jerry@gumby.Altos.COM (Jerry Gardner) (02/13/91)
Direct from Software Development '91:
"Now there's a vastly superior way to write Microsoft Windows
Applications
Borland C++. The professional language that comes with compiler,
debugger, and all the tools you need to develop Windows 3.0 and
DOS applications--and you don't have to spend hundreds of dollars
more for a Windows Software Development Kit (SDK).
Borland C++ is from the people who know what professional
programmers want.
Designed by professionals, for professionals.
Every copy of Borland's C++ comes with:
* Complete support for building Windows applications.
* A 100% ANSI compatible C compiler and a C++ compiler.
* Turbo Drive Compiler and Environment running in protected mode.
* Pre-compiled headers to dramatically increase re-compilation speed.
* Turbo Debugger for DOS and Windows.
* Whitewater Resource Toolkit for creating icons, dialogs, bitmaps,
& menu bars.
* Turbo Profiler and Turbo Assembler."
List price is $495.
--
Jerry Gardner, NJ6A Altos Computer Systems
UUCP: {sun|pyramid|sco|amdahl|uunet}!altos!jerry 2641 Orchard Parkway
Internet: jerry@altos.com San Jose, CA 95134
Guns don't kill people, bullets do. (408) 432-6200larry@titan.tsd.arlut.utexas.edu (Larry Maturo) (02/14/91)
In article <4698@gumby.Altos.COM> jerry@gumby.Altos.COM (Jerry Gardner) writes: Direct from Software Development '91: "Now there's a vastly superior way to write Microsoft Windows Applications Borland C++. The professional language that comes with compiler, debugger, and all the tools you need to develop Windows 3.0 and DOS applications--and you don't have to spend hundreds of dollars more for a Windows Software Development Kit (SDK). Borland C++ is from the people who know what professional programmers want. Designed by professionals, for professionals. Every copy of Borland's C++ comes with: * Complete support for building Windows applications. * A 100% ANSI compatible C compiler and a C++ compiler. * Turbo Drive Compiler and Environment running in protected mode. * Pre-compiled headers to dramatically increase re-compilation speed. * Turbo Debugger for DOS and Windows. * Whitewater Resource Toolkit for creating icons, dialogs, bitmaps, & menu bars. * Turbo Profiler and Turbo Assembler." List price is $495. I just called the Borland order desk for the 5th time this week, third time today. They deny having a C++ or Pascal for Windows. If pushed hard enough they will allow as how they may eventualy have one, but as of today, no way. +-----------------------------------+----------------------------------------+ | | | | Larry Maturo | Opinions expressed herein must be | | Applied Research Laboratories | yours, neither I nor my employer have | | University of Texas at Austin | any. | | P.O. Box 8029 +----------------------------------------+ | Austin, Texas 78713-8029 | | | | When you're as great as I am it's hard | | larry @titan.tsd.arlut.utexas.edu | to be modest, but I succeed where | | | others fail. | +-----------------------------------+----------------------------------------+
dandrews@bilver.uucp (Dave Andrews) (02/14/91)
In article <LARRY.91Feb13132229@unicorn.titan.tsd.arlut.utexas.edu> larry@titan.tsd.arlut.utexas.edu (Larry Maturo) writes: > > >I just called the Borland order desk for the 5th time this week, third time >today. They deny having a C++ or Pascal for Windows. If pushed hard enough >they will allow as how they may eventualy have one, but as of today, no way. Hmmm. I called them yesterday (the 13th) and they confirmed that yes, they did announce C++ for windows. They'll start taking orders next Tuesday, but have no further information today. - David Andrews tarpit!bilver!dandrews
ahodgson@athena.mit.edu (Antony Hodgson) (02/14/91)
In article <LARRY.91Feb13132229@unicorn.titan.tsd.arlut.utexas.edu> larry@titan.tsd.arlut.utexas.edu (Larry Maturo) writes: > >I just called the Borland order desk for the 5th time this week, third time >today. They deny having a C++ or Pascal for Windows. If pushed hard enough >they will allow as how they may eventualy have one, but as of today, no way. I called Wednesday and was told the sales staff had received the briefing on the new product on Tuesday, and it should be available by early next week. No other details, I'm afraid. Tony Hodgson ahodgson@hstbme.mit.edu
larry@titan.tsd.arlut.utexas.edu (Larry Maturo) (02/15/91)
In article <1991Feb14.151804.6890@athena.mit.edu> ahodgson@athena.mit.edu (Antony Hodgson) writes: Path: titan!cs.utexas.edu!sdd.hp.com!think.com!snorkelwacker.mit.edu!bloom-picayune.mit.edu!ahodgson From: ahodgson@athena.mit.edu (Antony Hodgson) Newsgroups: comp.os.msdos.programmer Date: 14 Feb 91 15:18:04 GMT References: <4698@gumby.Altos.COM> <LARRY.91Feb13132229@unicorn.titan.tsd.arlut.utexas.edu> Sender: news@athena.mit.edu (News system) Organization: Massachusetts Institute of Technology Lines: 12 In article <LARRY.91Feb13132229@unicorn.titan.tsd.arlut.utexas.edu> larry@titan.tsd.arlut.utexas.edu (Larry Maturo) writes: > >I just called the Borland order desk for the 5th time this week, third time >today. They deny having a C++ or Pascal for Windows. If pushed hard enough >they will allow as how they may eventualy have one, but as of today, no way. I called Wednesday and was told the sales staff had received the briefing on the new product on Tuesday, and it should be available by early next week. No other details, I'm afraid. Tony Hodgson ahodgson@hstbme.mit.edu ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I called today and they let me order it (2/14/91). If you are upgrading from Turbo C++ Professional to Borland C++ (thats right, not Turbo C++) you need to have your serial numbers for both Turbo C++ and the Debugger. In Texas the total upgrade cost (upgrade, Texas tax, and $10.00 shipping fee) approximately $116.00. They do not have a ship date yet, though I've seen on the net both the 29th of the month and also that they were already shipping. Considering the cost of the MS SDK and MS C 6.0 and the fact that MS C 6.0 is a disaster, this is a deal I can`t refuse. +-----------------------------------+----------------------------------------+ | | | | Larry Maturo | Opinions expressed herein must be | | Applied Research Laboratories | yours, neither I nor my employer have | | University of Texas at Austin | any. | | P.O. Box 8029 +----------------------------------------+ | Austin, Texas 78713-8029 | | | | When you're as great as I am it's hard | | larry @titan.tsd.arlut.utexas.edu | to be modest, but I succeed where | | | others fail. | +-----------------------------------+----------------------------------------+
so@brownie.cs.wisc.edu (Bryan S. So) (02/15/91)
In article <1991Feb14.151804.6890@athena.mit.edu> ahodgson@athena.mit.edu (Antony Hodgson) writes: >In article <LARRY.91Feb13132229@unicorn.titan.tsd.arlut.utexas.edu> larry@titan.tsd.arlut.utexas.edu (Larry Maturo) writes: >> >>I just called the Borland order desk for the 5th time this week, third time >>today. They deny having a C++ or Pascal for Windows. If pushed hard enough >>they will allow as how they may eventualy have one, but as of today, no way. > >I called Wednesday and was told the sales staff had received the briefing >on the new product on Tuesday, and it should be available by early next >week. No other details, I'm afraid. > >Tony Hodgson >ahodgson@hstbme.mit.edu I got an upgrade offer in my mail box today! Upgrade from Turbo C or Turbo C++ is $149.95, upgrade from Professionals is $99.95. Retail price is $495.95! The brochure says: Borland C++ gives you everything you need to generate Windows programs and Dynamic Link Libraries (DLL's). And with the included Whitewater Resource Toolkit, you can visually create icons, bit maps, dialogs, menus and other essentials for your Windows applications. Even better, since Borland C++ gives you the MS Windows header file and resource compiler, you don't need the MS SDK. I don't really know what a resource compiler is, can somebody explain? (By the way, they don't call it Turbo any more. It is now called Borland C++. And it is bundled with Profiler/Assembler/ Debugger, so there is no Pro package avail.) Bryan So
dmk8r@plaid.cs.Virginia.EDU (Darrell M. Kienzle) (02/15/91)
FYI, I just spoke to the people from Borland's Educational Sales Department, and was told that the price for C++ 2.0 was $99.95 through their program, postage paid. To order via this method, they require a letter from your school / faculty member on school letterhead "introducing" you as a registered student. Mail this with Credit Card info to: Borland International Educational Sales Department PO Box 660001 Scotts Valley, CA 95067-0001 Hope this helps, Darrell Kienzle dmk8r@Virginia.EDU
suhonen@kunto.jyu.fi (Timo Suhonen) (02/15/91)
larry@titan.tsd.arlut.utexas.edu (Larry Maturo) writes:
I just called the Borland order desk for the 5th time this week, third time
today. They deny having a C++ or Pascal for Windows. If pushed hard enough
they will allow as how they may eventualy have one, but as of today, no way.
