tramp@ihlpa.UUCP (christian) (11/13/85)
Next July i will be traveling to paaris france. Can anyone tell me what type of clothes to take (or not take), and anything else i may pack to make my stay (11 days) easier? Any other comments or helps would appreciated too. Also, i don't speak french, are menus, etc. in english, or should i pick up a french/english book and start trying to stagger through some phrase book? I was at a club med in cancuun last year, and a lot of the employees were french, and if you didn't speak french (fluently) they wouldn't give you the time of day. Should i also expect this in paris (if not more so?). ann christian ihlpa!tramp
carey@uiucdcs.CS.UIUC.EDU (11/15/85)
I talked to a lady last week who travels to France every summer (she is a professor of French). The French are notorious for being very rude to Americans (and other tourists) ESPECIALLY when they attempt to speak French. Recently (don't know the dates), she said, some travel agencies got fed up with the situation and threatened to recommend to American tourists that they NOT go to France. The government started up a "be nice to Americans" campaign enforced with the threat to take away hotel's licenses if their employees were rude to tourists. This apparently had a pretty good impact, so there will be a lot more patience given to tourists. I don't know how many of the menus, etc. are in english. Some friends of mine were there this summer, and could get along OK because one of them speaks French well. She said the people were willing to listen to her French, I don't know if this is because of the new policies, or because she spoke well enough, that they accepted it--maybe a little bit of both.
suze@terak.UUCP (Suzanne Barnett) (11/15/85)
> Next July i will be traveling to paaris france. > Can anyone tell me what type of clothes to take > (or not take), and anything else i may pack to > make my stay (11 days) easier? I haven't been in Paris in July, but in Germany in July you'd need a raincoat and a sweater or jacket (it isn't always cold in the summer, but it does have cool spells, particularly when it rains). > Any other comments or helps would appreciated too. > Also, i don't speak french, are menus, etc. in > english, or should i pick up a french/english > book and start trying to stagger through some > phrase book? > I was at a club med in cancuun last year, and a lot > of the employees were french, and if you didn't speak > french (fluently) they wouldn't give you the time of day. > Should i also expect this in paris (if not more so?). More so. Outside of Paris (far outside, not suburbs) waiters are friendlier and more willing to acknowledge languages other than French. I wasn't impressed by food or restaurants in Paris, but in other parts of France the food is superb. -- ************************************************************** Suzanne Barnett-Scott uucp: ...{decvax,ihnp4,noao,savax,seismo}!terak!suze phone: (602) 998-4800 us mail: CalComp/Sanders Display Products Division (Formerly Terak Corporation) 14151 N 76th street, Scottsdale, AZ 85260
jimb@tekcbi.UUCP (Jim Boland) (11/16/85)
> ann christian writes: > Next July i will be traveling to paris france. > Can anyone tell me what type of clothes to take > (or not take), and anything else i may pack to > make my stay (11 days) easier? > Any other comments or helps would be appreciated too. paris is nice and warm in july. It's been a couple years since I've been there, but I can recall walking along the Champs Elysee and sitting at the sidewalk "refreshment" places for some refreshments wearing pants and light shirt at midnite. Activity during summer months is casually dressed. You might want a light sweater for late evening, however. Coats aren't necessary. Some of your dress depends on what you want to do. You certainly wouldn't dress up along the Seine, nor would you wear shorts and T-shirt at a fine restaurant. Usually when traveling around Europe, I pack ties and jackets for business meetings and purposes, and I am casual for all other purposes. If you plan to visit Notre Dame or other religious places, you should dress appropriately. Take good comfortable walking shoes. Do a lot of walking. It's the best way to see the area. > Also, i don't speak french, are menus, etc. in > english, or should i pick up a french/english > book and start trying to stagger through some > phrase book? Oh-Oh. Could be a big problem. Remember, The French are definitely French. You are indeed at a disadvantage if you can't speak the language. Parisians don't like half efforts, either. You either speak the language or you don't. You may find that some menus in tourist areas have english translations, but that is not common. If you leave the traditional tourist areas, you will find very little English. It's a good experience, though. I know a little French but found it was better to not use it. They seemed to be more bothered by my incorrect interpretation/usage of their language than to not use it. (Don't ruin their language :-) ). I've never used phrase books, so I can't really comment on it. When my poor french and english don't work, I found that I could get along fairly well in europe by using either german or spanish. believe me, it really helps to speak more than one language. > I was at a club med in cancuun last year, and a lot > of the employees were french, and if you didn't speak > french (fluently) they wouldn't give you the time of day. > Should i also expect this in paris (if not more so?). > I was at Club Med in Playa Blanca several years ago and didn't have that problem. However, I think that you will find the situation as bad as (and probably moreso) in Paris. For one thing, they generally don't like americans (non french speaking anybody for that matter) and they don't mind conveying that fact to you. If you realize that and don't act the stereotypical american tourist, you will probably get along fine, however. If you get out of paris and into the countryside, you will find it much better, however, they don't speak english, either. Actually, I think the parisians do, and they understand you very well. However, they act the opposite. It would certainly help if you knew someone there and ran around with them. It sheds a whole new light on the ballgame. Usually, I would be with a rep or some other acquaintance who spoke french. In those situations, I had no problems with the people. I only had problems when alone. (maybe it's me :-) ). Be nice and treat people well. And be wary of taxi drivers. They'll take you the long way if you let them. After paris, go to munich (moenchen) and/or austria. how about london? holland is nice in july. so is stockholm.
