oneel@heawk1.rosserv.gsfc.nasa.gov ( Bruce Oneel ) (03/03/91)
So, a second look at BC++ 2.0 a few days after I got it. I got it to do windows programming. Other attributes aren't useful to me now. But first, the machine (Don't laugh) ps/2 m25, 8mhz 8086, 20meg 35ms hd, in all fairness to everyone involved, not the recommended system. Sidney@borland.com recommended that I put REALMODE in all of my .DEF files, but this is unsupported as of yet. The default is PROTMODE and I'm not running PROTMODE because of my hardware. I compiled and ran the following supplied borland example windows programs. FFIND. A c program. Compiled and ran with no problems. It finds files under windows. Kind of neat. HDUMP. A c program. Compiled ok, ran just fine except for the about menu selection which crashed my machine. It looks like LIST in the Alt-h mode. MSGWND/TSTAPP. C programs. Didn't work, don't remember why. TODO. C++ programs. Didn't compile, ran out of memory but sure did take a long time. It finally ran out after about an hour. DDL*. C++ programs? (I've deleted them) Compiled OK, but big red switch time. Unknown reason. WHELLO C++ program. Compiled and ran perfectly. So, so far pretty good. In general things seem to work and with time I could probably fix the above problems. My copy didn't come with either the help compiler or the Petzold book. The help compiler is supposed to be on its way. Since I upgraded I get a 33% discount for the Petzold book but I already bought it for $21 at a local discount book store. It lists for $30. In general I'm impressed that with as small a system as I have it still works with windows programming. It really isn't as slow as you would think either... bruce -- | Bruce O'Neel | internet : oneel@heasfs.gsfc.nasa.gov| | Code 664/STX | span : lheavx::oneel | | NASA/GSFC |compuserve: 72737,1315 | | Greenbelt MD 20771 | AT&Tnet : (301)-286-1119 |
cadsi@ccad.uiowa.edu (CADSI) (03/04/91)
From article <ONEEL.91Mar2115359@heawk1.rosserv.gsfc.nasa.gov>, by oneel@heawk1.rosserv.gsfc.nasa.gov ( Bruce Oneel ): > So, a second look at BC++ 2.0 a few days after I got it. I got it to > do windows programming. Other attributes aren't useful to me now. > I agree. Time for a second look, particurlarly since i pseudo-flamed Borland in my first look. Second look looks better. I have converted a rather large program from C to C++ (I wrote C a lot like C++ in order to facilitate this early in the design). Borland C++ has done an excellent job. I have to admit once again that I am NOT it awe at this package. Its just another tool, probably not worth all the articles its getting. Its a good package, but I still think the SDK is required, that is unless someone will tell me how to use the Borland Help Compiler. I haven't found one. On the speed of compiles?? I think I was wrong earlier, its still screams. It was the windows.h file that slowed things. I should have expected MickeySoft to slow Borland. Such is life. Parting comments: Good stuff for $110 (shipping counts) upgrade or $260 for the package for smart buyers (get the earlier version and upgrade). Wish list: PLEASE MAKE 32 BIT CODE!!!!! I Can't stand much more of MicroWay C++. Tom Hite
oneel@heawk1.rosserv.gsfc.nasa.gov ( Bruce Oneel ) (03/05/91)
Concerning the borland help compiler. Its on the way according to Borland on CI$. It is really microsoft's help compiler which was held up in legal discussions. It should be sent in 3-4 weeks to all the users who got early copies of BC++. bruce -- | Bruce O'Neel | internet : oneel@heasfs.gsfc.nasa.gov| | Code 664/STX | span : lheavx::oneel | | NASA/GSFC |compuserve: 72737,1315 | | Greenbelt MD 20771 | AT&Tnet : (301)-286-1119 |
ebergman@isis.cs.du.edu (Eric Bergman-Terrell) (03/07/91)
Where is the Help compiler for BC++ 2.0 - it's in the mail. It is supposed to be sent to registered users within a month or so. Negotiations for the help compiler weren't complete when the package was shipped. About windows.h slowing things down - use the precompiled headers option! I haven't bothered yet because my application, which includes windows.h still doesn't take more that about 20 - 30 seconds to compile & link. While everyone is saying that you "have to get the SDK to develop applications in BC++ 2.0" I'm developing applications without it. SO WHAT's THE DEAL: What is in the MS Windows SDK that isn't available in the BC++ 2.0 PACKAGE??????? Books on Windows Programming (yes - but I bought Petzold's for $30.00) WHAT ELSE??? Terrell
tcs@mailer.jhuapl.edu (Carl Schelin) (03/08/91)
