jet@karazm.math.uh.edu (J Eric Townsend) (05/15/91)
Before I start, I should mention that I'm pres of the Houston User Group for Suns, the LUG that's actually compiling the CD for SUG. In article <25429@as0c.sei.cmu.edu> df@sei.cmu.edu (Dan Farmer) writes: >I asked them, and they said that they were going to sell this CD for $250. >I have no idea if this is standard for these kinds of things, but that >seems *very* high Well, seeing as most places charge $150+ for distribution of a 150Mb 1/4" tape, I think it's farily reasonable. True, individual cost of CD's in production is around 6-10, but there's mastering and time costs involved. As I understand it (that is, what a SUG board member explained to me), SUG is not trying to make a profit on the CD, just as they didn't try to make a profit on previous year's "SUG Tapes". (I've heard rumors that SUG actually took a loss on the earlier tapes.) The target audience of the SUG CD-ROM, IMHO, is sites who don't have Internet/Alternet connections but who want to be able to get all sorts of neat goodies. To buy GNU and X11R4 tapes (two items on the CD-ROM) would cost you well over US$425 ($150 for GNU, $275 for X11R4 tapes, but it appears you have to spend $400 for "tapes, manuals and book", see your X11R4 docs). I don't believe it is the intention of SUG to in any way rip off the sun-owning public by overpricing "free" software. > Heck, they could have probably just slapped my stuff on the CD and >I'd have never said a word, since cops is free anyway, but since they >asked me to sign a legal disclaimer, now I'm interested in this. SUG did that for various reasons -- I'm pretty sure the most important one was the Berne conventions that cause all work to be copyrighted by default. By obtaining a legal statement from you, SUG prevents itself from being sued (as opposed to relying on information in a README file, which wouldn't stand up well in court). >p.s. If you're interested in cops, you can get it via anon-ftp at >cert.sei.cmu.edu, ~ftp/pub/cops/1.02. All for the price of an ftp connection. Har. Have you priced those lately? Jeesh. I'd rather buy a 911 and fill it with 8mm tapes. -- J. Eric Townsend - jet@uh.edu - bitnet: jet@UHOU - vox: (713) 749-2126 Skate UNIX or bleed, boyo...(UNIX is a trademark of Unix Systems Laboratories). [As soon as my Amiga 3000 arrives, it'll be Skate Motorola time!]
phil@eecs.nwu.edu (William LeFebvre) (05/15/91)
Dislcaimer: this is not an official statement by the Sun User Group. This is only the informed comments of one of the board members. In article <1991May14.234340.15041@menudo.uh.edu>, jet@karazm.math.uh.edu (J Eric Townsend) writes: |> The target audience of the SUG CD-ROM, IMHO, is sites who don't |> have Internet/Alternet connections but who want to be able to |> get all sorts of neat goodies. The target audience also includes those sites that, although they may even have an Internet connection, lack the expertise to find, obtain, configure, compile, and install the software on their own. Binaries are being provided on the CD to provide "plug-n-play" functionality for those that need it. Source is also provided, of course. |> I don't believe it is the intention of SUG to in any way rip off the |> sun-owning public by overpricing "free" software. Besides, the software is still available "free" for those who are ambitious enough to find it. We are providing a "value-added" service, if you will. |>Dan Farmer writes: |> > Heck, they could have probably just slapped my stuff on the CD and |> >I'd have never said a word, since cops is free anyway, but since they |> >asked me to sign a legal disclaimer, now I'm interested in this. Mr. Farmer may not have said a word, but others who write software may object to us repackaging and "reselling" it without their consent. We are protecting ourselves from any unnecessary legal liability where copyright laws are concerned. If Dan does not want to have his software on the CD that is his option. We won't think any less of him (I actually think very highly of him, as he probably already knows). William LeFebvre Computing Facilities Manager and Analyst Department of Electrical Engineering and Computer Science Northwestern University <phil@eecs.nwu.edu>
chuck@pluto.Harris-ATD.com (Chuck Musciano) (05/18/91)
I didn't catch the whole thread, but I am concerned about the high cost
of the SUG CD. I contributed several tools to it, and I like the publicity
it brings me and Harris, my employee. I would like to see the CD reach as
many people as possible.