TC++ 2.0 is NOT a window application. You run it from not-so-good-old DOS,
but you can write Windows programs with it.
--
Timo Suhonen I am logged in, therefore I am suhonen@nic.funet.fi
suhonen@kunto.jyu.fi
Opinions(?) are mine (if not stolen), NOT those of Univ. of Jyvaskyla.flint@gistdev.gist.com (Flint Pellett) (02/15/91)
so@brownie.cs.wisc.edu (Bryan S. So) writes: >The brochure says: > Borland C++ gives you everything you need to generate > Windows programs and Dynamic Link Libraries (DLL's). > And with the included Whitewater Resource Toolkit, you > can visually create icons, bit maps, dialogs, menus and > other essentials for your Windows applications. Even > better, since Borland C++ gives you the MS Windows > header file and resource compiler, you don't need the > MS SDK. >I don't really know what a resource compiler is, can somebody >explain? I heard second-hand about a demo of this that was given: since I didn't see this first-hand, take it with a (big) grain of salt. The claim was that the demo showed them building some program in both the MS and Borland development environments on identical machines: the program took 50 seconds to build in the MS environment, 20 seconds in the Borland one. Then they changed something and rebuilt it: MS took another 50 seconds, Borland took 3. Apparently the difference on the second compile has something to do with pre-compilation of all the header file info that hardly ever changes (how often do you edit stdio.h ?) into a file that is saved and available to the second compile. I don't know if this is the "resource compiler" you mentioned, but it might be. -- Flint Pellett, Global Information Systems Technology, Inc. 1800 Woodfield Drive, Savoy, IL 61874 (217) 352-1165 uunet!gistdev!flint or flint@gistdev.gist.com
hollen@megatek.UUCP (Dion Hollenbeck) (02/16/91)
In article <1991Feb14.142747.18990@bilver.uucp> dandrews@bilver.uucp (Dave Andrews) writes: > > In article <LARRY.91Feb13132229@unicorn.titan.tsd.arlut.utexas.edu> larry@titan.tsd.arlut.utexas.edu (Larry Maturo) writes: > > > > > >I just called the Borland order desk for the 5th time this week, third time > >today. They deny having a C++ or Pascal for Windows. If pushed hard enough > >they will allow as how they may eventualy have one, but as of today, no way. > > Hmmm. I called them yesterday (the 13th) and they confirmed that yes, > they did announce C++ for windows. They'll start taking orders next > Tuesday, but have no further information today. > > - David Andrews tarpit!bilver!dandrews I just received an update card good for Turbo C to Turbo C++ 2.0. When I called to find out if I upgraded if I could sell my Turbo C and transfer the registration, they were more than happy to take my order today. By the way, they say that NO you cannot sell the old version when you upgrade. "Either destroy it or put it on the shelf." -- ----- Dion Hollenbeck (619) 455-5590 x2814 Megatek Corporation, 9645 Scranton Road, San Diego, CA 92121 uunet!megatek!hollen or hollen@megatek.uucp
resnicks@netcom.COM (Steve Resnick) (02/16/91)
In article <1991Feb15.041246.15904@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU> dmk8r@plaid.cs.Virginia.EDU (Darrell M. Kienzle) writes: > >FYI, I just spoke to the people from Borland's Educational Sales >Department, and was told that the price for C++ 2.0 was $99.95 >through their program, postage paid. > I just got my upgrade coupon. If you own TC or TC++ the upgrade price is $149.95. If you own TC or TC++ Professional it's $99.95. It liss for $495.95 Thought you'd like to know ... Steve -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- resnicks@netcom.com, apple!camphq!105!steve.resnick, IFNA: 1:143/105.0, USNail: 530 Lawrence Expressway, Suite 374 Sunnyvale, Ca 94086 - In real life: Steve Resnick. Flames, grammar and spelling errors >/dev/null 0x2b |~ 0x2b, THAT is the question. The Asylum OS/2 BBS - (408)263-8017 12/2400,8,1 - Running Maximus CBCS 1.2 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
cs161fhn@sdcc10.ucsd.edu (Dennis Lou) (02/16/91)
In article <24216@netcom.COM> resnicks@netcom.COM (Steve Resnick) writes: >In article <1991Feb15.041246.15904@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU> dmk8r@plaid.cs.Virginia.EDU (Darrell M. Kienzle) writes: >>FYI, I just spoke to the people from Borland's Educational Sales >>Department, and was told that the price for C++ 2.0 was $99.95 >>through their program, postage paid. > >I just got my upgrade coupon. If you own TC or TC++ the upgrade price is >$149.95. If you own TC or TC++ Professional it's $99.95. It liss for $495.95 Hmmm, I think a better idea is for me to sell my existing TC++ Pro to someone and buy C++ 2.0 with the Edu discount... -- Dennis Lou || "But Yossarian, what if everyone thought that way?" dlou@ucsd.edu || "Then I'd be crazy to think any other way!" [backbone]!ucsd!dlou |+==================================================== dlou@ucsd.BITNET |Steve Jobs and Steve Wozniak went to my high school.