In article <1991Mar7.151918.21996@isis.cs.du.edu>, ebergman@isis.cs.du.edu (Eric Bergman-Terrell) says: >While everyone is saying that you "have to get the SDK to develop applications >in BC++ 2.0" I'm developing applications without it. > >SO WHAT's THE DEAL: What is in the MS Windows SDK that isn't available in >the BC++ 2.0 PACKAGE??????? > >Books on Windows Programming (yes - but I bought Petzold's for $30.00) > >WHAT ELSE??? I have the SDK here. It comes with 6 manuals, 10 720k disks, 6 1.2M disks and the option to send off for 360k disks. Manuals: Tools Reference - Volume 1 Reference - Volume 2 Guide to Programming SAA CUA Advanced Interface Design Guide Installation and Update Guide The software takes about 8M on my disk. 1.9M of that is the Windows Advisor Help file and 767k is the QH Help file. Tools: The Resource Compiler SDKPaint The Dialog Editor The Font Editor CodeView for Windows Symbolic Debugger 80386 Debugger Spy Heap Walker Shaker Profiler Help Compiler Please, I'm no expert on the SDK. If you need help, subscribe to the comp.windows.ms or comp.windows.programming group. If you E-Mail me, I probably won't be able to help. I'm still learning it myself. Thanks Carl Schelin
tom@mims-iris.waterloo.edu (Tom Haapanen) (03/08/91)
ebergman@isis.cs.du.edu (Eric Bergman-Terrell) says: > SO WHAT's THE DEAL: What is in the MS Windows SDK that isn't available in > the BC++ 2.0 PACKAGE??????? > Books on Windows Programming (yes - but I bought Petzold's for $30.00) All right, so Petzold's book is (one of) the best. But I still would not attempt any sort of serious Windows programming without the two-volume SDK reference and the Guide to Programming. Petzold does not cover everything (such as multiple-selection listboxes), and it's certainly no reference manual. Of course, all of the above are available separately for Borland C++ owners. [ \tom haapanen --- university of waterloo --- tom@mims-iris.waterloo.edu ] [ "i don't even know what street canada is on" -- al capone ]
cadsi@ccad.uiowa.edu (CADSI) (03/08/91)
From article <1991Mar7.151918.21996@isis.cs.du.edu>, by ebergman@isis.cs.du.edu (Eric Bergman-Terrell): > > Where is the Help compiler for BC++ 2.0 - it's in the mail. It is supposed > to be sent to registered users within a month or so. Negotiations for the > help compiler weren't complete when the package was shipped. The checks in the mail. The product is not yet complete. How long can a lawyer take???? I don't like to think about it. > About windows.h slowing things down - use the precompiled headers option! Quite right. I really MUST get used to this idea. > While everyone is saying that you "have to get the SDK to develop applications > in BC++ 2.0" I'm developing applications without it. I've seen many applications, one being the ever so famous WinQVT program, die miserably when running the Debug version of the Windows kernel. Please tell me how to run the Debug version of the Windows kernels without the SDK???? Is this important???? Absolutely. Borland's Debugger does NOT catch all protection faults. If you know please post it. I keep looking for it in Borland's stuff. I would just love to sell my SDK, but as yet, I still need it. > Books on Windows Programming (yes - but I bought Petzold's for $30.00) This in itself proves that Borland C++ is not the all encompassing Windows development system. You gotta buy more, maybe not the SDK, but more anyway. > SO WHAT's THE DEAL: What is in the MS Windows SDK that isn't available in > the BC++ 2.0 PACKAGE??????? So far, Windows Documentation and a Help compiler, and the DEBUG version of the Windows Kernel. Don't take offense to all this PLEASE. I just think these are important facts that are not listed by Borland when reading their propoganda. Besides, its just a business product they want to sell. I want the MOST for my money. They generally deliver.
greg@turbo.atl.ga.us (Greg Montgomery) (03/10/91)
cadsi@ccad.uiowa.edu (CADSI) writes: > I've seen many applications, one being the ever so famous WinQVT > program, die miserably when running the Debug version of > the Windows kernel. Please tell me how to run the Debug version of the > Windows kernels without the SDK???? Is this important???? Absolutely. What is the debug version of Windows?? What does it do different from the regular Windows?? ---- Greg Montgomery | Montgomery Consultants, Inc. | Atlanta, Georgia, U.S.A Internet: greg@turbo.atl.ga.us | Home of the '96 UUCP: {rutgers,ogcise,gatech}!emory!turbo!greg | Olympics!