I think CD pricing is currently in the "what the market will bear" range,
rather than the "commodity item we want everyone to have" range. With a CD
costing about $2 to master, I can't justify $248 of overhead for each CD,
especially since you'll probably sell thousands.
As SUG members, can't we see our books, and see how much it cost to make
the CD versus how much revenue was garnered? If the money is put to good use,
I think earning a small profit is fine. I'd like to see the CD cost around
$50 or so, or even less, depending on volume. I have a hard time believing
the CD cost more than $100,000 to produce. You'd only have to sell 2,000
at $50 a pop to break even.
Does the Houston LUG get paid for their work? Were other LUGs allowed
to bid the job? What is the estimated production cost and sales?
--
Chuck Musciano ARPA : chuck@trantor.harris-atd.com
Harris Corporation Usenet: ...!uunet!x102a!trantor!chuck
PO Box 37, MS 3A/1912 AT&T : (407) 727-6131
Melbourne, FL 32902 FAX : (407) 729-3363
A good newspaper is never good enough,
but a lousy newspaper is a joy forever. -- Garrison Keillordinah@lgc.com (Dinah McNutt) (05/18/91)
In article <6296@trantor.harris-atd.com>, chuck@pluto.Harris-ATD.com (Chuck Musciano) writes: |> |> I didn't catch the whole thread, but I am concerned about the high cost |> of the SUG CD. I contributed several tools to it, and I like the publicity |> it brings me and Harris, my employee. I would like to see the CD reach as |> many people as possible. I do as well. And thanks for allowing us to distribute your software. You have written many valuable programs. The price was set before I was elected to the board, but I believe the price was set according to what we thought it would cost ($20,000 and rising :-), what we had charged for the SUG tape in the past, and probably, what we thought the market would bear. This will definitely be considered each and every time we do a project. We have no history with a CD, so next year we will be able to make a more educated decision. |> As SUG members, can't we see our books, and see how much it cost to make |> the CD versus how much revenue was garnered? If the money is put to good use, |> I think earning a small profit is fine. I'd like to see the CD cost around |> $50 or so, or even less, depending on volume. I have a hard time believing |> the CD cost more than $100,000 to produce. You'd only have to sell 2,000 |> at $50 a pop to break even. |> Chuck, there is no good answer to this. We think there is a large enough audience for the CD that the $250 is not a problem. I worked for a major oil company for several years w/o Internet access and something like this would be quite welcome. In fact, we would spend the $$ for the MIT X tapes, gnu software, etc. each year and this is cheaper. There are many SUG members like this who cannot even participate in this discussion because corporate policy does not allow them to have News access. I know this not a satisfactory answer, but we are listening. SUG is also on a tight budget and we cannot afford too many experimental projects that would loose money. Our books need to be made more public and the Boston office is spending quite a bit of time working on financial reports. For historical reasons, our reporting mechanisms have been less than satisfactory. Maybe on of the board members with more tenure can comment. |> Does the Houston LUG get paid for their work? Were other LUGs allowed |> to bid the job? What is the estimated production cost and sales? |> The Houston group is not getting paid for their work. Other LUGs are encouraged to head up the effort next year. (In fact, see the next README for a challenge from the Houston LUG to do thise very thing!) I personally have had to take time away from consulting activities (which pay money!) to work on this project and other members have done the same. I hope I have helped and not muddied the waters further. Dinah McNutt internet: dinah@bcm.tmc.edu | dinah@sug.org | dinah@expert.com
bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein) (05/18/91)