buchbind@agrigene.UUCP (11/18/85)
> > and if you didn't speak > > french (fluently) they wouldn't give you the time of day. > > Should i also expect this in paris (if not more so?). > More so. Outside of Paris (far outside, not suburbs) waiters > are friendlier and more willing to acknowledge languages other > than French. I wasn't impressed by food or restaurants in > Paris, but in other parts of France the food is superb. But remember, we're talking about a foreign country. Don't assume they will know English or have menus printed in English. (How many US resteraunts, even in big cities, can handle non-Engish speaking tourists? And in 4 different languages? France is surrounded by countries that speak other languages than English - e.g. Spanish, Italian, & German.) If you are going for a visit and have enough time, take a class in the language. If you will be visiting several countries, at least learn a bit of the language of one of them. Don't rely on a phrase book, as pronounciations of words can be VERY different in different languages. (E.g. in French there are many letters that just aren't pronounced and the rules can vary depending on the part of speach!) -- Barry Buchbinder (608)221-5000 Agrigenetics Corp.; 5649 E. Buckeye Rd.; Madison WI 53716 USA {seismo!uwvax!|decvax|ihnp4}!nicmad!agrigene!buchbind
abc@brl-sem.ARPA (Brint Cooper ) (11/19/85)
Lots of misinformation about France has appeared here recently. My
experience is that you'll find what you expect. If you make a
reasonable attempt to make yourself understood, French people will meet
you more than halfway. Remember, in France as in most European
countries, nearly everyone born since 1945 has studied English for
several years.
Further, I found the French to be warm and friendly and generally not
anti-American.
Now I know Americans who will argue both these points. These are the
same Americans who resent French nationalistic feelings by French people
but who feel that Americans should be more "patriotic!" I suppose they
want the French to bow and scrape forever because of WW II, not
realizing that we had our own axe to grind.
Finally, I found proportionately more English-speaking folk in
Paris than in the rural southwest, no doubt because Paris has a more
international transient population.