brent@well.sf.ca.us (Brent Southard) (03/11/91)
In article <1991Mar7.151918.21996@isis.cs.du.edu> ebergman@isis.UUCP (Eric Bergman-Terrell) writes: > >SO WHAT's THE DEAL: What is in the MS Windows SDK that isn't available in >the BC++ 2.0 PACKAGE??????? > >WHAT ELSE??? Probably the most important feature to a Windows developer: the Debugging Windows kernel. I'm constantly amazed at how many shareware and commercial programs were obviously developed without it. While I love the Borland product, I will continue to use the SDK for this feature alone. brent -- brent southard (313) 643-1971 | usenet: ...!well!brent ImageTech Corp (313) 353-7900 | bix: brent "When frog licking is outlawed, only outlaws will lick frogs."
poffen@sj.ate.slb.com (Russ Poffenberger) (03/12/91)
In article <1991Mar7.151918.21996@isis.cs.du.edu> ebergman@isis.UUCP (Eric Bergman-Terrell) writes: > >Where is the Help compiler for BC++ 2.0 - it's in the mail. It is supposed >to be sent to registered users within a month or so. Negotiations for the >help compiler weren't complete when the package was shipped. > >About windows.h slowing things down - use the precompiled headers option! >I haven't bothered yet because my application, which includes windows.h still >doesn't take more that about 20 - 30 seconds to compile & link. > >While everyone is saying that you "have to get the SDK to develop applications >in BC++ 2.0" I'm developing applications without it. > >SO WHAT's THE DEAL: What is in the MS Windows SDK that isn't available in >the BC++ 2.0 PACKAGE??????? > >Books on Windows Programming (yes - but I bought Petzold's for $30.00) > >WHAT ELSE??? > You DO NOT need the SDK to build windows applications with BC++. I finally got around to installing BC++ on the weekend and I like it. The pre-compiled headers (-H compiler switch) helps a lot. I also tried TDW (Turbo Debugger for Windows) and it is pretty neat too. Better than CVW. I have yet to understand though why even though I use TDW with a secondary monochrome monitor instead of screen switching (-do switch to TDW), it messes up my primary VGA colors. I have heard that screen switching on the primary VGA will mess up colors if don't use a standard driver (I use V7 Fastwrite 800 X 600 X 16), but if I use the mono monitor for debugging, it seems it shouldn't mess up my VGA. Oh well, I can live with it. One note on the installation for users who also have other packages. I also have Turbo C++ 1.0 Pro. I didn't change my path correctly so that my BC++ directory was before my TC++ directory. This caused problems because it used the wrong tlink. (BC tlink is 4.0, TC tlink is 3.5). This may cause problems for othe "pro" packages that are in both TC++ and BC++ as well. I also had some problems because I also have SDK, and the SDK path was also before BC++. I got some unexplained errors from rc (another duplicate program name don't ya know.) that cleared up when I made sure my BC path was before all other development paths. I also got a newsletter from Borland. It had some interesting information, and an example of some classes for windows. It has an application class, a font class, and a base windows class. I was able to get the example working, and made a few mods to it. It makes the "main" part of the program only about 10 lines for a simple application that opens two windows and writes a "hello" message. Should be a good starting point for other classes. I got mail from Sidney at Borland. The Petzold book coupon will definitely come with the help compiler. Pretty good so far. I think we ought to encourage the sharing of ideas about Windows class libraries. Any comments? Russ Poffenberger DOMAIN: poffen@sj.ate.slb.com Schlumberger Technologies UUCP: {uunet,decwrl,amdahl}!sjsca4!poffen 1601 Technology Drive CIS: 72401,276 San Jose, Ca. 95110 (408)437-5254
cadsi@ccad.uiowa.edu (CADSI) (03/12/91)
From article <7DoLy6w163w@turbo.atl.ga.us>, by greg@turbo.atl.ga.us (Greg Montgomery): > cadsi@ccad.uiowa.edu (CADSI) writes: > > > What is the debug version of Windows?? What does it do different from > the regular Windows?? The Debug kernels of Windows replace krnl286.exe, krnl386.exe and the user.exe pieces of the Windows SYSTEM directory. The debug versions of these have significantly enhanced error checking so even miniscule bugs in a program are caught by Windows. This allow early detection of problems not possible without (or at least almost impossible anyway) the Debug kernels. These kernels come ONLY with the MS SDK. Tom Hite
mmshah@athena.mit.edu (Milan M Shah) (03/12/91)
