peter@world.std.com (Peter Salus) (10/19/90)
Dan Davidson asked several quite disjunct queries in his posting. Not wanting to get into an argument of any sort, let me try to answer them factually. (1) The exhibits-only admission in San Jose will be $15. It wasn't in the brochure because it's an on-site, not pre-registration fee. (2) SUG isn't "Sun's User Group," it is the Sun User Group,Inc. If it were a "captive" group -- like DECUS, for example -- it could have free (subsidized) memberships. (3) Dan may feel the fees are extravagant, but the tutorials are the same as those at Sun Expo and less than those at USENIX or UNIX Expo. I don't have too many booklets on my desk, but the C++ conference in New Jersey last month was $895 for the conference, $350 for a full-day tutorial. That's over double what the SUGFest fee is in either category. In 1989, 40% of SUG's income and about 12% of its operating revenue came from the Anaheim meeting. -- The difference between practice and theory in practice is always greater than the difference between practice and theory in theory.
davison@menudo.uh.edu (Dan Davison) (10/20/90)
In article <1990Oct19.152134.22517@world.std.com> peter@world.std.com (Peter Salus) writes: Dan Davidson asked several quite disjunct queries in his posting. Not wanting to get into an argument of any sort, let me try to answer them factually. "Davison", and on the argument, agreed. (1) The exhibits-only admission in San Jose will be $15. It wasn't in the brochure because it's an on-site, not pre-registration fee. It would have been very useful to have this information before now, and I would suggest that this information be part of next year's SUG meeeting announcements. (2) SUG isn't "Sun's User Group," it is the Sun User Group,Inc. A *careful* reading of page 10 (of the unpaginated full annoucement -- counting the cover as page 1) *strongly* suggests otherwise. If it were a "captive" group -- like DECUS, for example -- it could have free (subsidized) memberships. The presence or absence of "subsidized" memberships was not what I had in mind. (3) Dan may feel the fees are extravagant, but the tutorials are the same as those at Sun Expo and less than those at USENIX or UNIX Expo. [...]. In 1989, 40% of SUG's income and about 12% of its operating revenue came from the Anaheim meeting. We don't really disagree here. The SUG meeting is the primary source o income for the SUG and as such *steps should be taken to maximize that income*. We have just had a posting in this newsgroup about the expenses the SUG has taken on, limiting (for now) the ability of the SUG to support other things, such as the Sun-Spots Digest. However, to state my postion again, and hopefully more clearly, if the cost of registration were in the $200-$250 range, more people would be able to attend. This means more dollars for the SUG. This is especially relevant for independent consultants and those working for small companies who cannot afford a kilobuck or two per employee for the current SUG meeting. The fees cited by Peter are clearly aimed a companies with deep pockets. Deep pockets may have been the rule in the past, but I'll bet registrations would greatly increase with more reasonable fees. Even the government is cutting back on travel expenses! More registrations mean more money for the SUG. Lastly, I did not mean to suggest that the tutorial fees were out of line; I thought, and I only meant to refer to the registration fee. The tutorial fees seem to me, at least, to be reasonable very reasonable. dan davison davison@uh.edu -- dr. dan davison/dept. of biochemical and biophysical sciences/univ. of Houston/4800 Calhoun/Houston,TX 77054-5500/davison@uh.edu/DAVISON@UHOU "Comparing bad weather to rape: 'if it's inevitable, just relax and enjoy it'" Clayton Williams, next Governor of Texas...and THIS is the kind of person and attitute most Texans find acceptable...in 1990...very sad. Disclaimer: As always, I speak only for myself, and, usually, only to myself.
phil@eecs.nwu.edu (William LeFebvre) (10/22/90)
In article <1990Oct20.045519.24747@lavaca.uh.edu>, davison@menudo.uh.edu (Dan Davison) writes: |> (2) SUG isn't "Sun's User Group," it is the Sun User |> Group,Inc. |> |>A *careful* reading of page 10 (of the unpaginated full annoucement -- |>counting the cover as page 1) *strongly* suggests otherwise. Page 10 as I count it is a *PRELIMINARY* list of exhibitors. Careful reading of that page isn't going to give you much more than eye strain. Since it is preliminary (they unfortunately used the term "alpha"), it is subject to change (both additions and removals). |>This is especially relevant for independent consultants and those |>working for small companies who cannot afford a kilobuck or two per |>employee for the current SUG meeting. The fees cited by Peter are |>clearly aimed a companies with deep pockets. Deep pockets may have |>been the rule in the past, but I'll bet registrations would greatly |>increase with more reasonable fees. Even the government is cutting |>back on travel expenses! Prices were set, plans were made, brochures went to press long before Hussein went to Kuwait. The cutbacks in travel caused by the current economic problems could not have been forseen. I, for one, am somewhat concernced that that will have a negative impact on attendance. But there's not a whole lot that we can do about that now. |>More registrations mean more money for the SUG. It's a classic economics problem. Don't forget that there is a fixed cost AND a per person cost. Lowering the price may bring in more people, but that incurs more expenses (more lunches for example). Once again, I am only speaking for myself. William LeFebvre
taylor@limbo.Intuitive.Com (Dave Taylor) (10/23/90)
Peter Salus notes: >(3) Dan may feel the fees [at SUG] are extravagant, but the tutorials are > the same as those at Sun Expo and less than those at USENIX or UNIX Expo. It's worth pointing out that at least SunExpo and UNIX Expo are commercial ventures by commercial corporations, and so are required to make a profit to continue their existance. Surely that changes the economics of how much a tutorial costs? Further, profit should come from the vendors, not the attendees, anyway, in my opinion. The other side of the coin here too is how much are tutorial speakers paid to give talks? Some of the best tutorials I've been two were given by relatively neophyte tutorial speakers who really knew their subjects, and the all time worst tutorial I attended (for about twenty minutes before I walked out in disgust) was by someone that appears to be a 'professional tutorial presenter' who is still 'on the circuit'. Typical fees for a speaker are $1000 / day + board... I agree that SUG seems a bit expensive for a small users group meeting, but then again, I think SUG is an excellent users group (modulo the apalling politics and its peculiar relationship with Sun itself) -- Dave Taylor Editor at Large SunTech Journal taylor@intuitive.com
henry@zoo.toronto.edu (Henry Spencer) (10/25/90)
In article <1375@limbo.Intuitive.Com> taylor@limbo.Intuitive.Com (Dave Taylor) writes: >It's worth pointing out that at least SunExpo and UNIX Expo are >commercial ventures by commercial corporations, and so are required >to make a profit to continue their existance. Surely that changes the >economics of how much a tutorial costs? Probably not much; tutorials are often the single biggest source of revenue even for the non-profit conference organizers (who often have other projects, which don't pay their own way, to support). -- The type syntax for C is essentially | Henry Spencer at U of Toronto Zoology unparsable. --Rob Pike | henry@zoo.toronto.edu utzoo!henry