Brint Cooper
ARPA: abc@brl.arpa
UUCP: ...{seismo,decvax,cbosgd}!brl-tgr!abc
--
Brint Cooper
ARPA: abc@brl.arpa
UUCP: ...{seismo,decvax,cbosgd}!brl-tgr!abcdavel@zehntel.UUCP (David Longerbeam) (11/19/85)
> > Further, I found the French to be warm and friendly and generally not > anti-American. > > Now I know Americans who will argue both these points. These are the > same Americans who resent French nationalistic feelings by French people > but who feel that Americans should be more "patriotic!" I suppose they > want the French to bow and scrape forever because of WW II, not > realizing that we had our own axe to grind. > . . > . > Brint Cooper > > ARPA: abc@brl.arpa > UUCP: ...{seismo,decvax,cbosgd}!brl-tgr!abc > I am an American who will argue both these points, and I am NOT the kind who thinks that Americans should be more "patriotic", nor do I resent French nationalism. While I found many French people to be warm and friendly, (especially those who were ALSO travellers, or who I met through personal contacts), the average Frenchman/Frenchwoman I met on the street, in AND out of Paris, was very often rude and impatient. Although, one has to admit that one can find the same anti-tourist attitudes in San Francisco, for example, as one finds in Paris. It must be very disconcerting to have one's beautiful home city be overrun by loud, gawking tourists every season. And the "Ugly American" does exist. -- David Longerbeam @ Zehntel Automation Systems, Walnut Creek, CA {ihnp4, ucbvax}!zehntel!davel > Brint Cooper > > ARPA: abc@brl.arpa > UUCP: ...{seismo,decvax,cbosgd}!brl-tgr!abc *** REPLACE THIS LINE WITH YOUR MESSAGE ***
mazlack@ernie.BERKELEY.EDU (Lawrence J. &) (11/20/85)
>Lots of misinformation about France has appeared here recently. My >experience is that you'll find what you expect. If you make a >reasonable attempt to make yourself understood, French people will meet >you more than halfway. Remember, in France as in most European >countries, nearly everyone born since 1945 has studied English for >several years. > >Further, I found the French to be warm and friendly and generally not >anti-American. For the most part, I definately agree. I have been spending 2-3 months/year in Europe for the last 15 years. (Almost anyone can do this, if you are willing to give up the income.) My language skills are pretty marginal - a little French, a little German, a little Spanish (little means little, less than 100 words). I love Paris, it is a great place! I suspect that the people who have troubles there have trouble because of American arrogance. Many Americans (not Canadians), assume that (1) they are God's gift to the rest of the world, (2) all that is important in the world is money, (3) cultural values are of low importance, and (4) English is (or should be) spoken by all. They often tend to view their relationships with others in this framework. In my view, they should stay home and watch Dallas. Otherwise, when they get to Paris, they will find that their arrogance causes French arrogance in response. And the French know how to be arrogant. Actually, it isn't only the French who don't accept the American (items 1..4) of the world, quite a lot of others don't. But, others tend to ignore the American pretensions, where the French (especially the Parisians), twist it around and bounce it right back. I do agree with the suggestion of avoiding extended discussions using poor French in Paris. Try English first - many shop keepers understand it. However, if you try French first, they may insist that you pronounce it reasonably correctly before understanding. Use a dictionary to figure out menues. ...Larry Mazlack MAZLACK@ERNIE.BERKELEY.EDU
suze@terak.UUCP (Suzanne Barnett) (11/20/85)
> > > and if you didn't speak > > > french (fluently) they wouldn't give you the time of day. > > > Should i also expect this in paris (if not more so?). > > More so. Outside of Paris (far outside, not suburbs) waiters > > are friendlier and more willing to acknowledge languages other > > than French. I wasn't impressed by food or restaurants in > > Paris, but in other parts of France the food is superb. > > But remember, we're talking about a foreign country. Don't assume > they will know English or have menus printed in English. (How many Between us we speak English, Italian, German and Spanish. The problem wasn't that they didn't understand other languages, but their attitude. As soon as they realized we were not French, the waiters became very snotty. We didn't expect to see English on the menus. In general we could read the menus okay. Our pronounciation was poor, bnut since we pointed out the items as we said them, it shouldn't have been hard to understand what we wanted. Apparently it wasn't, because we never got something we hadn't ordered. The problem was getting waited on at all, and in a couple of cases, getting our food once the order was given to the waiter or waitress. > US resteraunts, even in big cities, can handle non-Engish speaking > tourists? And in 4 different languages? France is surrounded by > countries that speak other languages than English - e.g. Spanish, > Italian, & German.) If you are going for a visit and have enough > time, take a class in the language. If you will be visiting several We lived in Germany; we went to Paris for the weekend. I'm dardned if I'm going to learn a language for a weekend trip. (That doesn't mean there aren't a lot of other good reasons for learning a language, or that if the visit will be considerably longer it isn't a good idea.) > Don't rely on a phrase book, as pronounciations of words can be VERY > different in different languages. (E.g. in French there are many > letters that just aren't pronounced and the rules can vary depending > on the part of speach!) I disagree. For short trips a phrase book is excellant because it gives you the correct phrases for common things you are likely to want to say. Most of them have information on how to pronounce the various words. Anywhere except Paris I've had no problem learning new words or pronounciations, my willingness to learn seemed to favourably dispose the natives to help. -- ************************************************************** Suzanne Barnett-Scott uucp: ...{decvax,ihnp4,noao,savax,seismo}!terak!suze phone: (602) 998-4800 us mail: CalComp/Sanders Display Products Division (Formerly Terak Corporation) 14151 N 76th street, Scottsdale, AZ 85260