lair@ellis.uchicago.edu (scott allen laird) (02/16/91)
In article <1991Feb14.204813.26432@spool.cs.wisc.edu> so@brownie.cs.wisc.edu (Bryan S. So) writes: [Much information on the introduction of Borland C++ and the windows utilities it includes and a few other things deleted] >I don't really know what a resource compiler is, can somebody >explain? > >(By the way, they don't call it Turbo any more. It is now > called Borland C++. And it is bundled with Profiler/Assembler/ > Debugger, so there is no Pro package avail.) > > >Bryan So > The resource compiler is a utility that compiles resources such as icons, menus dialog boxes, and other "resources" that Windows uses into the .exe file. According to the SDK manual for Windows 2.xx (MS wants more to upgrade than Borland wants for the student edition of Borland C++, and I'm just a poor student that got a really good deal on the SDK...) you must define your resources in a resource script file (usually having a .rc extension), and then use the resource compiler to compile them into your .exe file. The resources themselves can either be hard-coded into the source itself, or put into the resource file. Generally, the resource file is the easier method, since you can simply include a line such as mycursor CURSOR mycursor.cur to define a cursor found in the bitmap file mycursor.cur, instead of hard- coding the bitmap into the source with an array. The resource compiler also allows you to re-compile the resource portion of a file without re-compiling the code, saving quite a bit of effort, as you can tell by the sample times Borland gave. The resource file is also the recommended meathod of including the text i application, since a string can be included just as easily as an icon. Microsoft states that this makes translating to other languages easier, since all the translator's work is in one file, and the source doesn't have to be included. I'm sure someone who is an experienced Windows programmer could give a much better (and up to date) explanation, but this should give you the general idea. For an example, look at any of the windows applications on cica.cica.indiana.edu or simtel that contain soruce code, and examine the .rc file. You may also consider asking the "experts" in comp.windows.ms.programmer, since I'm reasonably sure they could help. -- Scott A. Laird | Any semblance of the above to anything is purely lair@midway.uchicago.edu | coincidental, as it was the result of an infinite The University of Chicago | number of monkeys sneaking in to use my computer | for the afternoon.
resnicks@netcom.COM (Steve Resnick) (02/16/91)
In article <1134@gistdev.gist.com> flint@gistdev.gist.com (Flint Pellett) writes: >so@brownie.cs.wisc.edu (Bryan S. So) writes: > >>The brochure says: > >> Borland C++ gives you everything you need to generate >> Windows programs and Dynamic Link Libraries (DLL's). >> And with the included Whitewater Resource Toolkit, you >> can visually create icons, bit maps, dialogs, menus and >> other essentials for your Windows applications. Even >> better, since Borland C++ gives you the MS Windows >> header file and resource compiler, you don't need the >> MS SDK. > >>I don't really know what a resource compiler is, can somebody >>explain? A resource compiler is a tool which allows you to (much more simply than in C code) define the resources in your application. Resources are things like menus, dialog boxes, bitmaps, icons, etc. I have not worked with Windows development before, but I do presentation manager code occasionally, and the MS PM SDK has a resource compiler as part of the package. From reading Borland's intro on TC++ 2.0, that is what I believe they are talking about (Hey! Don't change my buzzwords on me!) Cheers! Steve -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- resnicks@netcom.com, apple!camphq!105!steve.resnick, IFNA: 1:143/105.0, USNail: 530 Lawrence Expressway, Suite 374 Sunnyvale, Ca 94086 - In real life: Steve Resnick. Flames, grammar and spelling errors >/dev/null 0x2b |~ 0x2b, THAT is the question. The Asylum OS/2 BBS - (408)263-8017 12/2400,8,1 - Running Maximus CBCS 1.2 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
jdb@reef.cis.ufl.edu (Brian K. W. Hook) (02/18/91)
Here is something interesting: I called Borland about the upgrade, and the guy asked me for my certificate number for the upgrade (if you have the registered product you WILL get a certificate in the mail)...I gave it to him, and he had my name and address. Fine. However, he did NOT have what product I had purchased! He asked me specifically whethere I wished to upgrade from TC++ or TC++ Pro. Well, I have the Turbo Tools but I just purchased them last week and didn't send in the registration card yet, and thus I told him I had TC++ Pro (I wasn't really lying). He said okay, the upgrade is 99 dollars. That saved me 50 dollars. Now, I believe everything I did was legal, but what intrigues me is the fact that they took my word on it. They know where I live but they DON'T know what I own?! Interesting.... Brian
sdawalt@valhalla.wright.edu (Shane Dawalt) (02/18/91)
From article <LARRY.91Feb14131430@unicorn.titan.tsd.arlut.utexas.edu>, by larry@titan.tsd.arlut.utexas.edu (Larry Maturo): > > I called today and they let me order it (2/14/91). If you are upgrading > from Turbo C++ Professional to Borland C++ (thats right, not Turbo C++) > you need to have your serial numbers for both Turbo C++ and the Debugger. > In Texas the total upgrade cost (upgrade, Texas tax, and $10.00 shipping > fee) approximately $116.00. They do not have a ship date yet, though > I've seen on the net both the 29th of the month and also that they were > already shipping. Considering the cost of the MS SDK and MS C 6.0 and > the fact that MS C 6.0 is a disaster, this is a deal I can`t refuse. > Did you have the upgrade certificate? I only gave them my certificate number. Borland automatically selected the $99.95 upgrade option. I didn't need to tell them my current version nor my serial numbers. Quite a database Borland is using. :-) Shane(); -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From the keyboard of: email: sdawalt@cs.wright.edu Shane A. Dawalt --------------------------------------------------------------------------
scott@blueeyes.kines.uiuc.edu (scott) (02/19/91)
In article <26972@uflorida.cis.ufl.EDU> jdb@reef.cis.ufl.edu (Brian K. W. Hook) writes: >Here is something interesting: > >I called Borland about the upgrade, and the guy asked me for my certificate >number for the upgrade (if you have the registered product you WILL get a >certificate in the mail)...I gave it to him, and he had my name and >address. Fine. However, he did NOT have what product I had purchased! He >asked me specifically whethere I wished to upgrade from TC++ or TC++ Pro. >Well, I have the Turbo Tools but I just purchased them last week and didn't >send in the registration card yet, and thus I told him I had TC++ Pro (I >wasn't really lying). > >He said okay, the upgrade is 99 dollars. > >That saved me 50 dollars. Now, I believe everything I did was legal, but >what intrigues me is the fact that they took my word on it. They know >where I live but they DON'T know what I own?! I don't think they really care what you bought. I purchased Turbo Assembler and Debugger 1.0 last year. I got an upgrade coupon for the new version of Turbo Assembler, so I called them up to order the upgrade. The lady on the other end offered me TC++ 1.0 Pro, even though the last Turbo C I had purchased was 1.0, a long time back. I got it at the upgrade price of $125, no hassle, no fuss. Last week when I ordered BC++ 2.0 I was asked for my upgrade coupon number. I explained that I hadn't received it yet, and prepared for a minor hassle getting her to take my order. I needn't have worried - the order clerk just added me to the system, took my order for the $99 upgrade from my TC++ 1.0 Pro, and that was that. No hassle, no problem, no fuss. I even had my original disks out to give her the serial numbers, but she never asked for them. My guess is that they make enough money selling the packages at the upgrade price that they don't have to be ultra-persnickety-careful about who they sell to. Clearly they also recognize the value of giving their current customers a hassle-free upgrade to a new product. By showing trust and taking the customer's word for it, they do nothing but improve their customer relations (which is no bad thing). I seriously doubt that Borland loses any money by selling the upgrades at that price, so it's a big WIN for them in every department, with the added benefit of being a WIN for us. It's kinda like their no-nonsense license ageement - a no-nonsense upgrade policy. You other software manufacturers out there reading this, you'd do well to follow Borland's fine example. -- Scott Coleman tmkk@uiuc.edu "Unisys has demonstrated the power of two. That's their stock price today." - Scott McNealy on the history of mergers in the computer industry.