(Note: I am SUG's Treasurer) From: chuck@pluto.Harris-ATD.com (Chuck Musciano) > I didn't catch the whole thread, but I am concerned about the high cost >of the SUG CD. I contributed several tools to it, and I like the publicity >it brings me and Harris, my employee. I would like to see the CD reach as >many people as possible. Well, the note you refer to did try to lay out some of the direct costs involved. It didn't try to go into overhead if for no other reason than this is tricky (for example, what percentage of our various staff's salaries do we charge to the CD? It certainly has taken up a fair amount of some of their time, and will, the paperwork of filling orders, getting permissions, management of the project in general, etc.) > I think CD pricing is currently in the "what the market will bear" range, >rather than the "commodity item we want everyone to have" range. With a CD >costing about $2 to master, I can't justify $248 of overhead for each CD, >especially since you'll probably sell thousands. I would love to think we would sell "thousands", but I don't think that's been the experience at all (with tapes.) A more realistic projection, particularly if we bound it to 6-12 months, is "hundreds". There tends to be this initial bulge of sales, then it slacks off as most people who would want one have bought one, and finally the software becomes more and more outdated and it trickles off. > As SUG members, can't we see our books, and see how much it cost to make >the CD versus how much revenue was garnered? If the money is put to good use, >I think earning a small profit is fine. I'd like to see the CD cost around >$50 or so, or even less, depending on volume. I have a hard time believing >the CD cost more than $100,000 to produce. You'd only have to sell 2,000 >at $50 a pop to break even. And if we only sell 200 then we'd have to charge $500 a pop to break even, using your assumptions. Somewhere between $50-$100K is probably a reasonable estimate of total cost of the project, I know we already have added up over $20K in direct costs. Even the oft-quoted calculation of $2 to master is way off on direct production expenses. The first (and perhaps only) 500 of them are probably over $2000 to have in hand, or $4. And I assume people are not coming here to pick them up? So they have to be put in a mailer, and have postage attached, and someone has to put them in that mailer, etc etc. I would say that $15-$20 each for just those few considerations would be a low estimate, but perhaps moving closer to reality. This is not a high-volume business with cookie-cutter manufacturing plants etc. (I get this sinking feeling someone is going to come back with "well, if it's $15-$20 then how come...", go re-read this whole note, please!) So the most important factor is how many you estimate we will sell. If you estimate "thousands", then you come to one conclusion. If you estimate "hundreds", as I do, the conclusion is quite different. Anyhow, I think if you correct your calculations for the above, and throw in an overhead kicker, and something for us to return to our members, which we certainly hope to do, I think you'll come to the conclusion that the price is justified. I think 500 sales is a pretty optimistic number to work with. At $250 each that's a gross of $125,000, if you grant my figures of up to $100K in costs, with overhead, well, there's not a lot left over (about 20% of gross.) And if we only sell 350 of them we'll be lucky to break even. That's not a lot of room for error. We certainly owe our membership that if we embark on such a project there is a reasonable chance we will not lose money. > Does the Houston LUG get paid for their work? Were other LUGs allowed >to bid the job? No, they don't get paid for their work, so this isn't really relevant. (I think we picked up for some pizza and cokes.) Please feel free to send me (bzs@world.std.com) or the board (board@sug.org) questions. -- -Barry Shein Software Tool & Die | bzs@world.std.com | uunet!world!bzs Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 617-739-0202 | Login: 617-739-WRLD
taylor@limbo.Intuitive.Com (Dave Taylor) (05/21/91)
[note: I've opted not to mail this directly to the SUG board, because
I feel strongly that this discussion should take place in this public
forum for all members to read, rather than privately in email.]
As a fellow contributor to the SUG CDROM (The Elm Mail System) and a
member of SUG, I'd like to add a few thoughts to this important
discussion...
First off, I will very loudly echo Chucks' request that we in
SUG get a complete accounting of the expenses involved with the
production of the CDROM, including projected budgets for the rest
of the process (pressing, shipping, advertising, etc).
Are we planning on offering the CDROM to semi-affiliated groups?
(e.g. perhaps an advert in the Usenix ";login:"? Or some blurb
in the UniForum "UniNews" newsletter/CommUNIXations magazine?
What about the Sun periodicals -- SunWorld, Sun Expert, Sun Observer,
and even the upcoming UnixToday! Sun insert? What about SUN? And
the many clone makers? And SPARC International, and...)