eom@rti-sel.UUCP (Estelle Mabry) (11/21/85)
> Next July i will be traveling to paaris france. > Can anyone tell me what type of clothes to take > (or not take), and anything else i may pack to > make my stay (11 days) easier? > Any other comments or helps would appreciated too. > Also, i don't speak french, are menus, etc. in > english, or should i pick up a french/english > book and start trying to stagger through some > phrase book? > I was at a club med in cancuun last year, and a lot > of the employees were french, and if you didn't speak > french (fluently) they wouldn't give you the time of day. > Should i also expect this in paris (if not more so?). > > ann christian > ihlpa!tramp Francophile that I am, I'll stand up for the French. I spent two weeks in Paris last May and had an absolutely marvelous time. I speak restaurant French impeccably (I know what most dishes are, how they are prepared, etc.) while my every day French allows me to check into hotels, ask directions, deal with shopping, etc. It certainly won't support a philosophical discussion! I found English spoken in many places--all hotels I stayed in, many restaurants, many shops (especially the big ones). However, I found that my attempts at communicating in French were appreciated. You must remember that Paris in May will be filled with tourists from around the world--not just American tourists. I think this is one reason the French get testy with tourists. I was in a restaurant in Paris where the waiter was horribly rude to some French tourisits but not to us--maybe he was just in a bad mood. I'll be glad to send you names and addresses of wonderful inexpensive to moderately expensive hotels and restaurants. I'll also provide you lists of what is not to be missed that you might if no one tells you to go. Let me know. Estelle Mabry
dror@uiucdcsb.CS.UIUC.EDU (11/24/85)
/* Written 5:08 pm Nov 15, 1985 by jimb@tekcbi.UUCP in uiucdcsb:net.travel */ > ann christian writes: > Next July i will be traveling to paris france. > Can anyone tell me what type of clothes to take > (or not take), and anything else i may pack to > make my stay (11 days) easier? > Any other comments or helps would be appreciated too. paris is nice and warm in july. It's been a couple years since I've been there, but I can recall walking along the Champs Elysee and sitting at the sidewalk "refreshment" places for some refreshments wearing pants and light shirt at midnite. Activity during summer months is casually dressed. You might want a light sweater for late evening, however. Coats aren't necessary. Some of your dress depends on what you want to do. You certainly wouldn't dress up along the Seine, nor would you wear shorts and T-shirt at a fine restaurant. Usually when traveling around Europe, I pack ties and jackets for business meetings and purposes, and I am casual for all other purposes. If you plan to visit Notre Dame or other religious places, you should dress appropriately. Take good comfortable walking shoes. Do a lot of walking. It's the best way to see the area. > Also, i don't speak french, are menus, etc. in > english, or should i pick up a french/english > book and start trying to stagger through some > phrase book? Oh-Oh. Could be a big problem. Remember, The French are definitely French. You are indeed at a disadvantage if you can't speak the language. Parisians don't like half efforts, either. You either speak the language or you don't. You may find that some menus in tourist areas have english translations, but that is not common. If you leave the traditional tourist areas, you will find very little English. It's a good experience, though. I know a little French but found it was better to not use it. They seemed to be more bothered by my incorrect interpretation/usage of their language than to not use it. (Don't ruin their language :-) ). I've never used phrase books, so I can't really comment on it. When my poor french and english don't work, I found that I could get along fairly well in europe by using either german or spanish. believe me, it really helps to speak more than one language. > I was at a club med in cancuun last year, and a lot > of the employees were french, and if you didn't speak > french (fluently) they wouldn't give you the time of day. > Should i also expect this in paris (if not more so?). > I was at Club Med in Playa Blanca several years ago and didn't have that problem. However, I think that you will find the situation as bad as (and probably moreso) in Paris. For one thing, they generally don't like americans (non french speaking anybody for that matter) and they don't mind conveying that fact to you. If you realize that and don't act the stereotypical american tourist, you will probably get along fine, however. If you get out of paris and into the countryside, you will find it much better, however, they don't speak english, either. Actually, I think the parisians do, and they understand you very well. However, they act the opposite. It would certainly help if you knew someone there and ran around with them. It sheds a whole new light on the ballgame. Usually, I would be with a rep or some other acquaintance who spoke french. In those situations, I had no problems with the people. I only had problems when alone. (maybe it's me :-) ). Be nice and treat people well. And be wary of taxi drivers. They'll take you the long way if you let them. After paris, go to munich (moenchen) and/or austria. how about london? holland is nice in july. so is stockholm. /* End of text from uiucdcsb:net.travel */
sjl@amdahl.UUCP (Steve Langdon) (12/02/85)
I have been in Paris twice this year, once for a few days on vacation, and
once for two weeks to attend an ISO meeting. Even though I have forgotten
the French I learn at school I enjoyed both visits. I suspect that much of
the rudeness attributed to the French is legend, and most of the rest is
caused by people who are not conscious enough about their own inadequacy
when they expect someone else to speak English because they do not speak
French.