ejy@cbnewsi.att.com (eugene.yurek) (02/19/91)
From article <1991Feb18.165403.3938@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu>, by scott@blueeyes.kines.uiuc.edu (scott): > In article <26972@uflorida.cis.ufl.EDU> jdb@reef.cis.ufl.edu (Brian K. W. Hook) writes: >>Here is something interesting: >> >>I called Borland about the upgrade, and the guy asked me for my certificate > ... > > I don't think they really care what you bought... > > Last week when I ordered BC++ 2.0 I was asked for my upgrade coupon number. > I explained that I hadn't received it yet, and prepared for a minor hassle > getting her to take my order. I needn't have worried - the order clerk just > added me to the system, took my order for the $99 upgrade from my TC++ 1.0 > Pro, and that was that. No hassle, no problem, no fuss. I even had my original > disks out to give her the serial numbers, but she never asked for them. > > My guess is that they make enough money selling the packages at the upgrade > price that they don't have to be ultra-persnickety-careful about who they > sell to. > ... > > > -- > Scott Coleman tmkk@uiuc.edu Software manufacturers make MORE money by selling upgrades than by having some other person (dealer, mail-order place, ...) sell the original product for them. At $99.00, Borland makes $99.00 in-hand (less duplicating fees). A product that costs $99.00 in the retail market probably makes the company that wrote it $50.00 to $60.00 (or less). -- Eugene J. Yurek Internet: ejy@honasa.att.com AT&T Bell Laboratories UUCP: ...!att!honasa!ejy Holmdel, NJ Voice: (201) 949-3753
dougs@videovax.tv.tek.com (Doug Stevens) (02/19/91)
In article <LARRY.91Feb13132229@unicorn.titan.tsd.arlut.utexas.edu>, larry@titan.tsd.arlut.utexas.edu (Larry Maturo) writes: > > I just called the Borland order desk for the 5th time this week, third time > today. They deny having a C++ or Pascal for Windows. If pushed hard enough > they will allow as how they may eventualy have one, but as of today, no way. > I just received my upgrade coupon for Borland C++ version 2.0; price is $99.95 (from Turbo-C professional or Turbo-C++ professional), and $149.95 (from Turbo-C or Turbo-C++ not-professional). The blurb says: Borland C++ lets you develop standard DOS applications now and -- when you're ready -- create Windows applications and Window's Dynamic Link Libraries (DLLs). ... A MS Resource compiler plus WINDOWS.H to eliminate the need for Microsoft's ... Software Development Kit. other goodies are new turbo drive compiler for huge apps (does this take care of the 'out of memory' problem when there are symbols turned on for all files?), precompiled headers, protected mode support, new debugger, Whitewater resource toolkit. Sure sounds like they have a Windows compiler.
tdh@DRD.Com (Tom Haynes) (02/20/91)
scott@blueeyes.kines.uiuc.edu (scott) wrote: } } I don't think they really care what you bought. I purchased Turbo Assembler } and Debugger 1.0 last year. I got an upgrade coupon for the new version of } Turbo Assembler, so I called them up to order the upgrade. The lady on the } other end offered me TC++ 1.0 Pro, even though the last Turbo C I had purchased } was 1.0, a long time back. I got it at the upgrade price of $125, no hassle, } no fuss. } } Last week when I ordered BC++ 2.0 I was asked for my upgrade coupon number. } I explained that I hadn't received it yet, and prepared for a minor hassle } getting her to take my order. I needn't have worried - the order clerk just } added me to the system, took my order for the $99 upgrade from my TC++ 1.0 } Pro, and that was that. No hassle, no problem, no fuss. I even had my original } } My guess is that they make enough money selling the packages at the upgrade } price that they don't have to be ultra-persnickety-careful about who they } sell to. Clearly they also recognize the value of giving their current } customers a hassle-free upgrade to a new product. By showing trust and } taking the customer's word for it, they do nothing but improve their customer } relations (which is no bad thing). I seriously doubt that Borland loses } any money by selling the upgrades at that price, so it's a big WIN for } them in every department, with the added benefit of being a WIN for us. } } It's kinda like their no-nonsense license ageement - a no-nonsense upgrade } policy. You other software manufacturers out there reading this, you'd do } well to follow Borland's fine example. } } } -- } Scott Coleman tmkk@uiuc.edu } } "Unisys has demonstrated the power of two. That's their stock price today." } - Scott McNealy on the history of mergers in the computer industry. The thing that I liked about Borland is that they learn from their mistakes. If you recall, the upgrade from TC 2.0 Professional to TC++ 1.0 Professional did not include the Assembler manual. They said that it hadn't changed that much, and you could use the other one. By not sending the new manual, they were able to offer the upgrade at such a low price. They caught alot of flack on this. I really didn't like it when they offered upgrades to people with other compiliers for the same price I paid. Did they not get the Assembler manual? Anyway, when I called for my upgrade, I asked them if I got all the manuals, and the customer service rep said "Yes, we learned our lesson." See if Microsoft does this for you. Tom Haynes, tdh@drd.com
don@usna.navy.mil (Mr. Donald W. Garner (CADIG STAFF) <don@usna.navy.mil>) (02/21/91)
My Borland C++ 2.0 announcement indicated that "windows programming" was required. When I called the 800 number the rep couldn't tell me if anything other than Borland C++ 2.0 is required to generate complete MS Windows 3.0 applications. OK, SDK is not required. I guess I need MS Windows 3.0 to test applications. Is any part of the MS Windows 3.0 programming suite required to generate complete MS Windows applications?
