mig@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu > * * * * * * * ======================= N2JPG That's more like $490 for the DeskJet and $630 for the Laser, from where I look at it from. Those are the best prices I saw in a quick scan I just did through the June 11, 1991 PC Magazine. Not the best prices available, I'm sure, but that's a lot closer than $450 and $800. The laser was the Okidata 400, which isn't technically a laser, but you'd never know unless you opened it up and checked. That's about 30%. It's still a contest, but the laser's only $140 more expensive, and should print much faster. Of course, I still have a dot matrix, so what do I know? Scott. -- Scott A. Laird | Any semblance of the above to anything is purely lair@midway.uchicago.edu | coincidental, as it was the result of an infinite The University of Chicago | number of monkeys sneaking in to use my computer | for the afternoon.
dlow@pollux.svale.hp.com (Danny Low) (05/30/91)
>(Lee Whitney) >As far as the Deskjet, I consider a toy whose days are numbered. How >irritating to have to wait forever for printing and to walk on eggs >just so you dont smudge important documents. The Laser Printer is >becoming a commodity item and when it does the Deskjet will obsolete >along with a significant part of the dot-matrix market. It's already >tough to justify a Deskjet even for home use when a laser is only >about 15-20% more. The street prices for HP lasterjet vs. HP Deskjet is a lot more than 15-20% difference. Besides, the DJ is much better for envelopes. I have tried every laserjet HP makes and cannot get envelopes done on them with the same speed, convenience and quality I get from a DJ. I have tried every type of envelope including ones made specifically for laser printers. Danny Low "Question Authority and the Authorities will question You" Valley of Hearts Delight, Silicon Valley HP NPCD dlow@pollux.svale.hp.com
whitney@reed.cs.unlv.edu (Lee Whitney) (05/30/91)
Sorry if I got the pricing wrong on the for the Deskjet, I was estimating according to prices in PC Mag June 11. Deskjet 500 $499 OkiLaser 400 $629 (Not low-line junk either as it won Editor's Choice) As for graphics speed, which almost everybody uses, I know the Deskjet is so slow it would make me wait and save the $150-$200 if I could only afford $450-$500 for a Deskjet. Also the price for the HP IIP was dropped significantly with the introduction of the HP IIIP. This should put more pressure on the Deskjet. If anyone gets a guage of the new retail and street prices for the IIP, please post.
robertt@hp-vcd.HP.COM (Bob Taylor) (06/13/91)
s for graphics speed, which almost everybody uses, I know the Deskjet | is so slow it would make me wait and save the $150-$200 if I could | only afford $450-$500 for a Deskjet. BZZZT! Wrong! The original DeskJet was a graphics dog, but the DeskJet 500 is actually faster than most lasers in graphics, due primarily to advanced graphics compression. The LaserJet III, IIIP, & IIID all have the newer graphics compression, but any of the LaserJet II clones (OKI, etc.) donUt. Bob Taylor HP Vancouver