--
Stephen J. Langdon ...!{ihnp4,cbosgd,hplabs,sun}!amdahl!sjl
[ The article above is not an official statement from any organization
in the known universe. ]boren@randvax.UUCP (Pat Boren) (12/03/85)
I was in Paris twice this past September, a couple weeks apart. We had a great time our first pass through -- got along knowing really no French, but not expecting the Parisiens to speak English. Sometimes I'd use a Spanish word, sometimes I'd point, and other times I'd simply butcher a French word, but I always managed to communicate. (I only used English if I was spoken to in English first, which many waiters did.) Also, I was in a happy mood and tried to smile and act pleasant, and I'm sure that helped. Our second pass through was every tourist's nightmare. At the train stations and tourist offices, the information booths have signs up saying "English spoken," but do you think that applies to any of the rude bunch on duty? A typical situation: you ask in English which metro to take to Versailles, and you get an answer in French like "gauche" -- left. The left metro?! You try for a further explanation, and the guy leaves his post for another customer behind you. I have friends who swear Parisiens are ok, and I have friends who will never return there (and in fact, cut short their stay). So, I guess it just depends, and I don't know on what. -- Patricia Boren decvax!randvax!boren boren@rand-unix.arpa
mickey@cca.UUCP (Mickey Levine) (12/05/85)
Although I expounded at length about my travels to Paris this past spring, I have to put another comment in. 1. I am not an ugly 'patriotic' American. I carried a phrase book (Berlitz) and I speak Hebrew and my wife speaks German. We drove around France for 5 days before going to Paris. We NEVER had a problem with English/snotty attitudes until we got to Paris. 2. Paris is filled with tourists from all over the world. I believe the Parisians have a dislike for all tourists. 3. Most 2+ Star hotels have staff that speak some English, and associated resteraunts also had English speaking waiters. 4. My most enjoyable part of my stay was when I met a business associate (Parisian) who did the 'translating' for me. This allowed me to see the 'side' of Paris I was unable to find as a tourist. 5. Most civilized countries in the world rank English as the number 2 language (Germans and Israelis are required to learn it as part of their schooling). See #2. 6. Despite the problems of my first trip, I would go again. It's a beautiful city with lots to do. I would do more preperation, though. Never afraid to put my 2 francs in, Mickey Levine decvax!cca!mickey
julian@osu-eddie.UUCP (Julian Gomez) (12/09/85)
> I have been in Paris twice this year, once for a few days on vacation, and > once for two weeks to attend an ISO meeting. Even though I have forgotten > the French I learn at school I enjoyed both visits. I suspect that much of > the rudeness attributed to the French is legend, and most of the rest is > caused by people who are not conscious enough about their own inadequacy > when they expect someone else to speak English because they do not speak > French. > Stephen J. Langdon ...!{ihnp4,cbosgd,hplabs,sun}!amdahl!sjl They're rude. I don't expect French people to speak English; it's their country, after all. So I learned enough French to get by. I had no problems in the south of France, but in Paris they acted like I was gibbering. The French are very snotty about their language. A few years ago they decided that "computer" was impure and that henceforth "ordinateur" was to be the word. They are now the only language (of a culture with some technological base) in the world that doesn't recognize "computer." And on purpose, to boot. American English is my native language and I've understood the accents from