poffen@sj.ate.slb.com (Russ Poffenberger) (02/21/91)
In article <26972@uflorida.cis.ufl.EDU> jdb@reef.cis.ufl.edu (Brian K. W. Hook) writes: >Here is something interesting: > >I called Borland about the upgrade, and the guy asked me for my certificate >number for the upgrade (if you have the registered product you WILL get a >certificate in the mail)...I gave it to him, and he had my name and >address. Fine. However, he did NOT have what product I had purchased! He >asked me specifically whethere I wished to upgrade from TC++ or TC++ Pro. >Well, I have the Turbo Tools but I just purchased them last week and didn't >send in the registration card yet, and thus I told him I had TC++ Pro (I >wasn't really lying). > >He said okay, the upgrade is 99 dollars. > >That saved me 50 dollars. Now, I believe everything I did was legal, but >what intrigues me is the fact that they took my word on it. They know >where I live but they DON'T know what I own?! > >Interesting.... I sent in my upgrade certificate. It had 2 boxes to check. One is an upgrade from TC++ for $149.95, and the other from TC++ Pro for $99.95. Why they even bother to offer the $149 one is beyond me. Oh, yeah sure, I will pay $50 more :-). I guess they just take your word for it. I recently got an offer to get W4W at a discount price if you own some other competing word processor. All they want is your signature stating that you currently own one of the mentioned packages. No proof or anything. Russ Poffenberger DOMAIN: poffen@sj.ate.slb.com Schlumberger Technologies UUCP: {uunet,decwrl,amdahl}!sjsca4!poffen 1601 Technology Drive CIS: 72401,276 San Jose, Ca. 95110 (408)437-5254
gclapp@javelin.es.com (Glenn Clapp) (02/21/91)
In article <1991Feb20.130922.11605@DRD.Com> tdh@DRD.Com (Tom Haynes) writes: >scott@blueeyes.kines.uiuc.edu (scott) wrote: >} [deleted stuff] >} >} It's kinda like their no-nonsense license ageement - a no-nonsense upgrade >} policy. You other software manufacturers out there reading this, you'd do >} well to follow Borland's fine example. >} >} > [more deleted stuff] > >They caught alot of flack on this. I really didn't like it when >they offered upgrades to people with other compiliers for the >same price I paid. Did they not get the Assembler manual? > I'm not so sure that its a bad idea to offer upgrades to people who own other compilers. I've been a long time MSC user, and upgraded MANY times at $125.00 a pop. I figure its about $1000.00! The original purchase price was somewhere around $250.00. Thats 300% more for the upgrades! If they can get someone else's customer to switch, think of the upgrade revenue that generates. I'll be switching either to Zortec or BC++ Pro (havn't decided which yet). Why?? After all those years? Cuz MSC decided to go almost totally on line documentation. WHAT A WASTE! Way to go Microsoft! Have you ever heard of refering to the docs WHILE programming? Oh that's right, you can do all that in PWB. WHO THE HELL WANTS TO USE PROGRAMMER"S WORK BENCH when you've spent years gathering and writing all your COOL utilities that do 10X more than PWB ever will and TONS faster? Not ME! Oh, to be fair, they do provide SOME docs in hardcopy format, but not really useful, more of an overview that you stuff on a shelf and forget about... useless. They have no excuse either, since Microsoft docs are in a ring binder, they could at least give you the FEW pages required to for things that have changed. It wouldn't be that much! Oh, and get this... They have the gall to include an order form for the library ref manual for another $22.50! What? more $$$? Piss Off Microsoft! If I wanted to use a "programmers environment" I'd use QuickC! Is MS trying to integrate the professional users with the kiddies tinkering? Anyone else out there an anoyed as I? SWITCH! MSC STILL has no C++, why wait! BC++ supports Windows, (another $350.00 from MS!), Zortec generates 386 code and supports VM! Both are probably better products that MSC. >Anyway, when I called for my upgrade, I asked them if I got all >the manuals, and the customer service rep said "Yes, we learned >our lesson." See if Microsoft does this for you. ^^^^^^^^^ Micro-screw-loyal-customers-soft So, Microsoft, "What have you done for me lately?" -- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
psm@manta.NOSC.MIL (Scot Mcintosh) (02/22/91)
In article <1991Feb21.013904.6909@javelin.es.com> gclapp@javelin.UUCP (Glenn Clapp) writes: >I'm not so sure that its a bad idea to offer upgrades to people who own >other compilers. I've been a long time MSC user, and upgraded MANY times >at $125.00 a pop. I figure its about $1000.00! The original purchase >price was somewhere around $250.00. Thats 300% more for the upgrades! >If they can get someone else's customer to switch, think of the upgrade >revenue that generates. I'll be switching either to Zortec or BC++ Pro >(havn't decided which yet). Why?? After all those years? Cuz MSC >decided to go almost totally on line documentation. WHAT A WASTE! Way >to go Microsoft! Have you ever heard of refering to the docs WHILE >programming? Oh that's right, you can do all that in PWB. WHO THE HELL >WANTS TO USE PROGRAMMER"S WORK BENCH when you've spent years gathering >and writing all your COOL utilities that do 10X more than PWB ever will >and TONS faster? Not ME! Oh, to be fair, they do provide SOME docs >in hardcopy format, but not really useful, more of an overview that you >stuff on a shelf and forget about... useless. They have no excuse either, >since Microsoft docs are in a ring binder, they could at least give you >the FEW pages required to for things that have changed. It wouldn't be >that much! Oh, and get this... They have the gall to include an order >form for the library ref manual for another $22.50! What? more $$$? >Piss Off Microsoft! I agree with the general sentiment (though not the language) above. I was a long time MSC user (and still hold a good size chunk of Microsoft stock) and switched to Borland C++ recently. I really like the windowing environment and was up and running with it almost immediately. In contrast, I never became proficient with MSC PWB, finding it counter-intuitive and generally a pain to use. I also resent the Microsoft policy of issuing change pages for upgrades instead of full manual sets. I don't like to put change pages into my manuals until I'm sure I won't need to go back to prior versions. The only thing I miss about MSC is its compiler switch that generates function prototypes from the code, and I've picked up a stand-alone utility that does that for me. Perhaps the "penny is dropping", as the British say, for Microsoft: I just got an "upgrade" notice, ala Borland, for going to Excel from my current spreadsheet for $129. I called them up, and they took my word for the fact that I'm a Quattro Pro user. A harbinger of a policy shift maybe? ---- Scot McIntosh Internet: psm@helios.nosc.mil UUCP: {ihnp4,akgua,decvax,decwest,ucbvax}!sdscvax!nosc!psm "It's not a bug, it's a limitation" - Microsoft Tech Assistant
tcs@mailer.jhuapl.edu (Carl Schelin) (02/22/91)
In article <1991Feb21.055129.13472@athena.mit.edu>, mmshah@athena.mit.edu (Milan M Shah) says: > >>(havn't decided which yet). Why?? After all those years? Cuz MSC >>decided to go almost totally on line documentation. WHAT A WASTE! Way >Yes! Sorry if this is wasting bw, but maybe enough noise will knock some grey >into some skulls at MS. Online docs may be nifty neato, but only as a >compliment to printed docs. Also, how about including printed docs on HOW TO Hmmm, I would say that On-Line docs make it easier for pirates to copy the software. Why buy the software with the two manuals and On-Line help when you can call your local friendly Pirate BBS and download a full copy WITH DOCS! Sure makes it easier than typing them in. My biggest problem is that QH is not a TSR (like Norton Guides). I have to setup a macro to exit, load the mouse driver, execute QH, unload the mouse and return to my editor. Sure defeats the Quick Lookup feature of QH! I use the Norton Guides docs for TurboC++ 1.01 for all function references and if I have a problem compiling or with the graphics library (which I don't use much) then I break out the QH stuff or the idiot book I purchased. Of course, if you're running OS/2, QH is a "TSR". Carl Schelin tcs@mailer.jhuapl.edu
jdb@reef.cis.ufl.edu (Brian K. W. Hook) (02/22/91)
All I haev to say to the guy that just flamed the living hell out of Microsoft: AMEN. Brian
scott@blueeyes.kines.uiuc.edu (scott) (02/22/91)
In article <1991Feb18.180132.17072@cbnewsi.att.com> ejy@cbnewsi.att.com (eugene.yurek) writes: >From article <1991Feb18.165403.3938@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu>, by scott@blueeyes.kines.uiuc.edu (scott): >> >> My guess is that they make enough money selling the packages at the upgrade >> price that they don't have to be ultra-persnickety-careful about who they >> sell to. >> ... >> >Software manufacturers make MORE money by selling upgrades than by having >some other person (dealer, mail-order place, ...) sell the original product >for them. At $99.00, Borland makes $99.00 in-hand (less duplicating fees). >A product that costs $99.00 in the retail market probably makes the company >that wrote it $50.00 to $60.00 (or less). That makes sense. BTW, I ordered my copy of BC++ last thursday (Valentine's day, the first day I saw the reports on the net) and IT'S ALREADY HERE! IT ARRIVED YESTERDAY! Now that's what I call SERVICE! Way to go, Borland! BTW, I haven't had much of a chance to play with it, so I can't give much in the way of a report. I can say that it looks nifty, however! ;-) -- Scott Coleman tmkk@uiuc.edu "Unisys has demonstrated the power of two. That's their stock price today." - Scott McNealy on the history of mergers in the computer industry.