In article <7DoLy6w163w@turbo.atl.ga.us> greg@turbo.atl.ga.us writes: >cadsi@ccad.uiowa.edu (CADSI) writes: > >> I've seen many applications, one being the ever so famous WinQVT >> program, die miserably when running the Debug version of >> the Windows kernel. Please tell me how to run the Debug version of the >> Windows kernels without the SDK???? Is this important???? Absolutely. > >What is the debug version of Windows?? What does it do different from >the regular Windows?? > >---- >Greg Montgomery | Montgomery Consultants, Inc. | Atlanta, Georgia, U.S.A Yes! I can't believe how many applications die when run under the Debug version of Windows. The Debug version of windows is a version of windows that comes with the SDK. It is exactly like the 'regular' windows, except it comes with certain symbol tables for the modules that make up windows, *and it has checking built in to warn of certain error conditions.* For example, if one tries to delete a StockObject like the White Brush, the regular windows will shrug its shoulders and go on its merry way, perhaps to later die in a totally bizarre way. The debug version of windows will try to write to the infamous aux port and indicate in its own lucid hexadecimal manner where the problem is. WinQVT, which I patiently downloaded, dies when I try to quit. Meaning it completely hangs, three finger salute time. Also, the wsmooth 'utility' that was published in PC Mag some moons ago deleted stock objects all over the place. I couldn't believe the thing was actually printed in a Mag of some reputation. (I did fix that one, and shipped it to some users on the net). What's amazing is that all these pre BC++ apps were obviously developed using SDK + MSC 6.00. All these developers had to do was type in n2d at their prompt! This would have switched them to the debug versions, and they would have easily developed more robust versions of their apps. Oh well. Milan .
ebergman@isis.cs.du.edu (Eric Bergman-Terrell) (03/13/91)
About the Windows Debugging Kernel: What sorts of bugs does it typically find? On what sorts of machines would the bugs actually cause a problem - or which configurations? Terrell
cadsi@ccad.uiowa.edu (CADSI) (03/13/91)
From article <1991Mar13.144040.16579@isis.cs.du.edu>, by ebergman@isis.cs.du.edu (Eric Bergman-Terrell): > > About the Windows Debugging Kernel: What sorts of bugs does it typically > find? On what sorts of machines would the bugs actually cause a problem - > or which configurations? one of the most common is the DeleteObject call on stock object. Non debugging kernel will allow this and die later in unexplainable ways. The particular machine doesn't really matter unless you are writing code that will be specific, say to 386 enhanced mode. |----------------------------------------------------------------------------| |Tom Hite | The views expressed by me | |Manager, Product development | are mine, not necessarily | |CADSI (Computer Aided Design Software Inc. | the views of CADSI. | |----------------------------------------------------------------------------|
ebergman@isis.cs.du.edu (Eric Bergman-Terrell) (03/15/91)
I too am impressed with BC++ for Windows. However on the negative side - the system cannot be used to build applications that work reliably in real mode, which is unsupported by Borland. Do they have plans to support real mode in the future? Is there a way to make a program gracefully exit if in real mode? My application crashes in real mode when I put up a dialog box - makes me wondor how I can put up a "std or enh mode required" dialog box" if the program is run from real mode??? Terrell
brent@well.sf.ca.us (Brent Southard) (03/19/91)
In article <1991Mar15.151217.20838@isis.cs.du.edu> ebergman@isis.UUCP (Eric Bergman-Terrell) writes: > >Do they have plans to support real mode in the future? Is there a way to >make a program gracefully exit if in real mode? My application crashes >in real mode when I put up a dialog box - makes me wondor how I can put >up a "std or enh mode required" dialog box" if the program is run from >real mode??? You can limit your application to protected mode operation by using the -T switch of the resource compiler (rc.exe). Windows will display a message to the user if he tries to run in real mode. Brent -- brent southard (313) 643-1971 | usenet: ...!well!brent ImageTech Corp (313) 353-7900 | bix: brent "When frog licking is outlawed, only outlaws will lick frogs."
thorp@spudge.UUCP (Don Thorp) (03/19/91)
To mark an application for standard or enhanced mode only, use the /t switch on the resource compiler. Windows then takes care of displaying the message box for you. Don