people literally all over the world without any problem. Of course, in contrast to the French, I was willing to put some effort into listening to them and attempting to figure out what they meant. I have never adopted the attitude that since they don't speak English like a native they have nothing to say. In direct contrast to Parisians, who are quite happy to take my money but not my words. -- "If Chaos himself sat umpire, what better could he do?" Julian "a tribble took it" Gomez Computer Graphics Research Group, The Ohio State University {ucbvax,decvax}!cbosg!osu-eddie!julian
monique@ucla-cs.UUCP (12/10/85)
> > Next July i will be traveling to paaris france. > > Can anyone tell me what type of clothes to take > > (or not take), and anything else i may pack to > > make my stay (11 days) easier? > > Any other comments or helps would appreciated too. > > Also, i don't speak french, are menus, etc. in > > english, or should i pick up a french/english > > book and start trying to stagger through some > > phrase book? > > I was at a club med in cancuun last year, and a lot > > of the employees were french, and if you didn't speak > > french (fluently) they wouldn't give you the time of day. > > Should i also expect this in paris (if not more so?). > > > > ann christian > > ihlpa!tramp > > > Francophile that I am, I'll stand up for the French. I spent two weeks in > Paris last May and had an absolutely marvelous time. I speak restaurant > French impeccably (I know what most dishes are, how they are prepared, etc.) > while my every day French allows me to check into hotels, ask directions, deal > with shopping, etc. It certainly won't support a philosophical discussion! > > I found English spoken in many places--all hotels I stayed in, many > restaurants, many shops (especially the big ones). However, I found that my > attempts at communicating in French were appreciated. > > You must remember that Paris in May will be filled with tourists from around > the world--not just American tourists. I think this is one reason the French > get testy with tourists. I was in a restaurant in Paris where the waiter was > horribly rude to some French tourisits but not to us--maybe he was just in a > bad mood. > > I'll be glad to send you names and addresses of wonderful inexpensive to > moderately expensive hotels and restaurants. I'll also provide you lists of > what is not to be missed that you might if no one tells you to go. Let me > know. > > Estelle Mabry I have been in restaurants in the US where many waiters were rude. I have been in public buses where the drivers were rude. I have just been walking on the beach where I met Americans who were very rude. I have not found a French restaurant in the States where everyone spoke French. In fact, no one in the US will try to understand if I speak French. I also have found rude waiters in France, in Italy, in England. Do you ever get angry? Waiters or anyone else do too. In France, most waiters are not paid; they live strictly on their tips. I am French and I live in the US. I see the same types of people in both countries: the nice ones and the sour ones. American travelers, you only see yourselves as the tourist in a foreign country; pretend you are a tourist in the US!!!!! No one speaks many languages. Let me tell you, when I first came to this country, my French accent when I spoke English scared ignorant Americans and their reaction was nastiness. When I go to a country of which I do not speak the language, I always learn a few words before going and I carry a dictionary. It helps every one. Weatherwise: it may be warm in May, it may be cold. So carry a coat and a raincoat. Je vous souhaite de ne rencontrer que de gentils Francais. Il y en a beaucoup, croyez-moi, qui aiment bien les Americains.