Has the disk been 'beta tested' yet? Putting a vast body of information
onto a platter is a lot more than fiddling with directory structures.
Have we actually had relatively un-technologically-sophisticated people
try to figure out how to navigate/configure software on the disk?
Does it have binaries for the 386i systems? The Sun-3 systems? Or is
it just SPARC? Which libraries? Which compilers? Which OS release?
Did we give SPARC International a chance to perhaps contribute to this
by attempting to run their SPARC Compliance Test on the apps (or even
include the test?!)? It would be of tremendous value to know which
applications on the disk were actually SPARC compliant, rather than just
able to run on a Sun system. Esp. for those that will be buying the
clones as they appear... value added...
Further, this pressing is a long term project, not s short term one; I
expect that the programs on this disk will be worthwhile for years to
come, which means that we should be able to continue to *sell* the disk
for years to come too. Certainly a reasonable structure for pricing
would be for it to drop dramatically in price as a new disk full of all
*new* applications (even if just in release version or SPARC support)
is released, so it's a genuine resource of source code/applications.
Has anyone considered the educational value of this CDROM and talked
with any of the standard educational software distribution channels
about the CDROM? Having hundreds of megabytes of the best Unix
application software, with source code, could be an excellent teaching
tool for colleges, especially those that might not have particularly
good internet connections...
In general, I'd like to, as a member of SUG and contributor, see the
project proposal and plan of execution for this project.
As far as the pricing, I am afraid that I throw my hat in with the
crowd here and agree that it's too darn expensive for what it is.
Indeed, off the top of my head, I surmise that a current college
student would have been thrilled to have received a part-time job
with SUG at, say, $25/hr, to configure, compile, and build the
information that ultimately would go on to the CDROM. And if we
assume that it'll take six months at 20 hrs/week, that's, um, (pops
up a calculator app :-) $13000 salary expense. If we divide it out
and assume that we're going to get, say, only 300 disks sold, then
we're talking about a per-disk cost of the student of $43. Add that
to the mastering cost, the printing cost, and an advertising budget,
and we've got, what, $75/disk?
Further, I will assert that if we honestly don't think that we're
going to sell more than about 100 disks, as has been insinuated by
various folk in this group, then why did we do the project? Or, to
put it more succinctly; if we are funding this project because it's
a cool idea, then why isn't the entire organization covering the
expenses, rather than the buyers? We are, after all, a not-for-profit
org, and it's within the bylines, I suspect. That is, it *can* lose
money for the organization and still be a worthwhile and popular
project.
One thing I found surprising was that SUG bought an entire computer
set up for this project, as was noted in an earlier message. The
word 'boondoggle' flashes into my mind, and I wonder what happens to
the system once the disk is mastered? Is it going to be sold back into
the market, with the profits helping to offset the pre-production costs
and generally lowering the price of the disk? Did anyone, as an
alternative, approach Sun and *ask* for a system on loan for this
project, with the perk to Sun that they'd be able to offer the CDROM to
their direct customers too? (with the added SUG benefit that we could
have a nice advert for the Org not just on the disk, but in the
information itself too. The Mac community does this sorta marketing
gig every day, with great success...)
Finally, this time as a contributor, I believe that I should have been
offered a copy of the CDROM gratis, simply because it was my software
and applications like it that helped make this project possible in the
first place. The selection criteria I suggest: if you signed a contract,
you get a disk. After all, these sort of costs should have been factored
into the original project anyway, so no gerrymandering should be possible.
(that is, if we figured in advance that we'd include 70 applications
on the disk, from 50 different authors, we'd know how many contracts
to send out, and also how many free CDROMs to factor in too. And
after all, since the per-disk production cost is so cheap, an added
50 disks, even including postage, would be negligible here)
I will stop here and await some response, rather than get into some
of the more abstruse marketing aspects of using tape sales as a
predictor of CDROM sales, non-profits advertising, creation of a
commodity, and so on... ;-)
-- Dave Taylor
Intuitive Systems
Mountain View, California
taylor@limbo.intuitive.com or {uunet!}{decwrl,apple}!limbo!taylor