scott@blueeyes.kines.uiuc.edu (scott) (02/22/91)
In article <222@usna.NAVY.MIL> don@usna.navy.mil (Mr. Donald W. Garner (CADIG STAFF) <don@usna.navy.mil>) writes: >My Borland C++ 2.0 announcement indicated that "windows programming" was >required. When I called the 800 number the rep couldn't tell me if anything >other than Borland C++ 2.0 is required to generate complete MS Windows 3.0 >applications. OK, SDK is not required. I guess I need MS Windows 3.0 to >test applications. Is any part of the MS Windows 3.0 programming suite >required to generate complete MS Windows applications? No, BC++ 2.0 comes with everything you need to write Windows apps. It even has a special Windows version of Turbo Debugger. I have neither MSC nor the SDK, but I was able to compile and run the sample WinApps with no trouble. OK, I take that back - I had ONE slight problem (with the MicroSoft Resource Compiler that came with the package): I installed everything in the \BC subdirectory, instead of the default \BORLANDC subdirectory (I didn't want to have to type BORLANDC all the time - OK, so I'm lazy ;-) Unfortunately, this breaks the Resource Compiler, which says it can't find RCPP.ERR or some such file. This file resides in the \BORLANDC\BIN subdirectory under the default configuration, but of course on my system it resides in \BC\BIN, and this appears to be the cause of the problem. Copying the file to the same subdirectory as the program I am compiling allows RC to find this file, but there's got to be a better way. Unfortunately, none of the command line switches listed in the docs describe what to do about this error - anyone else run into this, and what did you do to fix it? -- Scott Coleman tmkk@uiuc.edu "Unisys has demonstrated the power of two. That's their stock price today." - Scott McNealy on the history of mergers in the computer industry.
rdippold@maui.qualcomm.com (Ron Dippold) (02/22/91)
In article <1991Feb21.055129.13472@athena.mit.edu> mmshah@athena.mit.edu (Milan M Shah) writes: >>(havn't decided which yet). Why?? After all those years? Cuz MSC >>decided to go almost totally on line documentation. WHAT A WASTE! Way >>to go Microsoft! Have you ever heard of refering to the docs WHILE >>programming? Oh that's right, you can do all that in PWB. WHO THE HELL > >Yes! Sorry if this is wasting bw, but maybe enough noise will knock some grey >into some skulls at MS. Online docs may be nifty neato, but only as a >compliment to printed docs. Also, how about including printed docs on HOW TO >USE QUICK HELP? It really does no good to have instructions on how to use >quickhelp by including it within quickhelp. My most recent battle - I needed to Actually, I think they're trying to grab more money from us... By providing completely inadequate documentation with their products (and this is not limited to MSC, check out such dogs as the W4W docs), they force you to go out and buy their Microsoft Press books on the damn thing. So they save themselves money on the software package, and they prop up their MS Press. "We don't care. We don't have to. We're MicroSoft." [with app. to Lilly Tomlin...]
randall@Virginia.EDU (Ran Atkinson) (02/22/91)
Below are a few open questions that aren't clearly answered in the
Borland upgrade offer notice and haven't been clearly addressed on
the net. If you already have a copy of Borland C++ and can give
a definitive answer, please either reply or followup to this posting.
Please try to refrain from speculation if you don't really know
for certain. Thanks.
1) Does the Borland C++ IDE run as a MS-Windows Application ??
2) If not, will it get along with Windows as a DOS application ??
3) Does the Borland Debugger run as a MS-Windows Application ??
4) Does the Borland Debugger debug any MS-Windows application,
or just those built with their tools ??
5) Does Borland C++ have a switch to generate DPMI Compliant binaries ??
6) Does Borland C++ have a switch to generate 386 Protected Mode binaries ??
7) Does Borland C++ have a switch to generate 386 real mode binaries ??
8) Does Borland ASM have a switch to generate DPMI Compliant binaries ??
9) Does Borland ASM have a switch to generate 386 Protected Mode binaries ??
10) Does Borland ASM have a switch to generate 386 real mode binaries ??
11) How much disk space does the whole thing take up ??
Ran Atkinson
randall@Virginia.EDUdsampson@x102a.harris-atd.com (sampson david 58163) (02/22/91)
In article <222@usna.NAVY.MIL> don@usna.navy.mil (Mr. Donald W. Garner (CADIG STAFF) <don@usna.navy.mil>) writes: My Borland C++ 2.0 announcement indicated that "windows programming" was required. When I called the 800 number the rep couldn't tell me if anything other than Borland C++ 2.0 is required to generate complete MS Windows 3.0 applications. OK, SDK is not required. I guess I need MS Windows 3.0 to test applications. Is any part of the MS Windows 3.0 programming suite required to generate complete MS Windows applications? Two things here: Borland C++ 2.0 will generate "regular" DOS programs just like Turbo C++, or at YOUR option, you can write a program that will be a true windows application (as opposed to a "dos" program running out of a window). You DO NOT need to buy MS' SDK. Borland supplies everything you need (except a tutorial on how to write windows programs. You need to buy the Charles Petzold book for that (~1000 pages, BEST tutorial on the market)). Borland SUGGESTS that you may want to buy one or more of the SDK manuals that are available from MS Press and can be found in Walton's, Dalton's, etc. However, they do ship a BIG file that is a SDK library reference manual that can be called up through the IDE help facility (just hit F1). Once you've learned how to write a windows program and have successfully compiled it, you will need Windows 3.0 to run it. No way around that ..... -- A new world record in the javalin throw / / / I ------------------------------------------------- David Sampson Harris Corporation dsampson@x102a.ess.harris.com Gov't Aerospace Systems Divison uunet!x102a!dsampson Melbourne, Florida -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
elliot@encore.com (Elliot Mednick) (02/23/91)
Now all Borland has to do is offer the same switchover incentive, a la dbase->paradox and 1-2-3->quatro, for MSC->BC++! (They don't yet, I asked.) Now, does anyone know why Borland would price BC++ at $495 when anyone can buy TC++ pro for $150 (I've actually seen prices as low as $55 on the net) and then the upgrade for $99: total price $250 or less? __ Elliot Mednick (elliot@encore.com) | This .signature file is undergoing Encore Computer Corp. | remodeling for your convenience. Marlborough, MA. 01752 | Please pardon our appearance.