hagens@uwvax.UUCP (Rob Hagens) (12/12/85)
> not found a French restaurant in the States where everyone spoke French. > In fact, no one in the US will try to understand if I speak French. I agree -- most anyone you meet on the street (in US) will not try to understand your French. However, you must realize that the US is not surrounded by many non-English speaking countries. Regarding Canada, we can understand most hosers up in the great white north :-). Mexico of course uses Spanish, and if you look around you will find a great many signs in both English and Spanish. Ever see a multi-lingual phone in France, or any where else in Europe? When I was in France, I found most every one spoke English. I had one bad experience in a local bar in Paris, but that was offset by the fact that in another bar (in Paris), I tried to order two wines, and got two beers and a wine, and the waiter (politely) exchanged them for what I really wanted. Now, French trains are another story (they need to take a lesson from the DB on how to run a train). My brother had a different experience in France. In the international section of the Paris airport, he approached a police officer and asked "Where is the bathroom." The officer shook his head, so my brother asked again in German, and then in Spanish - still no luck. Finally he pointed toward his fly and shouted PISS. Somehow, the officer seemed to understand. Rob Hagens -- Rob Hagens @ wisconsin ...!{allegra,heurikon,ihnp4,seismo,sfwin,ucbvax,uwm-evax}!uwvax!hagens hagens@wisc-rsch.arpa
mazlack@ernie.BERKELEY.EDU (Lawrence J. &) (12/16/85)
>Ever see a multi-lingual phone in France, or any where else in Europe? Yes. Actually most European telephone systems have multi-lingual operators. Call up and ask for help in one of the main European tongues and you will get it. >My brother had a different experience in France. In the international >section of the Paris airport, he approached a police officer and asked >"Where is the bathroom." The officer shook his head, so my brother asked >again in German, and then in Spanish - still no luck. Finally he pointed >toward his fly and shouted PISS. Somehow, the officer seemed to understand. Acutually, this is another example of American pruience. I doubt if your brother wanted to take a BATH, he wanted to PISS. If he had asked for a toilet (which is what it is), most likely, he would have been satisfactorily directed. (Many European toilets are in separate rooms from bath tubs and showers, and vica versa.) Actually, if the word "toilet" is too embarresing to use, use the generally accepted European WC - which is an English abbreviation for Water Closet. ...Larry Mazlack
kolling@decwrl.UUCP (Karen Kolling) (12/16/85)
>>My brother had a different experience in France. In the international >>section of the Paris airport, he approached a police officer and asked >>"Where is the bathroom." The officer shook his head, so my brother asked >>again in German, and then in Spanish - still no luck. Finally he pointed >>toward his fly and shouted PISS. Somehow, the officer seemed to understand. > >Acutually, this is another example of American pruience. I doubt if your >brother wanted to take a BATH, he wanted to PISS. If he had asked for >a toilet (which is what it is), most likely, he would have been >satisfactorily directed. (Many European toilets are in separate rooms from >bath tubs and showers, and vica versa.) And don't ask for a "restroom" in England or Denmark, or you'll be surrounded by concerned people who think you've become ill and need a place to lie down. (In France, they'd probably ignore you if you were dying in front of their eyes.)
neves@uwai.UUCP (12/17/85)
> > >My brother had a different experience in France. In the international >section of the Paris airport, he approached a police officer and asked >"Where is the bathroom." The officer shook his head, so my brother asked >again in German, and then in Spanish - still no luck. Finally he pointed >toward his fly and shouted PISS. Somehow, the officer seemed to understand. My wife tells me that your brother is lucky that his crude term for urination has French roots. Pisser means to piss in French. -- David Neves Computer Sciences Department University of Wisconsin-Madison Usenet: {allegra,heurikon,ihnp4,seismo,uwm-evax}!uwvax!neves Arpanet: neves@uwvax
srradia@watmath.UUCP (sanjay Radia) (12/19/85)
I lived in Paris for about 2 years and had never encountered someone
being rude to me for speaking English or bad French. When I arrived, I knew
very little French and had to look for an appartment (a very difficult
task even if you speak very good French) and settle in. I never had
any problems with my broken French. At work people were very helpful
and kind as I learnt the language. At times, I had to switch to English
and the people who knew the language were very cooperative. There are rude
people in every country and people have a tendency to generalize from one or
two bad incidents. As a foreigner in France, I had less problems than
my parents have here in Canada. Granted they speak English with an accent,
but their English was ten times better when they arrived in Canada than
my French was when I arrived in France.
One thing you have to understand is that the English language and the American
culture is affecting the culture of many countries and often
people will get defensive in order to preserve their culture and language.
This is because you lose your culture as soon as you lose the language.
Many people in north america of the English origin have never had the
experience of loosing their language and culture. If you keep this
in mind you will find yourself being more sympathetic to foreign
cultures and languages, and in turn you will find that foreigners are
more sympathetic to you.
--
sanjay
UUCP: ...!{ utzoo,decvax,ihnp4,allegra}!watmath!srradia
ARPA: srradia%watmath%waterloo.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa
CSNET: srradia%watmath@waterloo.CSNETRBD@PSUVM.BITNET (12/22/85)
I have never been to France but I have been to a number of French speaking
places, ie: Montreal, St. Bart, St Martin. I have consistently found the
people to be extremely rude. The solution for me is simple. I avoid going
to such places whenever I can. If they don't like me that's their perogative.
Mine is to take my tourist dollars elsewhere.