wolf@netcom.COM (Phil Escobar) (02/23/91)
randall@Virginia.EDU (Ran Atkinson) writes: >1) Does the Borland C++ IDE run as a MS-Windows Application ?? >2) If not, will it get along with Windows as a DOS application ?? >3) Does the Borland Debugger run as a MS-Windows Application ?? I can cover these first three: 1) the IDE is NOT a true Windows application. It's nearly identical to the IDE in Turbo C++, with the addition of several new compiler options. 2) the IDE will work just fine in a DOS window, and that is the recommended way to use it. 3) the debugger IS a Windows app, but it doesn't run in a window (go figure) Also, Borland ships a bunch of neat Windows development utilities with the new C++ that put the Windows SDK tool to shame. - Phil @ Buckskin Technologies
rdippold@maui.qualcomm.com (Ron Dippold) (02/23/91)
In article <14123@encore.Encore.COM> elliot@encore.com writes: >Now, does anyone know why Borland would price BC++ at $495 when anyone >can buy TC++ pro for $150 (I've actually seen prices as low as $55 on >the net) and then the upgrade for $99: total price $250 or less? >__ The $495 is really only list price, I don't imagine you'll find anyone paying that, except the Federal Government or some businesses. I know the list price for TC++ Pro is higher than $150... Either way, they make money. They'll probably make almost (or more) money on your $99 upgrade as they will selling the $495 package to the dealer.
kgallagh@digi.lonestar.org (Kevin Gallagher) (02/23/91)
In article <1991Feb20.130922.11605@DRD.Com> tdh@DRD.Com (Tom Haynes) writes: >The thing that I liked about Borland is that they learn from their >mistakes. If you recall, the upgrade from TC 2.0 Professional to >TC++ 1.0 Professional did not include the Assembler manual. They >said that it hadn't changed that much, and you could use the other >one. By not sending the new manual, they were able to offer the >upgrade at such a low price. > >They caught alot of flack on this. I really didn't like it when >they offered upgrades to people with other compiliers for the >same price I paid. Did they not get the Assembler manual? > >Anyway, when I called for my upgrade, I asked them if I got all >the manuals, and the customer service rep said "Yes, we learned >our lesson." See if Microsoft does this for you. Actually, Borland announced that it was NOT offering TC++ 1.0 as an upgrade to TC 2.0 owners. Instead, it would offer TC 2.0 owners a special price. It Borland's mind, the path from TC to TC++ was NOT an upgrade, but the purchase of entirely new product. So the special price to TC 2.0 owners was for the purchase of the entire TC++ package. Now, if you owned TC Professional and wanted to buy TC++ Professional, then the offer here got a little muddy. Most thought that they were being offered a special price to purchase the entire new TC++ Professional package. However, Borland viewed the debugger and assembler components as upgrades, while the TC++ component was not. The only problem is that they did not tell anyone until people started complaining that the package arrived with two manuals missing. Borland even confused its own people over this. Very shortly after TC++ 1.0 shipped, Borland saw the light and established a policy to ship the missing manuals to any TC++ 1.0 Professional special price purchaser who complained about not getting a complete package. -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Kevin Gallagher kgallagh@digi.lonestar.org OR ...!uunet!digi!kgallagh DSC Communications Corporation Addr: MS 152, 1000 Coit Rd, Plano, TX 75075 ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
mcastle@mcs213f.cs.umr.edu (Mike Castle {Nexus}) (02/24/91)
In article <HOLLEN.91Feb15125427@fridge.megatek.UUCP> hollen@megatek.UUCP (Dion Hollenbeck) writes: >I just received an update card good for Turbo C to Turbo C++ 2.0. >When I called to find out if I upgraded if I could sell my >Turbo C and transfer the registration, they were more than happy >to take my order today. > >By the way, they say that NO you cannot sell the old version >when you upgrade. "Either destroy it or put it on the shelf." What about transferring (giving away) the license? I regularly give away my old copies of compilers when I upgrade. Sure, they can't upgrade, but what the heck. I have no use for it. With all the pro-Borland posts, how about we create alt.fans.borland?? :-> -- Mike Castle (Nexus) S087891@UMRVMA.UMR.EDU (preferred) | XEDIT: Emacs mcastle@mcs213k.cs.umr.edu (unix mail-YEACH!)| on a REAL Life is like a clock: You can work constantly, and be right | operating all the time, or not work at all, and be right twice a day. | system. :->
tcs@mailer.jhuapl.edu (Carl Schelin) (02/25/91)
In article <1991Feb23.001537.23903@qualcomm.com>, rdippold@maui.qualcomm.com (Ron Dippold) says: > >In article <14123@encore.Encore.COM> elliot@encore.com writes: >>Now, does anyone know why Borland would price BC++ at $495 when anyone >>can buy TC++ pro for $150 (I've actually seen prices as low as $55 on >>the net) and then the upgrade for $99: total price $250 or less? >>__ > >The $495 is really only list price, I don't imagine you'll find anyone >paying that, except the Federal Government or some businesses. I know the >list price for TC++ Pro is higher than $150... > >Either way, they make money. They'll probably make almost (or more) money >on your $99 upgrade as they will selling the $495 package to the dealer. I think you can get the upgrade for free if you purchased TC++pro recently. Of course, I don't have the upgrade instructions handy and am going by the MSC upgrade instructions and memory. Actually, the Federal Government probably pays less than just about anyone short of student discount or employee discount. I purchased TC++ for $50 as an employee of a reseller and the FG gets theirs on GSA schedule for about 10% under dealer cost. (MSC6.0 can be had for 317 locally and 279 from the reseller (+4.5% +5% of cost), employee purchase of 119. The GSA price would be about 250 or so.) Disclaimer: Since I don't work for that company any more, everything is from current contacts and memory. Nothing should be taken as fact nor used as a bargaining chip with dealing with resellers. Carl Schelin tcs@mailer.jhuapl.edu
pyro@casbah.acns.nwu.edu (Leedell Miller) (02/26/91)
Well, I'd LOVE to upgrade. I registered Turbo C v1.5 and Turbo Pascal v4.0
as soon as they were purchased.... Since this, I have received NO mail
from Borland, whatsoever. Now, looking at TP6 and BC++, I would like to
upgrade to both. Now, what's that 800 number, anyway?
--
"I've abandoned my search for reality and am looking for a good fantasy."
"One nuclear bomb can ruin your whole day"
| Leedell Miller - Academic Computing
INTERNET: pyro@casbah.acns.nwu.edu | Northwestern University - Evanston, IL yeates@motcid.UUCP (Tony J Yeates) (02/27/91)
dsampson@x102a.harris-atd.com (sampson david 58163) writes: > The windows debugger IS a windows >application, and YES!!! you can debug with only one monitor. However >they tell you in the manual that if you're using VGA, they support >standard VGA, not super or the psuedo 8514 resolution you can get with >the drivers floating around now. Pardon my ignorance, but I thought a major benefit of windows applications was that they used library routines which make them display-independent. (...or was the author refering to the DOS debugger?). Other windows applications seem to run on anything as long as it has a windows driver.. whats the deal with the debugger?
bruno@sdcc10.ucsd.edu (Bruce W. Mohler) (02/27/91)
In article <1991Feb25.123405.27414@aplcen.apl.jhu.edu> tcs@mailer.jhuapl.edu (Carl Schelin) writes: > >I think you can get the upgrade for free if you purchased TC++pro recently. Of >course, I don't have the upgrade instructions handy and am going by the MSC >upgrade instructions and memory. > >Carl Schelin >tcs@mailer.jhuapl.edu Actually the cost is about $24 (plus handling charges and tax). I was in this condition (recent convert from MS C and QC) and had just ordered TC++ Pro. I just ordered my upgrade yesterday. Bruce -- Bruce W. Mohler Systems Programmer (aka Staff Analyst) bruno@sdcc10.ucsd.edu voice: 619-586-2218
bcw@rti.rti.org (Bruce Wright) (02/28/91)
In article <5907@iron6.UUCP>, yeates@motcid.UUCP (Tony J Yeates) writes: > dsampson@x102a.harris-atd.com (sampson david 58163) writes: > > The windows debugger IS a windows > >application, and YES!!! you can debug with only one monitor. However > >they tell you in the manual that if you're using VGA, they support > >standard VGA, not super or the psuedo 8514 resolution you can get with > >the drivers floating around now. > > Pardon my ignorance, but I thought a major benefit of windows applications > was that they used library routines which make them display-independent. > (...or was the author refering to the DOS debugger?). Other windows > applications seem to run on anything as long as it has a windows driver.. > whats the deal with the debugger? Windows does hide the low-level implementation details from a program, so if the program works on one display device it's likely to do something at least slightly useful on another display device rather than just die like some DOS apps that encounter display devices that they don't know how to deal with. Unfortunately that's not quite the same as device independence. It is quite possible for a Windows program to get hold of the _logical_ structure of the display device; in fact for advanced graphics it's practically essential. For example, Windows allows a program to be aware of the pixel (width, height, bit planes) and physical (width, height, aspect ratio) attributes of the display device; this allows you to write programs that can work great on one device and yet do inappropriate things on another (such as choosing the wrong size fonts or inappropriate sizes or aspect ratios for various objects, or relying on colors that don't exist, etc). This sort of thing can mean that although the program does _something_ on a display device for which it wasn't intended, it doesn't do something very _useful_. This isn't to say that that's the usual case with Windows programs; just that it's possible. Most Windows programs probably don't have problems like this, but the more sophisticated programs (graphically speaking, not necessarily sophisticated in other ways) are the ones that are more likely to be doing fancy things and are therefore more likely to have problems. And of course poorly-written programs of any level of sophistication will have more problems than well-written programs. Even Microsoft isn't immune: try running Reversi on a CGA-resolution screen sometime. Perhaps there are problems of this type with the debugger, or perhaps they just don't want to commit themselves to fixing any problems at this time because they haven't had the time to test it sufficiently for their satisfaction. Or maybe they're replacing some of the low- level drivers for the device and haven't written this one yet (shudder), though offhand I don't see why that should be necessary. Bruce C. Wright
jim@shograf.COM (jim morris) (02/28/91)
From article <5907@iron6.UUCP>, by yeates@motcid.UUCP (Tony J Yeates): > dsampson@x102a.harris-atd.com (sampson david 58163) writes: >> The windows debugger IS a windows >>application, and YES!!! you can debug with only one monitor. However >>they tell you in the manual that if you're using VGA, they support >>standard VGA, not super or the psuedo 8514 resolution you can get with >>the drivers floating around now. > > Pardon my ignorance, but I thought a major benefit of windows applications > was that they used library routines which make them display-independent. > .... Well the BC++ debugger does run when windows is running, but it is not actually a windows application, its more like a DOS application that is being very friendly with windows. It runs full screen and looks and feels exactly like it does running under DOS. I don't know exactly what they have done, but it is NOT a windows App therefore it is not display independent like a windows App. I actually tried to run it while in 800x600 mode, it runs fine... But windows is screwed up when you exit as the video mode has been changed to character mode not graphics, and windows doesn't realise this and therefore doesn't reset the 800x600 mode. Still its a lot better than no debugger at all!! its even better than running a debugger on a separate system (Which you can still do). Still playing so can't review it yet..... Jim -- Jim Morris, E-Mail: jim@shograf.com Voice: (415) 903-3887 _ SHO graphics. Practical PEX
wallis@sieras.enet.dec.com (Barry L. Wallis) (03/01/91)
In article <553@shograf.COM>, jim@shograf.COM (jim morris) writes... >Well the BC++ debugger does run when windows is running, but it is >not actually a windows application, its more like a DOS application >that is being very friendly with windows. It runs full screen and looks >and feels exactly like it does running under DOS. I don't know exactly what >they have done, but it is NOT a windows App therefore it is not display >independent like a windows App. I actually tried to run it while >in 800x600 mode, it runs fine... But windows is screwed up when you exit >as the video mode has been changed to character mode not graphics, and windows >doesn't realise this and therefore doesn't reset the 800x600 mode. > I am new to Windows programming and am using Borland C++ to get started. I noticed that when I leave the debugger the Active Title Bar (is that what it's called?) has changed from grey (or whatever the default color is) to maroon. Any idea on how to stop this? Alternatively, is there anything I can do to change it back (short of exiting windows). This is a BOCA EGA 286 systems with 2MB of extended memory. --- Barry L. Wallis USENET: wallis@labc.dec.com Database Consultant Prodigy (don't laugh): DNMX41A U.S. DECtp Resource Center DECUServe: EISNER::WALLIS (not on the net yet) Los Angeles, CA "No one voted for me, I represent myself" ---
dsampson@x102a.harris-atd.com (sampson david 58163) (03/01/91)
Actually, I mis-led you on one point. The Turbo Debugger for windows
is NOT actually a windows application the way Notepad is. You DO
start it up by double clicking the icon and you don't need a PIF file
like you do with conventional DOS programs. So Turbo Debugger is sort
of half way in between a conventional DOS application and a windows
application.
When you fire up TD for W, it runs in full screen and looks like the
"regular" Turbo Debugger, that is it is rows and columns of text, not
a windows program with a main window etc. However, it definitely
debugs your windows code and let's you switch between your windows app
that's being debugged and the TD screen with a key-stroke (can't
remember if it was Alt-F5, or what).
Borland states in their docs that the "regular" TD supports cga, ega,
vga, super VGA, and so forth. But to use TD for Windows in VGA mode
you must stay with the conventional (i.e. MS supplied) VGA driver for
windows, not one supplied by your card vendor.
--
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David Sampson Harris Corporation
dsampson@x102a.ess.harris.com Gov't Aerospace Systems Divison
uunet!x102a!dsampson Melbourne, Florida
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------bright@nazgul.UUCP (Walter Bright) (03/05/91)
/I sent in my upgrade certificate. It had 2 boxes to check. One is an upgrade /from TC++ for $149.95, and the other from TC++ Pro for $99.95. Why they even /bother to offer the $149 one is beyond me. /I guess they just take your word for it. /I recently got an offer to get W4W at a discount price if you own some other /competing word processor. All they want is your signature stating that you /currently own one of the mentioned packages. No proof or anything. It sure is a far cry from the days of copy protection. The world is a nicer place if one's word is accepted at face value.