-- Larry Riffle 814-863-0422 (work) 2-6187 (home)
:akgua,allegra,ihnp4,cbosgd:!psuvax1!psuvm.bitnet!rbd (uucp)
rbd@psuvm (bitnet)
rbd%psuvm.bitnet@wiscvm.arpa (arpa)
rrizzo@bbncca.ARPA (Ron Rizzo) (12/27/85)
I've been to Paris twice: in 1972, first time in Europe, innocent of French,
but eager for experience, I collected Incidents, which amused rather than
annoyed me --
1 About 9 pm one night, trying to cross to the other side of a narrow
leftbank street lined with parked cars literally bumper-to-bumper, I
tiptoed over a rubber bumper guard but my pants-cuff caught on the end
of the bumper as I jumped off, causing me to momentarily stagger, but
without falling. Just then, a young Frenchman standing nearby with his
date on his arm made a grimace and said in loud English, "How disgusting!
A drunken American."
2 On my 2nd or 3rd visit to art-nouveau Restaurant Julien near the Arc de
Saint-Denis, another young Frenchman of commanding girth entered and
sat with his dining companion at the next table, a brass rail separating
us. When he noticed that I was drawing pictures of heads of lettuce on
the paper tablecloth in a vain attempt to tell the teasing waiter what
kind of salad I wanted, he became suddenly enraged, and launched into
a tirade (entirely in French) that lasted until I finished eating (one
hour). From his tone, gestures and expression I gathered he was cursing
me with great vehemence, his face turning at times beet-red. I felt very
merry (I almost started doodling again just to annoy him), because the
language barrier made him incapable of communicating to me a single
insult. (While this went on, two couples from Texas had arrived and
ordered an entire dinner in French spoken in a Dallas accent that made
absolutely no concessions to French phonetics. Their waiter was mine.
After a lengthy wait, the waiter appeared bearing an enormous ceramic
bowl, out of which towered long stalks ending in large claws: some kind
of exotic crab. He plunked the bowl down on the table and disappeared,
as the four diners stared at it & each other, utterly perplexed.)
In 1982, still devoid of French despite a months' cramming with a phrasebook
and grammar but accompanied by a friend who managed creaky fluency, I met
with only friendly & solicitous reactions, even when by myself, and despite
a complex about foreign languages I'd developed on this trip (which began
in Cologne, where I realized with horror I'd completely lost my 3 years of
college German). This was pleasant if unexpected, for by the early 80s,
Paris had become pretty dusty & dirty, the area around Boulevard St. Michel
looking very batteredd, and everyone seemed inebriated all the time.
Cheers,
Ron Rizzoken@rochester.UUCP (Ipse dixit) (12/28/85)
On the lighter side, I'm told the trick is to start the conversation in
some incomprehensible non-=European tougue, then after a while they
will attempt to help out in English. Of course it helps to look
exotic.
I am Oriental but I didn't have to resort to this - my French is
passable. But I suspect I got a little more consideration on account of
my looks. Maybe they thought I was one of the resettled Vietnamese...
I'm sure some of the horror stories are true, but on the other hand,
like in newspapers, good incidents are underreported. I've had many of
those. My attitude is, if other people want to act like boors and
snobs, that is their right. Moi, I'll watch my own manners.
Ken
--
UUCP: ..!{allegra,decvax,seismo}!rochester!ken ARPA: ken@rochester.arpa
USnail: Dept. of Comp. Sci., U. of Rochester, NY 14627. Voice: Ken!kds@intelca.UUCP (Ken Shoemaker) (01/02/86)
> I have never been to France but I have been to a number of French speaking > places, ie: Montreal, St. Bart, St Martin. I have consistently found the > people to be extremely rude. The solution for me is simple. I avoid going > to such places whenever I can. If they don't like me that's their perogative. > Mine is to take my tourist dollars elsewhere. > > > -- Larry Riffle 814-863-0422 (work) 2-6187 (home) actually, in my experiences in Paris, I found that the Parisians were rude to everyone, especially other Parisians. Still, I'd much rather be in Paris and not be able to speak French than in New York and not be able to speak English...One hint about European travel, people everywhere seem to be a bit more tolerant if you go in the off season. -- remember, if you do it yourself, sooner or later you'll need a bigger hammer Ken Shoemaker, Santa Clara, Ca. {pur-ee,hplabs,amd,scgvaxd,dual,qantel}!intelca!kds ---the above views are personal.